T&C's Northern Vs LNER

Northernivor · 15 Aug 2022

Some of you may be seen, or even commented on my previous thread about Northern Vs LNER.

I'm in the really fortunate position of being able to choose between them for a trainee driver role.

There was a suggestion on the other thread that I start a new one asking about the T&C's of each so that's what I'm doing.

If anyone with experience would like to comment about the highs and lows of each, it would be very much appreciated.

RailUK Forums

Corin_VL · 15 Aug 2022

Im an apprentice driver for LNER, i can only comment on my experience with LNER but the differences I can see so far are:

- LNER pay better
- No DOO unless running ECS
- Not as many stops as Northern, as you’re running express services and not sprinter.
- less amount of traction types to learn (only two main traction types, Class 80X and Class 91, unless you also sign Rescue Loco Class 67)
- onboard staff sometimes bring you food and drink.

Im sure theres tonnes more that someone else can think of, but thats what ive experienced so far

Bletchleyite · 15 Aug 2022

There is no DOO (P) on Northern either. Not that there won't be in future, but you can't guarantee there won't be on LNER either - the stock is fitted.

lammergeier · 15 Aug 2022

I'm honestly amazed you're still considering this. Go for LNER every time. When you're earning about 20k per annum for better work in better cabs you'll be pleased.

As I said on your other thread - there is a steady stream of drivers to companies such as XC, LNER, AWC etc. and yet I don't know of anyone who has gone the other way "for better terms and conditions." It just doesn't happen.

The big one people always go on about is movement off spare, and yes at Northern the movement is fairly limited, but what nobody tells you is that the roster is also posted twice, so 4 days out then 24hours out and you can still be moved on the second posting (albeit less than on the 4 day posting). Not sure what it's like at LNER for that but at XC (who everyone always says has rubbish T's & C's) once the 4 day roster is out it's set in stone apart from mutual agreement. The double posting of the roster at Northern isn't really a big deal by the way, I'm just using it as an example of how things aren't exactly as clear cut as they might appear.

LowLevel · 15 Aug 2022

Unless you particularly fancy variety of routes and traction which you may get at Northern (after some time climbing links depending on the depot!) it's probably going to be LNER, I'd have thought.

Personally speaking (as a guard rather than a driver, but the rationale is similar) I went for regional work rather than Intercity because I work a huge range of routes with a few different types of traction and I like the variety.

If you don't mind sticking with fairly samey work LNER will be grand (and of course there will be different stopping patterns, diversions etc).

Northernivor · 15 Aug 2022

I see your point and I appreciate your input. It's just in my nature to want as much information as possible before making a decision.

The truth is, if I only had an offer from one of them, I'd take it and be happy with it.

NorthernTech · 15 Aug 2022

Northernivor said:
I see your point and I appreciate your input. It's just in my nature to want as much information as possible before making a decision.

The truth is, if I only had an offer from one of them, I'd take it and be happy with it.

Lucky lucky… Worst case scenario, you choose one, it’s still excellent but you apply to move at a later time if you really feel you need to. Great position to be in, good luck with your decision. I’d go with Lner if it were me though.

lammergeier · 15 Aug 2022

Northernivor said:
I see your point and I appreciate your input. It's just in my nature to want as much information as possible before making a decision.

The truth is, if I only had an offer from one of them, I'd take it and be happy with it.

I understand you want as much information as possible and that's sensible. And it's also right to take the job at Northern if that's the only offer! Being a driver at Northern is great, I'm not disparaging it at all. But you have two offers and have asked for input. My answer is LNER every single time.

Dieseldriver · 15 Aug 2022

One point I’ll make, I’m unsure what Northern are like for recruiting Qualified Drivers but if they do semi regularly, I’d imagine it would be easier to get a Qualified Drivers job with them than it would be with LNER if you decided you wanted to make a change once you’ve been Qualified for a few years (or potentially Transpennine Express depending on your location). My gut instinct says give LNER a go. Good luck with whatever you decide.

SteveL9 · 15 Aug 2022

On the point on T&Cs, I am sure there is something about Sunday being part of the working week with LNER (i.e. no enhancement for working it, already baked in to the salary). I do not work for either, just going off things I am sure I have read previously from others.

Class2ldn · 15 Aug 2022

I'm pretty sure the t and c's vary a fair bit on Northern depending on whether you are west or east, east i believe having the worse of the two.

Andy Pacer · 15 Aug 2022

Which LNER depot would it be if I may ask?

lammergeier · 15 Aug 2022

SteveL9 said:
On the point on T&Cs, I am sure there is something about Sunday being part of the working week with LNER (i.e. no enhancement for working it, already baked in to the salary). I do not work for either, just going off things I am sure I have read previously from others.

I understand the OP had the option of an Eastern depot at Northern, who also have Sunday inside the working week.

Corin_VL · 15 Aug 2022

SteveL9 said:
On the point on T&Cs, I am sure there is something about Sunday being part of the working week with LNER (i.e. no enhancement for working it, already baked in to the salary). I do not work for either, just going off things I am sure I have read previously from others.

Yeah I believe the Sunday was sold off for a higher wage. Along with only opening doors.

SteveL9 · 15 Aug 2022

Corin_VL said:
Yeah I believe the Sunday was sold off for a higher wage. Along with only opening doors.

Interesting, cheers.

Northernivor · 15 Aug 2022

Thanks for all the comments so far, much appreciated. Depots under consideration are Sheffield and Doncaster.

Efini92 · 16 Aug 2022

Northernivor said:
Thanks for all the comments so far, much appreciated. Depots under consideration are Sheffield and Doncaster.

Sheffield have their breaks on the platform at Leeds, that tells you all you need to know about that.
Ex ATN T&C’s aren’t great, they sold everything years ago for a few quid.
Get the contract signed with LNER.

43066 · 16 Aug 2022

Efini92 said:
Sheffield have their breaks on the platform at Leeds, that tells you all you need to know about that.

Seriously?! That’s shocking. At the very least you need access to somewhere away from public.

I’ve never worked for either but I’d certainly echo the advice above to go with LNER. Less variety but better work, better traction, stopping a lot less.

Efini92 · 16 Aug 2022

43066 said:
Seriously?! That’s shocking. At the very least you need access to somewhere away from public.

I’ve never worked for either but I’d certainly echo the advice above to go with LNER. Less variety but better work, better traction, stopping a lot less.

Sorry that’s a bit misleading, they have access to Leeds messroom but they don’t go in there.

Andy Pacer · 16 Aug 2022

Efini92 said:
Sorry that’s a bit misleading, they have access to Leeds messroom but they don’t go in there.

How so? Do the crews not get along?

Efini92 · 16 Aug 2022

Andy Pacer said:
How so? Do the crews not get along?

From what I understand, No.

godfreycomplex · 16 Aug 2022

Andy Pacer said:
How so? Do the crews not get along?

I should point out I’m not based anywhere nearby but Leeds messroom for Northern has probably the worst reputation for atmosphere of any messroom in the country. Not just Sheffield either, Manchester and Carlisle crews at the very least are also known to have their breaks on the platform/in a nearby cafe or something just to avoid it

Efini92 · 16 Aug 2022

godfreycomplex said:
I should point out I’m not based anywhere nearby but Leeds messroom for Northern has probably the worst reputation for atmosphere of any messroom in the country. Not just Sheffield either, Manchester and Carlisle crews at the very least are also known to have their breaks on the platform/in a nearby cafe or something just to avoid it

Personally I didn’t think there was an atmosphere in there. You had the usual top table rubbish but that was the same everywhere.
The only thing I found annoying was when Mr Scoffings would appear and start rambling on about something.

Northernivor · 16 Aug 2022

Haha, those last few message have me wondering what I'm letting myself in for!

43066 · 16 Aug 2022

“

godfreycomplex said:
I should point out I’m not based anywhere nearby but Leeds messroom for Northern has probably the worst reputation for atmosphere of any messroom in the country. Not just Sheffield either, Manchester and Carlisle crews at the very least are also known to have their breaks on the platform/in a nearby cafe or something just to avoid it

To be fair Sheffield also seems a bit “strange”. The only time I’ve been in, the platform bloke was funny about giving me the code even though he’d just watched me drive a train into the station and climb out of the cab. Then once I was inside - blimey - you need to wipe your feet on the way out.

I haven’t been back. These days I stay on the train or sit with the passengers

. We don’t usually get long up there anyway so it’s no big deal.

Efini92 said:
Personally I didn’t think there was an atmosphere in there. You had the usual top table rubbish but that was the same everywhere.

Is where you are now better or worse in that respect (I’d assume better)?

Northernivor said:
Haha, those last few message have me wondering what I'm letting myself in for!

It’s only certain locations that can be funny.

16.19 · 16 Aug 2022

godfreycomplex said:
I should point out I’m not based anywhere nearby but Leeds messroom for Northern has probably the worst reputation for atmosphere of any messroom in the country. Not just Sheffield either, Manchester and Carlisle crews at the very least are also known to have their breaks on the platform/in a nearby cafe or something just to avoid it

This was true historically way back when, but is far from the case nowadays.

The messroom has been completely overhauled (there is no ‘top table’) and attitudes have changed with the times.

Everyone is welcome

godfreycomplex · 16 Aug 2022

43066 said:
“

To be fair Sheffield also seems a bit “strange”. The only time I’ve been in, the platform bloke was funny about giving me the code even though he’d just watched me drive a train into the station and climb out of the cab. Then once I was inside - blimey - you need to wipe your feet on the way out.

I haven’t been back. These days I stay on the train or sit with the passengers . We don’t usually get long up there anyway so it’s no big deal.

Is where you are now better or worse in that respect (I’d assume better)?

It’s only certain locations that can be funny.

Yow!! I have heard quite horrific tales of Sheffield (the bogies on the toilet wall is another one) but that does take the biscuit

It’s worth saying as well to the OP that for LNER and most other intercity TOCs the vast majority of PNB points are in cities or large towns so there’s usually plenty of other places to sit down/stretch your legs if the messroom doesn’t take your fancy on that particular day

16.19 said:
This was true historically way back when, but is far from the case nowadays.

The messroom has been completely overhauled (there is no ‘top table’) and attitudes have changed with the times.

Everyone is welcome

Glad to hear it

LowLevel · 16 Aug 2022

To be fair Sheffield Northern have their own mess room under the powerbox for themselves and invited guests only :lol:

Platform 5 is only used and abused by contract staff and visiting traincrew. No one based at Sheffield generally uses it unless it's to pop in and make a brew, TPE have their own facilities over the road.

60074 · 16 Aug 2022

LNER every time. Absolute no brainer. Higher salary, better trains, green signals all the way

craigybagel · 16 Aug 2022

Efini92 said:
Personally I didn’t think there was an atmosphere in there. You had the usual top table rubbish but that was the same everywhere.

You say this like it's a common thing, but I've only ever heard the "top table" situation referred to at two mess rooms. One being Waterloo and the other Leeds. I'm not aware of any at either of the TOCs I've worked at, or heard much mention of them online, other than the two I've mentioned above.

LowLevel said:
Unless you particularly fancy variety of routes and traction which you may get at Northern (after some time climbing links depending on the depot!) it's probably going to be LNER, I'd have thought.

Personally speaking (as a guard rather than a driver, but the rationale is similar) I went for regional work rather than Intercity because I work a huge range of routes with a few different types of traction and I like the variety.

If you don't mind sticking with fairly samey work LNER will be grand (and of course there will be different stopping patterns, diversions etc).

One issue I did find when I went from guard to driver is that there's a lot less variety in the job in general. As a guard I could do the same job several days on the bounce and it was ok, I knew I'd be bumping into different people and situations. As a driver, it can become a lot more repetitive as you don't have the people factor to contend with.

Net result - when I passed out, I only signed my depots one core route. This was the week before the first Covid lockdown, so it was 15 months before I got to add to that route card. Even though we had several different jobs over that route, involving different traction, calling points and short turns, it still got pretty tedious.

I know of people who've moved from regional to Intercity TOCs who've struggled with the monotony of London and back on green signals every day.

T&C's Northern Vs LNER

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