Euston barriers and excesses (again!)

yorkie · 22 Feb 2011

A friend was returning from Belgium and presented a London Intl(CIV) to Birmingham Stations Route High Wycombe single, with a Railcard, priced at around £9, at the barrier at Euston asking to pay the excess to the Any Permitted single at £14.65, expecting to pay around £5.

However the lady at the barrier (I will reveal her name begins with a C) claimed that tickets from London Intl(CIV) cannot be purchased from her and that he should have bought the excess in Brussels. He had tried, but they said it had to be done over here.

She then tried to insist on selling a much more expensive ticket from London Terminals, and if he didn't accept that he should go to Marylebone, etc etc... but eventually relented and let him speak to the Train Manager, but gave the TM a load of instructions such as ensuring that the customer has means of payment etc. The way she spoke to him was as if he was a criminal, and was the sort of person who makes you feel like driving next time. In all his trips abroad he never once met someone like her.

Anyway the Train Manager was a much nicer person (as is usually the case; the nasty barrier people just don't cut the mustard to become TMs) and the passenger was able to do their journey without being further harassed my Mrs 'C' who did not board the train and presumably went to harass people boarding a later service from Euston. Poor people...!

Euston are getting quite a reputation! Anyone going through there? Feel free to PM me for advice before you pay the lovely barrier staff a visit....

RailUK Forums

RJ · 23 Feb 2011

As far as I know the TMs and revenue protection staff only sell Anytime tickets if there was a previous opportunity to get a ticket - was the person in question genuinely not redirected to the ticket office?

yorkie · 23 Feb 2011

If there is opportunity to pay, the excess is still the difference between the fares, with Railcard discount, for change of route excess. That applies on board, or at the ticket office, or anywhere. The excess is the same irrespective of opportunity to pay. A change of route is an excess, not a new ticket. I think she didn't know how to look for London International as an origin, the customer did tell her but she refused to listen and gave a list of excuses why it couldn't be done. If he had gone back to the ticket office he would have been delayed as it's a long way back.

There was no opportunity to pay at the origin station in Brussels and in any case the excess is the same whether there was or was not opportunity.

wintonian · 23 Feb 2011

Normally when I go up north I travel through Euston, and when I go on a trip of any length I normally have bags with me which mean I have the NCoC and quite possibly these days the Excess fares rules, I have never had a penalty fare/ UPN or threat of prosecution so all I can say is let me at them!

- I might even enjoy the experience (I doubt it) assuming I'm not in a hurry and just pay up

yorkie · 23 Feb 2011

wintonian said:
I might even enjoy the experience (I doubt it) assuming I'm not in a hurry and just pay up

Probably the best thing to do is get a UPFN (though they probably won't let you, although they should) or pay up there and then, and dispute later through proper channels taking it if necessary to Passenger Focus etc and ensure they get a telling off.

A good example would be doing Winchester to somewhere like Rugby or Carlisle, the excess to go via London (on a SVR) is £0.00, but some barrier staff have been known to refuse such excesses and make you pay again. This is a complete disregard of the conditions of carriage and should be taken very seriously. Perhaps the media could be tipped off, maybe Which? or Watchdog could do an undercover investigation. This is blatant overcharging.

However if someone within the industry can do an internal investigation there will be no need for this

premier01 · 23 Feb 2011

wintonian said:
Normally when I go up north I travel through Euston, and when I go on a trip of any length I normally have bags with me which mean I have the NCoC and quite possibly these days the Excess fares rules, I have never had a penalty fare/ UPN or threat of prosecution so all I can say is let me at them! - I might even enjoy the experience (I doubt it) assuming I'm not in a hurry and just pay up

I agree it is always a good plan to carry documentation that can be used as evidence when getting ripped off by incompetent staff who don't know or want to know the correct processes.

I guess those who travel for leisure only with simple travel plans that are unlikely to change probably would not need excess rules but for me the information I have kindly issued from helpful posters on this forum and some well trained VT staff at Manchester Piccadilly have really helped me out over the months of frequent travelling on various train services across the UK.

yorkie · 23 Feb 2011

I agree with premier01 that wintonian's strategy is good, but I would advise asking them to look it up first. You can then use your documentation to check they are doing so correctly, or if they refuse to look it up, then inform them.

There are various reasons why I wouldn't go telling them without asking them to look it up first.

wintonian · 23 Feb 2011

Yes defiantly ask them to look it up first but in my experience whenever I have asked anyone to look it up in "the Manual" they just carry on looking at me as if they didn't hear me, if I am lucky with persistent asking they may say something along the lines of "I don't need to it's all here" referring to the fares software, which is exactly the response I got last time I asked for an excess at Waterloo after the 4/ 5th time of asking them to confirm it by looking at "the Manual"

So personally I don't hold out much hope in asking - but always try first.

Yorkie - personally I don't believe in running to the media, the amount of newspaper story’s we have had on here (i.e. the guide bridge thread) should give a clear indication of why I think these things are better sorted out when between TOC and customer in private.

yorkie · 23 Feb 2011

wintonian said:
Yorkie - personally I don't believe in running to the media, the amount of newspaper storys we have had on here (i.e. the guide bridge thread) should give a clear indication of why I think these things are better sorted out when between TOC and customer in private.

I agree.

But if the TOC continues to disregard the rules when passengers attempt to discuss it in private, then if someone can be found who is willing to go to the media (and I appreciate most people won't), then the publicity would be welcome, in a case like this, it's pretty clear-cut and pretty shocking, so just the right sort of thing for Watchdog. In fact the last thing Watchdog did with Virgin, the passengers were in the wrong!

It is probably true to say that most things that end up in the media regarding ticketing do so because the charge is considered excessive, but the passengers generally (although not always!) are in the wrong, and I don't really approve of those type of stories.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am concerned that Virgin never learn. See this , and then this, and yet despite management being aware they have still not done anything to prevent re-occurrences and rudeness among staff at Euston, with 2 incidents being reported to me recently within 2 weeks of each other. This is inexcusable.

If Virgin can deal with these problems and I get re-assurances that they will not be repeated, then there is no need to take the matter further. But if they continue, then whatever needs to be done to stop it, must be done. But, one step at a time, and someone is looking into it, and I am not suggesting rushing into anything but merely stating that we have options if Virgin don't take control of the situation promptly.

barrykas · 23 Feb 2011

yorkie said:
A friend was returning from Belgium and presented a London Intl(CIV) to Birmingham Stations Route High Wycombe single, with a Railcard, priced at around £9, at the barrier at Euston asking to pay the excess to the Any Permitted single at £14.65, expecting to pay around £5.

However the lady at the barrier (I will reveal her name begins with a C) claimed that tickets from London Intl(CIV) cannot be purchased from her and that he should have bought the excess in Brussels. He had tried, but they said it had to be done over here.

She's correct in her assertion that she can't sell the excess, as tickets FROM London International can't be sold on most UK Ticket Issuing Systems.

Had said friend been in possession of the return portion of a Return ticket, it'd be possible to excess that, though I suspect it would have to be to a significantly more expensive "Any Permitted" ticket.

Having said that, the fares aren't showing the Fares Finder, so I'd have to check when I get to work.

Cheers,

Barry

reb0118 · 23 Feb 2011

barrykas said:
She's correct in her assertion that she can't sell the excess, as tickets FROM London International can't be sold on most UK Ticket Issuing Systems.

Had said friend been in possession of the return portion of a Return ticket, it'd be possible to excess that, though I suspect it would have to be to a significantly more expensive "Any Permitted" ticket.

Having said that, the fares aren't showing the Fares Finder, so I'd have to check when I get to work.

Cheers,

Barry

I'm sure you can issue from London International with Avantix Mobile. Use CRF code "LNE". I'll check at work today and report back.

RJ · 23 Feb 2011

barrykas said:
She's correct in her assertion that she can't sell the excess, as tickets FROM London International can't be sold on most UK Ticket Issuing Systems.

Had said friend been in possession of the return portion of a Return ticket, it'd be possible to excess that, though I suspect it would have to be to a significantly more expensive "Any Permitted" ticket.

Having said that, the fares aren't showing the Fares Finder, so I'd have to check when I get to work.

Cheers,

Barry

It's possible for me to issue them from my TiS. Can't find a High Wycombe route for Birmingham though.

yorkie · 23 Feb 2011

It was a single, not a return. Not sure how it was route Birmingham as I couldn't find that either, but that shouldn't stop the excess being issued. He tried to tell her to put London International in the origin but she wouldn't listen. It wasn't so much what she did, it's more what she said and how she said it.

premier01 · 24 Feb 2011

yorkie said:
I agree with premier01 that wintonian's strategy is good, but I would advise asking them to look it up first. You can then use your documentation to check they are doing so correctly, or if they refuse to look it up, then inform them.

There are various reasons why I wouldn't go telling them without asking them to look it up first.

I also agree but it gets really annoying when you wait for 2 mins before they come out with the incorrect fare-have tried several strategies as know that many staff don't like what they think is getting told how to do their job-but in fact that's exactly what it is and is often required.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

yorkie said:
I agree.

But if the TOC continues to disregard the rules when passengers attempt to discuss it in private, then if someone can be found who is willing to go to the media (and I appreciate most people won't), then the publicity would be welcome, in a case like this, it's pretty clear-cut and pretty shocking, so just the right sort of thing for Watchdog. In fact the last thing Watchdog did with Virgin, the passengers were in the wrong!

It is probably true to say that most things that end up in the media regarding ticketing do so because the charge is considered excessive, but the passengers generally (although not always!) are in the wrong, and I don't really approve of those type of stories.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am concerned that Virgin never learn. See this , and then this, and yet despite management being aware they have still not done anything to prevent re-occurrences and rudeness among staff at Euston, with 2 incidents being reported to me recently within 2 weeks of each other. This is inexcusable.

If Virgin can deal with these problems and I get re-assurances that they will not be repeated, then there is no need to take the matter further. But if they continue, then whatever needs to be done to stop it, must be done. But, one step at a time, and someone is looking into it, and I am not suggesting rushing into anything but merely stating that we have options if Virgin don't take control of the situation promptly.

I'm not sure why but the staff at Euston seem particularly aggressive recently and agree the conditions of carriage are happily ignored at this part of the station.

CHESHIRECAT · 24 Feb 2011

Virgin RPI's under instruction to sell only Anytime fares at barrier......that said if not busy no reason why from a service aspect she could have done it....

OwlMan · 24 Feb 2011

yorkie said:
It was a single, not a return. Not sure how it was route Birmingham as I couldn't find that either, but that shouldn't stop the excess being issued. He tried to tell her to put London International in the origin but she wouldn't listen. It wasn't so much what she did, it's more what she said and how she said it.

It would have been a Lndon Estar CIV to Birmingham Stations Route High Wycombe single.
AIU these tickets are only available from Eurostar and not available from National Rail stations.
The any permitted ticket is £120 so the excess would have been £111

Peter

OwlMan · 24 Feb 2011

Avantix screen dump attached

TomJ93 · 24 Feb 2011

Could you explain the dump please?

Ticket Man · 24 Feb 2011

I think this applies in this situation:

NRCOC Section 13. The route you are entitled to take. said:
If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b)
above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the
lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route

I don't believe ldon estar civ tickets or ldon intl civ tickets are available for immediate travel at national rail stations

yorkie · 24 Feb 2011

collybs said:
It would have been a Lndon Estar CIV to Birmingham Stations Route High Wycombe single.
AIU these tickets are only available from Eurostar and not available from National Rail stations.
The any permitted ticket is £120 so the excess would have been £111

Peter

Blimey, that's insane!

He certainly wasn't told that information at all. If that really is the cost of the excess, then the barrier staff should politely explain that the excess is very expensive, and that it may be cheaper for them to either go to Marylebone or to buy a new ticket.

The biggest complaint the customer had was that he was basically how rudely he was treated, and also the fact that the member of staff on the barrier didn't seem prepared to find the correct excess. Yet members of this forum who don't have the job of selling tickets can find the right excess. Something isn't right there!

What's the difference between the "Eurostar" and the "International" tickets, anyone know?

TomJ93 said:
Could you explain the dump please?

Look at the bottom row; the fare via High Wycombe is £9 and the fare via Any Permitted route is £120.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I had another look, and if I enter the origin of LOE on Avantix NFM 8, I get the following:

(First class):
EFS Route + High Wycome £900
EFS Route +Any Permitted £120.00

(Standard class):
EOS Route + High Wycombe £9.00
EOS Route + Any Permitted £74.50
EVS Route + Any Permitted £22.20

However his original ticket was bought when NFM 7 was valid, the fares then were:

(First class):
EFS Route + High Wycome £900
EFS Route +Any Permitted £120.00

(Standard class):
EOS Route + High Wycombe £9.00
EOS Route + Any Permitted £70.00
EVS Route + Any Permitted £21.00

The appropriate* excess for someone whose tickets were bought at NFM08 rates would therefore be £13.00

However I assume that he would have to pay £1.20 more than this as his original ticket was at the NFM07 rate?

* Appropriate for travel at a time when an EVS is valid, as is certainly the case at 22:00hrs.

clagmonster · 24 Feb 2011

yorkie said:
What's the difference between the "Eurostar" and the "International" tickets, anyone know?

There's probably something more to it than this, but a Eurostar ticket can presumably only be used in conjunction with a Eurostar ticket for the International leg, but International tickets could presumably also be sold in conjunction with a London Terminals-Calais via Dover ticket or a Liverpool St-Europe via Harwich ticket.

jd · 25 Feb 2011

yorkie said:
Euston are getting quite a reputation! Anyone going through there? Feel free to PM me for advice before you pay the lovely barrier staff a visit....

Snow Hill are getting quite a reputation too... certainly well known among LM staff anyway.

185 · 25 Feb 2011

I think theres two sides to the problem with Virgin. Firstly recruitment done by Crewe is not hiring people likely to make a commonsense decision. Secondly, staff training after their retail course seems to be mostly done by the two people in charge of these barriers, hence why the newer staff are no improvement on the original animals they hired. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel... one of them did say 'thank you' to me for the first time ever last week. (He won't last.)

barrykas · 25 Feb 2011

yorkie said:
What's the difference between the "Eurostar" and the "International" tickets, anyone know?

The "Eurostar" tickets are only supposed to be sold as part of a through journey booked through Eurostar.com or the call centre (which, I note, has switched to an 0843 number). Everyone else has to sell tickets to London International.

More specifically, from looking at a few examples in NFM08, there appear to be more Advance tickets to "Eurostar" than to "International" in some cases (e.g. Sheffield, where the "Eurostar" tickets are all with EMT, whereas the only Advance tickets to "International" are with East Coast). Or such as the original example, where there aren't fares to "International" via a given route, but there are to "Eurostar".

Cheers,

Barry

button_boxer · 25 Feb 2011

barrykas said:
The "Eurostar" tickets are only supposed to be sold as part of a through journey booked through Eurostar.com or the call centre (which, I note, has switched to an 0843 number). Everyone else has to sell tickets to London International.

I've bought a ticket to "lndon estar civ" from Eurostar domestic telesales on its own (not as a through booking) to use in conjunction with a DB ticket from London to Frankfurt, which would suggest that the estar tickets can only be sold by Eurostar but don't have to be part of a through booking.

34D · 25 Feb 2011

yorkie said:
Blimey, that's insane!

He certainly wasn't told that information at all. If that really is the cost of the excess, then the barrier staff should politely explain that the excess is very expensive, and that it may be cheaper for them to either go to Marylebone or to buy a new ticket.

The biggest complaint the customer had was that he was basically how rudely he was treated, and also the fact that the member of staff on the barrier didn't seem prepared to find the correct excess. Yet members of this forum who don't have the job of selling tickets can find the right excess. Something isn't right there!

I don't know what others think, but I get the impression that this guy probably came in with a chip on his shoulder, after being told by his acting junior amateur ticket office clerk friend what 'the rules' are, which as others on this thread have explained, are not quite as simple as yorkie thinks.

I can't understand why you didn't direct your friend to the booking office instead of suggesting he have an argument with the barrier staff - unless of course that was the whole point.

wintonian · 25 Feb 2011

I assume the passenger in question needed to past through the barrier staff to get to the ticket office.

yorkie · 26 Feb 2011

34D said:
I don't know what others think, but I get the impression that this guy probably came in with a chip on his shoulder,

Not at all, he's on this forum but choosing to remain anonymous, perhaps because it's inevitable some people will side with the staff, no matter how rude they are.

34D said:
after being told by his acting junior amateur ticket office clerk friend what 'the rules' are,

Is that aimed at me? :lol:

34D said:
which as others on this thread have explained, are not quite as simple as yorkie thinks.

I don't think it has been explained what the rules are for excessing a Eurostar International ticket? I am not convinced the rules are clear. We debated this at the meal today (OK not all of us but between about 4 or 5 of us) and we couldn't decide what the excess should be. Given that, all the member of staff had to do is explain that it was complex and they were unsure what the excess would be and be polite about it. After several days abroad he had not experienced any other railway staff being anything but pleasant.

34D said:
I can't understand why you didn't direct your friend to the booking office instead of suggesting he have an argument with the barrier staff - unless of course that was the whole point.

I wasn't there to direct him! My understanding is that if he had gone back to the booking office then he would have missed the 2200. The next train from Euston, the 2230 is so slow he would simply have gone to Marylebone (and Virgin would have lost a customer who was willing to pay an excess that was reasonable / appropriate).

As it was the outcome was satisfactory, the only issue is with this one member of staff who was rude.

However I have heard many reports of staff either being rude or charging passengers incorrectly (e.g. charging over £50 for a £0 excess) and this has been going on for years now (e.g. the 'Virgin Strains' Oyster Boundary extension incident).

34D said:
unless of course that was the whole point.

It wasn't this time, it would be a poor example to use. But another time, perhaps, for a straightforward excess. If someone is prepared to buy a Rte Banbury and see what they do (should be a Zero excess) that would be interesting to see if they have learnt from their mistakes.

Mr Spock · 26 Feb 2011

I understand what you are saying but it seems a bit harsh on Virgin if somebody has a route Banbury ticket and gets a zero excess to travel from Euston if the ticket money is allocated to Chiltern.

reb0118 · 27 Feb 2011

reb0118 said:
I'm sure you can issue from London International with Avantix Mobile. Use CRF code "LNE". I'll check at work today and report back.

Well I could issue to and fro Scottish destinations (and found vast differences on the EOS fares set by EC & Virgin - but that's a different matter). However when I tried a few destinations nearer London it became more complex - some offered fares in both directions, some in one direction only, & some not at all.

Simple - well not really.

Euston barriers and excesses (again!)

Forum Staff

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Forum Staff

Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Attachments

Member

Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Member

Established Member