• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

How do you check the I.D of any rail employee checking your tickets?

Status
Not open for further replies.

spag23

On Moderation
Joined
4 Nov 2012
Messages
793
From what has been said above, I can now see why anyone (not just the OP) would be suspicious of an itinerant stranger asking them to touch their personal card (ie not a TOC-issued smart card) onto a reader they could reasonably consider to be capable of taking a payment. Especially from someone wearing "civvies" or with minimal (and easily forged) Company ID.
I suggest that the TOCs should quickly develop a policy towards this. Perhaps they could reimburse anyone who gets scammed this way. It is the TOC's responsibility, after all; they introduced this system and kit, and need to police their trains to prevent/deter any such fraudulent impersonations.
Obviously staff manning gates are in a different position.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Cloud Strife

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2014
Messages
1,796
I don't like the attitude of some of the inspectors, who seem to think anyone asking questions of the process (such as asking for ID or reluctant to hand over their bank card) are worthy of a PF.

Seen it myself many times.

A friend is very clued up on the law, and when confronted with an RPI who didn't want to show his ID, he immediately cautioned him. My friend read him the standard PACE caution, then informed him that he would be taking a statement from him about why he didn't show his ID when requested to do so.

The RPI went, in a nutshell, absolutely beserk. He threatened my friend with prison and all the rest of it, and it was all written down and noted. After the RPI came to his senses and realised that my friend was making meticulous notes, he backed down and offered to let it go. My friend, smelling blood this point, told him that it had gone too far for that, and that he wanted him to check and sign the notes so that further action could be taken. The RPI stormed off, but my friend then went and obtained a copy of the CCTV while informing the TOC that he was taking the matter further.

A week later, he got a phone call from a lawyer at the TOC, asking him to drop it and that they would offer adequate compensation for the distress caused. The adequate compensation turned out to be a free season ticket for a year, which tells you just how much he had them spooked.

A passenger is quite within their right to check the ID and verify it by any means necessary.
 

spag23

On Moderation
Joined
4 Nov 2012
Messages
793
A friend is very clued up on the law, and when confronted with an RPI who didn't want to show his ID, he immediately cautioned him. My friend read him the standard PACE caution, then informed him that he would be taking a statement from him about why he didn't show his ID when requested to do so.

The RPI went, in a nutshell, absolutely beserk. He threatened my friend with prison and all the rest of it, and it was all written down and noted. After the RPI came to his senses and realised that my friend was making meticulous notes, he backed down and offered to let it go. My friend, smelling blood this point, told him that it had gone too far for that, and that he wanted him to check and sign the notes so that further action could be taken. The RPI stormed off, but my friend then went and obtained a copy of the CCTV while informing the TOC that he was taking the matter further.

A week later, he got a phone call from a lawyer at the TOC, asking him to drop it and that they would offer adequate compensation for the distress caused. The adequate compensation turned out to be a free season ticket for a year, which tells you just how much he had them spooked.

A passenger is quite within their right to check the ID and verify it by any means necessary.
Wow!
It would be too much to expect the TOC to dock the RPI's wages accordingly.
Though I reckon videoing such an episode on your phone would make the case even more cast iron!
But that might moderate the RPI's conduct.
So the best scenario might be for a concerned bystander to discretely record the encounter.
On that basis, I'll subtly go into record in anticipation whenever I see an RPI entering our carriage.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,223
Location
Bristol
A passenger is quite within their right to check the ID and verify it
Totally agree
by any means necessary.
No. It would not be right to assault the RPI (or even just to reach forward) to obtain their ID, for instance. What your friend did sounds absolutely the most sensible action by writing down notes and remaining calm while refusing to be intimidated. Not all of us would have been able to manage all 3 at once in that situation! Arguably the caution may have been provocative, but I wasn't there so won't pass judgement.
 

Cloud Strife

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2014
Messages
1,796
Totally agree

No. It would not be right to assault the RPI (or even just to reach forward) to obtain their ID, for instance. What your friend did sounds absolutely the most sensible action by writing down notes and remaining calm while refusing to be intimidated. Not all of us would have been able to manage all 3 at once in that situation! Arguably the caution may have been provocative, but I wasn't there so won't pass judgement.

Oh, of course, what I meant was that they're quite within their right to refuse to cooperate with the RPI until they can be positively identified. In a past life as a school teacher, I used to reinforce this with teenagers: do not blindly trust anyone, no matter who they say they are. Even with the police, if you're alone, it's not a bad idea to call the emergency services to verify that the person is who they say they are. I've done this before when stopped by an unmarked car late at night: I called the police and asked them to tell me where the nearest police station was, and that I'd head there rather than stop for an unmarked car.

The thing with my friend is that he works in an industry where calmness and precision is valued. You simply cannot wind him up, and we always say that he has ice water flowing through his veins in terms of his ability to stay calm.

I agree that the caution was provocative, but it certainly did the trick. The funniest thing was that he had a perfectly valid ticket, but he's the type of person that will verify everything about a given situation. As soon as the RPI refused to allow him to inspect his ID, it was like waving a red rag to a bull.

Wow!
It would be too much to expect the TOC to dock the RPI's wages accordingly.
Though I reckon videoing such an episode on your phone would make the case even more cast iron!
But that might moderate the RPI's conduct.
So the best scenario might be for a concerned bystander to discretely record the encounter.
On that basis, I'll subtly go into record in anticipation whenever I see an RPI entering our carriage.

One good option is that if you're aware of any potential for dispute, then it's worth taking a recording device, turning it on and audibly stating your intentions, along with giving the time and date and describing the situation.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,063
How would you verify it ?
By ringing the company named on it?
Banks say "Do NOT continue a potentially scam call on the original phone, ring us from another phone and check whether it is genuine."
I would have thought that a RPI should be trained and prepared for people cross-checking that it was a genuine challenge. I am extermely careful what is in the wallet/folder that I produce when a ticket check happens.
Having said that, most of my travelling recently has been on LNR and Avanti WC north of Crewe and Merseyrail services and the ticket check has been announced over the tannoy and the person in the coach is usually in uniform.
Not sure how I would react on London Overground with a different (or no) intro though...
A
 

BJames

Established Member
Joined
27 Jan 2018
Messages
1,359
A friend is very clued up on the law, and when confronted with an RPI who didn't want to show his ID, he immediately cautioned him. My friend read him the standard PACE caution, then informed him that he would be taking a statement from him about why he didn't show his ID when requested to do so.

The RPI went, in a nutshell, absolutely beserk. He threatened my friend with prison and all the rest of it, and it was all written down and noted. After the RPI came to his senses and realised that my friend was making meticulous notes, he backed down and offered to let it go. My friend, smelling blood this point, told him that it had gone too far for that, and that he wanted him to check and sign the notes so that further action could be taken. The RPI stormed off, but my friend then went and obtained a copy of the CCTV while informing the TOC that he was taking the matter further.

A week later, he got a phone call from a lawyer at the TOC, asking him to drop it and that they would offer adequate compensation for the distress caused. The adequate compensation turned out to be a free season ticket for a year, which tells you just how much he had them spooked.

A passenger is quite within their right to check the ID and verify it by any means necessary.
I have to say I really enjoyed reading this and a good, surprising result from the TOC. It goes back to this:
I don't like the attitude of some of the inspectors, who seem to think anyone asking questions of the process (such as asking for ID or reluctant to hand over their bank card) are worthy of a PF.

Seen it myself many times.
...and while I understand why RPI's are suspicious of people who challenge them (either for potentially making trouble/buying time etc) the need to remain professional is always there and you cannot assume that everyone has bad intentions. It's definitely healthy to be wary of other people until you are certain who they are.
 
Last edited:

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,398
Location
UK
By ringing the company named on it?

Let's say you ask for ID. The person on question shows you what appears to be a TOC I'd pass. It has no specific security features and just has the TOC name, a headshot, and the employees name. Potentially their role.

Getting past the obvious issue of not knowing what a TOC pass looks like you still decide to verify it by ringing the TOC.

Who do you ring ? Just saying "ring the TOC" is meaningless. Would the person on the other end of the phone be able to confirm that the person works there ? How would they do that ? Would that person be able to access an employee database and check the name and what they look like over the phone ? What about GDPR ? Would some random employee on a help desk be able to give out employee details over the phone ?

For those who are so paranoid and concerned over their security and personal details. You need to be aware that being able to check ID means that you are aware of what you are looking for. Just because someone shows you ID doesn't mean they are legit. Even if someone flashed me a police warrant card is have no idea of it was real or not. It's a false sense of security.

Just saying you can verify it by ringing the TOC also gives you that same false sense of security.

There needs to be procedures in place that allow ID to be checked. Not many companies have this but those that do will tell you how to check and what to look for.

I would support a system where anyone at a TOC whose role is to take details, money, tickets etc. from a passenger can be checked on a public database.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,576
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
I would support a system where anyone at a TOC whose role is to take details, money, tickets etc. from a passenger can be checked on a public database.

I agreed with everything you said..... until this point ! How could every passenger access such a database and check an employee's status in any kind of reasonable timescale, and what kind of information would the database include; Surely not the employee's full name, as that renders staff open to retribution from disgruntled passengers ? I would agree that reasonable steps should be taken, ie announcements before ticket checks, uniform worn, some form of ID carried, and, most importantly, if a machine is being used to scan credit or debit cards, some form of assurance that the machine does not and cannot take any payment.

But if someone asks to see a physical ticket, unless they are going to snatch it from my hand and run off with it (difficult to escape with it from a moving train however !) there is no risk from showing it, whether the person has satisfactorily identified themselves or not.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,034
Location
No longer here
This is still an enormous storm in a teacup given we’ve only seen one report of an actual fake RPI on the forums and that was ten years ago. And even then that person was collecting cash and rang huge alarm bells!

A uniformed member of staff asking to see or check your ticket should be treated as legitimate unless there are very good reasons to suspect they are not legitimate. The law about showing tickets depends on fact, and if you fail to show your ticket to an authorised person on demand then you’ve committed an offence.

A quick “sorry can I see some ID?” And they produce a TOC ID card is good enough for nearly all reasonable people.

Ringing customer services is going to result in a long wait and even then they’ll not actually be able to verify the *identity of the person in front of you*. After all, they’re not there, with you. What sort of proof do you expect them to provide? That the name on the ID card corresponds to an employee? How do they know that’s actually the employee then?

I can see people getting themselves in plenty of trouble over this sort of boneheadedness. This sounds very much like “making up a guy to get mad at”. And I’m afraid that the story about a member of the public getting a free season ticket after cautioning an RPI (lol) triggers my BS alarm.
 

Cloud Strife

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2014
Messages
1,796
And I’m afraid that the story about a member of the public getting a free season ticket after cautioning an RPI (lol) triggers my BS alarm.

There's more to the story, but it would identify the situation to anyone in the know. The key point is that they (the TOC) had a very good reason to want to bury the story without it escalating further, and a cheap yearly season ticket (less than 2000 pounds) was probably preferable to the bad publicity that would have ensued.

A uniformed member of staff asking to see or check your ticket should be treated as legitimate unless there are very good reasons to suspect they are not legitimate. The law about showing tickets depends on fact, and if you fail to show your ticket to an authorised person on demand then you’ve committed an offence.

Where a bank card is concerned, there is a very good reason not to take anyone at face value without checking their ID first. If they react in any other way than "sure, here you are", then it would set off alarm bells in my head. As soon as an RPI started being funny about showing the ID and allowing it to be examined, I'd tell them clearly that we could resolve the situation at the destination station.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,352
Whilst the only case on this forum of a fake RPI may have been ten years ago, in aware of a number of cases at my previous TOC.

I'm also aware of the many times passengers ended up in my office concerned that there were fake ticket inspectors whilst "ticketless travel surveys" were happening - these surveys used agency staff who didn't have any uniform, only had agency ID (not TOC), and most had a low level of English.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,295
A uniformed member of staff asking to see or check your ticket should be treated as legitimate unless there are very good reasons to suspect they are not legitimate. The law about showing tickets depends on fact, and if you fail to show your ticket to an authorised person on demand then you’ve committed an offence.

A quick “sorry can I see some ID?” And they produce a TOC ID card is good enough for nearly all reasonable people.
It should be - and if there are concerns, then calling to the organisation for verification of the form of ID should be enough - just as the utility companies recommend people do when someone knocks at the door. Or the police do when exercising their powers. But when the facts include refusal on the part of the inspector to demonstrate their ID, then proving that the person was an "authorised person" for the purposes of the legislation might be a bit tricky.

The railways, and their staff, need to acknowledge that their customers are being trained in fraud avoidance, and accept that they may need to prove their bona fides just as much as the travellers whom they're inspecting.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,223
Location
Bristol
It should be - and if there are concerns, then calling to the organisation for verification of the form of ID should be enough - just as the utility companies recommend people do when someone knocks at the door. Or the police do when exercising their powers.
If you are shown ID you have sufficient cause to think is fake that you'd call the company, what can they tell you over a phone call to satisfy your concerns?
If a utility worker turned up at my door and I doubted the ID, I'd politely refuse the visit and ask that their office writes to me to schedule another time.
But when the facts include refusal on the part of the inspector to demonstrate their ID, then proving that the person was an "authorised person" for the purposes of the legislation might be a bit tricky.
The railways, and their staff, need to acknowledge that their customers are being trained in fraud avoidance, and accept that they may need to prove their bona fides just as much as the travellers whom they're inspecting.
Agree
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,295
If you are shown ID you have sufficient cause to think is fake that you'd call the company, what can they tell you over a phone call to satisfy your concerns?
If a utility worker turned up at my door and I doubted the ID, I'd politely refuse the visit and ask that their office writes to me to schedule another time.
If I rang and said "I have been approached by someone claiming to be one of your RPIs, travelling on the 13:20 from Little Snoring to Greater Snoring. He's shown me an ID identifying him as Joe Bloggs, with a reference number of 123456, but I'm not sure of it's authenticity. Please could you advise me whether this is a valid ID", and they were to tell me either "yes, that's legit" or "no, there's no such ID", I'd be able to form a judgement about whether to dig my heels in or follow up.
 

etr221

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2018
Messages
1,037
A few thoughts on this topic:
1) A frequent comment on this forum is 'the man on the station said'... this is essentially a variation on that. If a railwayman cannot identify himself as such - by showing id or otherwise - then he is just some man on the station (or train), and so cannot possibly be an 'authorised person'.
2) Is it an offence to impersonate a railway servant (or claim to be authorised when not)? What other liability might they face?
3) Many people regard the way that contactless (etc) work as some form of magic - they know that if they 'touch' payment is made from their account: nobody should be surprised if people are reluctant - to the point of refusing - to touch if they're not confident.
4) If I thought that an RPI was fake I would regard calling the BTP as reasonable. Should BTP/'the railway' have a 'well known' number for enquiries including queries such as 'RPI X wants to check my ticket - is he genuine?' - and should be able to provide reassurance that 'the railway' thinks he is (yes, he's on duty, checking that train...)
5) Any genuine RPI (or other railwayman) should happy to show his id, let details be taken, and have check made. If not, what's he got to hide? And if he is doubted, ask why and get this raised as a management issue.
6) Policemen have collar/shoulder numbers on their uniforms for a reason. Railwaymen should have the same. With the current fashion of having hi-(or lo-)vis vests/jackets I might expect these to display (front and back) relevant (responsible, may not be employing) company, role and id - with a transparent pocket for id/authority card. (When I had a preserved railway lineside photographic pass, that's what I got)
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,576
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
If I rang

Do TOCs publish phone numbers for members of the public to check on the credentials of individual staff members ?

Any genuine RPI (or other railwayman) should happy to show his id, let details be taken, and have check made. If not, what's he got to hide? And if he is doubted, ask why and get this raised as a management issue.

I agree that any rail staff dealing with the public should have ID displayed, without having to be asked; But as above I'm sceptical as to how a passenger, not accepting this as genuine, would be able to check them. I can only say that in over 50 years of rail travel I have never been unsure of anyone who asked to see my ticket and it has never occurred to me to refuse.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,034
Location
No longer here
The railways, and their staff, need to acknowledge that their customers are being trained in fraud avoidance, and accept that they may need to prove their bona fides just as much as the travellers whom they're inspecting.
A traveller does not need to provide any ID or any “bona fides” at all.

Do TOCs publish phone numbers for members of the public to check on the credentials of individual staff members ?
No. You’d get through to some random customer service person. I used to man these phone lines and probably took 25,000 calls for TOCs. The number of times someone said they didn’t believe a member of rail staff in front of them was real was zero.

All of this phoning up stuff means there’s someone in front of you who:

a) you have a reasonable belief is not a genuine member of staff,
b) refuses (very rare!) to provide ID, or the ID provided somehow doesn’t satisfy you, and
c) has no other way of showing they’re authorised to check your ticket.

Frankly if you come across anyone who wants to check your ticket or take money off you and who doesn’t have ID, you should contact the BTP and forget the rest.

Nonetheless refusing to provide your ticket on request to an authorised person remains a strict liability offence and much of the advice and hypothetical discussion here - including refusal to comply - would be unwise in light of that fact. “Didn’t provide ID” isn’t a defence and you’d be in a pickle otherwise, as we found with the poster who started off this entire hypothetical discussion.
 
Last edited:

etr221

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2018
Messages
1,037
A traveller does not need to provide any ID or any “bona fides” at all.
The railway accepts that anybody can travel, so does not care about ID (unless...), and issues tickets so travellers can demonstrate that they are "bona fide".
Do TOCs publish phone numbers for members of the public to check on the credentials of individual staff members ?
That is why I suggested having a 'well known' number for enquiries - one that can be plastered everywhere - which can, one way or another, answer all queries, including whether a staff member is genuine - or at least sufficiently likely to be so to be vouched for (and if it turns out not to be so, made target of a BTP investigation)
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,295
A traveller does not need to provide any ID or any “bona fides” at all.


No. You’d get through to some random customer service person. I used to man these phone lines and probably took 25,000 calls for TOCs. The number of times someone said they didn’t believe a member of rail staff in front of them was real was zero.

All of this phoning up stuff means there’s someone in front of you who:

a) you have a reasonable belief is not a genuine member of staff,
b) refuses (very rare!) to provide ID, or the ID provided somehow doesn’t satisfy you, and
c) has no other way of showing they’re authorised to check your ticket.

Frankly if you come across anyone who wants to check your ticket or take money off you and who doesn’t have ID, you should contact the BTP and forget the rest.

Nonetheless refusing to provide your ticket on request to an authorised person remains a strict liability offence and much of the advice and hypothetical discussion here - including refusal to comply - would be unwise in light of that fact. “Didn’t provide ID” isn’t a defence and you’d be in a pickle otherwise, as we found with the poster who started off this entire hypothetical discussion.
Fair enough - a 999 call it is with all the implications involved there. For what it's worth, this is unlikely but the hypothesis involves a layer of risk that has not historically been part of passengers' risk when travelling - that a fraudster may gain access to their card details to be able to steal remotely. Protocols and behaviours need to reflect this - which does include revenue staff being willing and able to demonstrate that they are who they claim to be. And that does takes us back to the original scenario, and how it is reasonable to respond (where, for the avoidance of doubt, I believe that the OP's response was objectively unreasonable even allowing for their (IMHO, skewed) view of risk).
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,223
Location
Bristol
If I rang and said "I have been approached by someone claiming to be one of your RPIs, travelling on the 13:20 from Little Snoring to Greater Snoring. He's shown me an ID identifying him as Joe Bloggs, with a reference number of 123456, but I'm not sure of it's authenticity. Please could you advise me whether this is a valid ID", and they were to tell me either "yes, that's legit" or "no, there's no such ID", I'd be able to form a judgement about whether to dig my heels in or follow up.
They wouldn't confirm any of that information over the phone to a random punter, even if they had access to it (which they almost certianly don't) and GDPR lets them (which it doesn't).

The most you might be able to do is DM the TOC on twitter asking 'Is there an RPI on the 13:20 from X to Y?' and they would probably reply that they don't have access to RPI's rosters.
 

etr221

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2018
Messages
1,037
Nonetheless refusing to provide your ticket on request to an authorised person remains a strict liability offence and much of the advice and hypothetical discussion here - including refusal to comply - would be unwise in light of that fact. “Didn’t provide ID” isn’t a defence and you’d be in a pickle otherwise, as we found with the poster who started off this entire hypothetical discussion.
The defence is actually that they weren't an "authorised person" - which is a reasonable assumption in the absence of evidence, such as provided ID, to the contrary.
 

etr221

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2018
Messages
1,037
That has to be a matter of fact, not suspicion.
A fact easily demonstrated by the production of authorising ID...

If not produced, they are just 'some person on the train' and unlikely to be authorised.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,034
Location
No longer here
A fact easily demonstrated by the production of authorising ID...

If not produced, they are just 'some person on the train' and unlikely to be authorised.
But this discussion is about whether you accept their ID and “how to verify it”.
 

Undiscovered

Member
Joined
28 Jan 2013
Messages
409
Surely, if the train was guarded, you'd ask the guard.
If you suspected the 'guard' was in on the act, or you're in DOO land, then the Driver would be able to verify? Either by asking at the next stop, if possible, or if you feel so threatened, Passcom.

Ringing up numbers seems a lot of faff to me.
 

NorthWestRover

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2018
Messages
1,459
This is a bonkers thread. Do people really live their lives suspecting everyone else's motives?
 

Huntergreed

Established Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
16 Jan 2016
Messages
3,019
Location
Dumfries
Do you phone up Tesco HQ and enquire at the checkout if the cashier is genuine in case they haven’t tampered with the card machine?

Do you phone up the management of the restaurant you’re dining at after receiving the chef’s name to ensure the cook holds the appropriate qualifications?

This thread just seems daft and is making a rather tall mountain over a tiny molehill.

The number of people who impersonate rail staff will be (very near, if not) zero and the issue certainly doesn’t justify a dedicated phone line.

At most, a reminder to RPI’s that they must present ID when requested. A lot of RPI’s work in teams, and if not, ask the guard or the driver.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top