All heavy rail stations served by TfL are staffed whenever trains are running. Why don't other train companies do the same as well?

miklcct · 16 Aug 2022

TfL offers a very good customer service by staffing all its heavy rail (i.e. Tube, Overground, Elizabeth line) stations whenever trains are running. Why don't all other train operating companies do the same as well, to staff all their stations whenever trains are running?

I encountered a disruption last week on the TfL network and the station staff provided us up-to-date information every few minutes through the announcement system until the train started running again. In this forum I can't remember that I see disputes resulting from people being stranded (as a result of delays and missing last train connections) at places without getting help from the operator on the TfL network, only elsewhere not operated by TfL.

We ought to level up the services provided in the whole country to London standard in order to make public transport usage up to the London standard as well.

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Bald Rick · 16 Aug 2022

Because it is very, very expensive. Hence London Overground is one of the most heavily subsidised operations in the country.

don’t forget that a significant number of stations in this country are completely unstaffed, and more than a few have passenger numbers rather fewer than 1% of a typical London Overground station.

Marton · 16 Aug 2022

I can’t believe I am reading this.
My local station has only a handful of customers a day. Before the pandemic about 70 a day. Other local stations have had a maximum of under 3,000 a day in recent years.

How can that justify providing a suitable building, managing rest periods and covering staff pay.

This idea is a recipe for killing lines Beeching style.

Brissle Girl · 16 Aug 2022

miklcct said:
TfL offers a very good customer service by staffing all its heavy rail (i.e. Tube, Overground, Elizabeth line) stations whenever trains are running. Why don't all other train operating companies do the same as well, to staff all their stations whenever trains are running?

I encountered a disruption last week on the TfL network and the station staff provided us up-to-date information every few minutes through the announcement system until the train started running again. In this forum I can't remember that I see disputes resulting from people being stranded (as a result of delays and missing last train connections) at places without getting help from the operator on the TfL network, only elsewhere not operated by TfL.

We ought to level up the services provided in the whole country to London standard in order to make public transport usage up to the London standard as well.

Because it's hugely expensive. TfL stations generally have relatively high footfalls, even smaller ones which makes it easier to justify the expense.

It would be absurdly expensive to staff all stations all the time, and would not be a good use of taxpayer funds (assuming you're not suggesting that farepayers foot the bill). If you wanted to spend that sort of money in improving the service offered to passengers, there are many better ways of using it.

zwk500 · 16 Aug 2022

miklcct said:
We ought to level up the services provided in the whole country to London standard in order to make public transport usage up to the London standard as well.

Unfortunately, this is simply not realistic at a time of financial stringency.

I rather pity the poor souls who get rostered at Berney Arms, Dovey Junction or Rannoch.

Watershed · 16 Aug 2022

Bald Rick said:
Because it is very, very expensive. Hence London Overground is one of the most heavily subsidised operations in the country.

don’t forget that a significant number of stations in this country are completely unstaffed, and more than a few have passenger numbers rather fewer than 1% of a typical London Overground station.

...and no doubt LU would generate a larger surplus if the stations had fewer staff. But even an attempt to impose a recruitment freeze has faced heavy opposition. There are plenty of stations in the outer zones which wouldn't have any staff at all on an equivalent National Rail line.

I do find it remarkable how certain stations (Euston Square comes to mind) are staffed, and yet you really wouldn't know it from looking.

bramling · 16 Aug 2022

miklcct said:
TfL offers a very good customer service by staffing all its heavy rail (i.e. Tube, Overground, Elizabeth line) stations whenever trains are running. Why don't all other train operating companies do the same as well, to staff all their stations whenever trains are running?

I encountered a disruption last week on the TfL network and the station staff provided us up-to-date information every few minutes through the announcement system until the train started running again. In this forum I can't remember that I see disputes resulting from people being stranded (as a result of delays and missing last train connections) at places without getting help from the operator on the TfL network, only elsewhere not operated by TfL.

We ought to level up the services provided in the whole country to London standard in order to make public transport usage up to the London standard as well.

££££££££££££££££££££££

is the simple answer.

That said, TFL’s staff aren’t always that great. They are very good at repeating scripted stuff, like reeling off service status, but not so good when there’s a proper issue and they need to be able to interpret what’s going on.

Bald Rick · 16 Aug 2022

miklcct said:
I encountered a disruption last week on the TfL network and the station staff provided us up-to-date information every few minutes through the announcement system until the train started running again.

And of course you don’t need staff at the station to provide up to date information every few minutes through the announcement system.

357 · 16 Aug 2022

I've had the attitude for a long time that a route should either have a guard on the train or every station staffed.

This solves ticketing issues amongst other things including MIP/VIP users.

Imagine how much of an idiot I look when a passenger alarm is activated because a wheelchair user hasn't had anyone meet them with a ramp, and with no guard on the train I have to go around the station trying to find someone only to find nobody there. I've had it happen.

Having worked somewhere that used to be a TOC and then was taken over by TfL, the staff TfL brought in are largely agency workers who know how to use an iPad but have no idea about anything that they can't find the answer to on said iPad.

They were hopeless during disruption and incidents. As most of us here will know, RTT and station screens show many trains as on time until they are cancelled in the system. After a fatality at my station with all lines blocked, one STM agency worker brought passengers to the platform because the CIS screens showed a train as on time.

However it's better than having nobody on a station at all.

JonathanH · 16 Aug 2022

While it isn't feasible at all stations, staffing all stations which already have gatelines from first to last train (and potentially improving those gatelines to prevent tailgating or forcing them open) would almost certainly pay for itself via a reduction in fare evasion and vandalism.

I find it hard to believe there isn't £20-£30 each hour walking out the door unpaid at stations where a gateline is unstaffed.

skyhigh · 17 Aug 2022

miklcct said:
Why don't all other train operating companies do the same as well, to staff all their stations whenever trains are running?

Have a look at train frequencies on the Bentham line, or the S&C. Those are just 2 examples.

Would you place staff at Blea Moor, or North Walsham, or Berney Arms, or Sugar Loaf?

You just don't understand the UK rail network - you have been told time and time again that lots of the UK outside of London is nothing like London. I am reminded of the thread literally on Monday where you stated trains should be immediately terminated if the air con fails, and didn't believe posters when told there were stations with a 4 hour gap in services!

miklcct said:
Are you exaggerating? No other trains in 4 hours and no proper shelter at a train station?

Most of the stations I have visited / used have at least 2 trains per hour per direction, with a significant portion of the stations having 4 trains per hour or more.

miklcct said:
I have never heard of those lines. I have travelled on many lines in the UK rail network, like South West Main Line, Wessex Main Line, Portsmouth Direct, East Coast Main Line, West Coast Main Line, HS1, Great Western Main Line, Reading-Basingstoke, Reading-Waterloo, Brighton Main Line, North London Line, West London Line, and so on. Even in the most rural bit of the network there are trains every hour, except Beaulieu Road. The only line which I know and don't have an hourly service is Heart of Wessex, connecting Weymouth and Yeovil, and I have never travelled on that line.

AlterEgo said:
That’s what, 10% if the network, solely concentrated in the wealthier south. You really need to get out more before telling posters here they’re wrong or dismissing what they tell you.

Most of us here have a LOT of experience with the network. I’m 36 and was born here and I’ve been hardcore bashing trains for about 20 years. I’ve completed 95% or thereabouts of the network and I’ve worked in a railway control centre. A very significant part of the country has a sparse rail service. Very few stations are air conditioned. And very few stations of our 2500 plus shacks can accommodate a full train’s worth of people in shelter during a heatwave.

If you know so little about the British railway network it might be wise to listen more than you speak, with all due respect.

A0wen · 17 Aug 2022

JonathanH said:
While it isn't feasible at all stations, staffing all stations which already have gatelines from first to last train (and potentially improving those gatelines to prevent tailgating or forcing them open) would almost certainly pay for itself via a reduction in fare evasion and vandalism.

I find it hard to believe there isn't £20-£30 each hour walking out the door unpaid at stations where a gateline is unstaffed.

Bit in bold - but it presumes that people are both boarding and leaving at an unstaffed station which actually reduces the number of possible journeys quite alot. And then they're running the gauntlet of an RPI boarding their train and catching them.

In London most people will just tap in / tap out using Oyster or Contactless and those are on relatively short journeys.

dosxuk · 17 Aug 2022

miklcct said:
Why don't all other train operating companies do the same as well, to staff all their stations whenever trains are running?

How about you spend a day doing this at Berney Arms? First you need to make your own way there before the first service arrives, spend the day talking to as many passengers as possible, then make your way back from the station after the last service departs. It's not too long a day, with the first service around 8am and the last around 6pm, so would easily be a single shift if it was staffed.

Afterwards, you may understand why the railway is unwilling to pay for someone to do this.

wilbers · 17 Aug 2022

The closest that could ever conceivably happen is for there to be a help point at every station (even 1 person at the other end of it could cover a lot of stations), and given the near ubiquitous distribution of mobile phones even that is probably unnecessary as a board with a phone number to call for assistance along with maybe a QR code to link to a page to get train times from/to that particular station would suffice for many (apart from the very very few stations without a good mobile signal).

I wonder what % of stations don't have a help point - I've never used one, and haven't taken any notice of them.

Bletchleyite · 17 Aug 2022

Merseyrail does too. However it is a poorer service than would be provided by a couple of TVMs, contactless and e-ticket acceptance, to be honest, and it is expensive on subsidy despite that lack of benefit.

The answer to the "Asian comparison" is that staff cost peanuts over there.

miklcct · 17 Aug 2022

wilbers said:
(apart from the very very few stations without a good mobile signal).

There are a lot of stations outside urban areas without good mobile signal. For example, I can't receive signals along most of the South West Main Line.

Ashley Hill · 17 Aug 2022

skyhigh said:
Would you place staff at Blea Moor, or North Walsham, or Berney Arms, or Sugar Loaf?

I wouldn’t mind middle turn at Berney Arms.
Has the level of staffing on the Elizabeth Line stations from Reading increased since TfL took them over?

JonathanH · 17 Aug 2022

Ashley Hill said:
Has the level of staffing on the Elizabeth Line stations from Reading increased since TfL took them over?

Yes, very much so with ticket gates installed and staff on platforms that were previously unstaffed.

The exile · 17 Aug 2022

wilbers said:
The closest that could ever conceivably happen is for there to be a help point at every station (even 1 person at the other end of it could cover a lot of stations), and given the near ubiquitous distribution of mobile phones even that is probably unnecessary as a board with a phone number to call for assistance along with maybe a QR code to link to a page to get train times from/to that particular station would suffice for many (apart from the very very few stations without a good mobile signal).

I wonder what % of stations don't have a help point - I've never used one, and haven't taken any notice of them.

It also requires the person on the other end to have 1) local knowledge (how to find the rail replacement bus stop when there are no notices and the station has multiple entrances; 2) service and practical knowledge (alternatives when train cancelled) 3) authority to provide solutions (even things like ticket endorsements for other routes could be done with a code which others could check) - not just a (questionable) ability to repeat a script parrot-fashion

skyhigh · 17 Aug 2022

The exile said:
It also requires the person on the other end to have 1) local knowledge (how to find the rail replacement bus stop when there are no notices and the station has multiple entrances; 2) service and practical knowledge (alternatives when train cancelled) 3) authority to provide solutions (even things like ticket endorsements for other routes could be done with a code which others could check) - not just a (questionable) ability to repeat a script parrot-fashion

At my company the help points are all directly answered by Control staff who:
1) have a detailed list and maps of locations of RRB pick up points
2) have full knowledge of the service
3) are able to provide authority and contact/be contacted by train crew and revenue inspectors to verify that authority

Having similar elsewhere would be positive in my experience

Birmingham · 17 Aug 2022

skyhigh said:
At my company the help points are all directly answered by Control staff who:
1) have a detailed list and maps of locations of RRB pick up points
2) have full knowledge of the service
3) are able to provide authority and contact/be contacted by train crew and revenue inspectors to verify that authority

Having similar elsewhere would be positive in my experience

I believe there are help points at every station on the network(?), but it would be useful to know which TOCs' ring through to a control team and which to an ineffectual overseas call centre that can barely tell you the time of the next train.

zwk500 · 17 Aug 2022

Birmingham said:
I believe there are help points at every station on the network(?), but it would be useful to know which TOCs' ring through to a control team and which to an ineffectual overseas call centre that can barely tell you the time of the next train.

I don't think there are yet, but it is an intention/policy to install them.

The exile · 17 Aug 2022

skyhigh said:
At my company the help points are all directly answered by Control staff who:
1) have a detailed list and maps of locations of RRB pick up points
2) have full knowledge of the service
3) are able to provide authority and contact/be contacted by train crew and revenue inspectors to verify that authority

Having similar elsewhere would be positive in my experience

I've obviously never had the fortune to use one of your company's help points as each time I've ever used one for more than "next train" it has been patently obvious that none of those 3 applied.

Falcon1200 · 17 Aug 2022

My local line out of Glasgow Central has (apart from Central itself) 3 stations with early and late ticket office staffing, 6 with early shift only, and one with no staffing at all. So to staff this line fully would require (minimum) 8 extra shifts per day to cover the missing hours, which with Rest Day and holiday cover means more than 8 additional posts; Where does the OP suggest the money to pay for them would come from ? And the unstaffed station does not even have any buildings, so something suitable would have to be constructed. All this just for one suburban line ! Totally unjustifiable.

miklcct · 17 Aug 2022

Falcon1200 said:
My local line out of Glasgow Central has (apart from Central itself) 3 stations with early and late ticket office staffing, 6 with early shift only, and one with no staffing at all. So to staff this line fully would require (minimum) 8 extra shifts per day to cover the missing hours, which with Rest Day and holiday cover means more than 8 additional posts; Where does the OP suggest the money to pay for them would come from ? And the unstaffed station does not even have any buildings, so something suitable would have to be constructed. All this just for one suburban line ! Totally unjustifiable.

So where did the money come from for TfL to staff all their Elizabeth line stations?

SynthD · 17 Aug 2022

JonathanH said:
potentially improving those gatelines to prevent tailgating or forcing them open

Please share your designs for gate lines that prevent forced entry by free riders but not by emergency victims, in a new thread.

On topic, could these help points due to be installed include a loudspeaker for control to update a wider group of people? It could connect to the existing PA system.

357 · 17 Aug 2022

skyhigh said:
At my company the help points are all directly answered by Control staff who:
1) have a detailed list and maps of locations of RRB pick up points
2) have full knowledge of the service
3) are able to provide authority and contact/be contacted by train crew and revenue inspectors to verify that authority

Having similar elsewhere would be positive in my experience

Elsewhere the information button goes to India and the emergency button goes to control

Falcon1200 · 18 Aug 2022

miklcct said:
So where did the money come from for TfL to staff all their Elizabeth line stations?

From the bottomless pit of money TfL thinks, or rather thought, it has ?

Scotrail, and most if not all other TOCs, are a rather different operation from TfL, what is considered necessary and justifiable in London or Hong Kong is not automatically applicable everywhere else.

SynthD · 18 Aug 2022

miklcct said:
So where did the money come from for TfL to staff all their Elizabeth line stations?

Crossrail might be different, as it has enabling Parliament acts.

HSTEd · 18 Aug 2022

It must be remembered that underground railway stations are required by law to have two staff members on duty at all times.

All heavy rail stations served by TfL are staffed whenever trains are running. Why don't other train companies do the same as well?

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