London Midland Ticket Office Changes

Ivo said:

A quick comparison based on 2009/10 usage figures...

Adderley Park: 29,614
Bescot Stadium: 83,552
Cheddington: 69,732
Duddeston: 138,058
Jewellery Quarter: 293,888
Lye: 102,816
Small Heath: 80,246
Witton: 170,228
Wythall: 44,796

Thoughts:

Adderley Park: I didn't even realise it was staffed in the first place!
Bescot Stadium: Agreed, but keep a portable office for when Walsall play at home.
Cheddington: It may be small, but closing one station on the London route would be a bit of a white elephant in my opinion, so give it the benefit of the doubt.
Duddeston: Busier than I thought, probably worth keeping open to be honest.
Jewellery Quarter: Are they mad?
Lye: Marginal. I would suggest keeping an office for the AM peak.
Small Heath: Probably a case here, but it's close.
Witton: No. Too busy. And it serves as an alternative to the much busier Aston for locals.
Wythall: Another I would suggest keeping open in the AM peak only.

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Wow - I'm actually quite surprised any of these are staffed when my local station (SON) isn't with 680,000 pax a year.

I honestly didn't know that code; it is Steeton & Silsden in the Bradford area. Looking further up the list for 09/10, I can see just one station that I know of that isn't staffed: Cardiff Bay [which as we all know is in a similar situation to Stourbridge Town in that it is better served by the one on-board conductor because of the high-frequency, one vehicle nature of the route]. It is interesting to note that many rather large stations surround these two in the list; the likes of Alton, Hertford East, Burton-on-Trent, Stratford-upon-Avon and Chorley have similar usage, yet are considered major railheads and are staffed on a more-than regular basis. In particular I note Lichfield Trent Valley, which is staffed for something like 19 hours a day, and yet sees only two terminators from Birmingham and one London-Crewe service every hour, although it must be said that its passenger levels actually exceed those of nearby City by a small margin. (Although the case for the staffing of LTV was mentioned earlier in the thread, owing to limited staff knowledge.)

I'm starting to sound like Philip Hammond

SS4 said:

Does Witton get any traffic apart from Villa are at home?

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Yes, me

Who said London Midland was going to be better than Central Trains?

I think that some of these cuts are disgusting. Witton and Jewellery Quarter deserve staffing, even if its peaktimes only. I can agree Adderley Park and Wythall etc can close because to be honest they are little shacks with not the highest of usage and would save on some wages to staff them. Cheddington is another, On the London Commuter belt and surely a peaktime service could be done. I wonder if PFs are still going to apply from these stations, presume so if they are to fit Machines... All perfect until the machine goes wrong, naturally.

Closing Aston on a Saturday is also fairly poor. Does this mean that it will lose its very poor crowd organisation which ends up in the bus lane on match days? Seems quite poor that they cannot provide a basic 0900 - 1500 staffing on a Saturday at Aston...

Don't worry London Midland, it will all end up in tears...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4644556.stm

I think this brings a reminder that unstaffed stations in generally undeseriable areas can make stations very much a "no-go" area late at night.

I for one wouldn't use the stations below after dark if they are unstaffed, simply because of the areas themselves!

Adderley Park
Duddeston
Jewellery Quarter
Small Heath
Witton

lm321412 said:

I think this brings a reminder that unstaffed stations in generally undeseriable areas can make stations very much a "no-go" area late at night.

I for one wouldn't use the stations below after dark if they are unstaffed, simply because of the areas themselves!

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London Overground discovered all sorts of nasty goings on at many of their stations on the North London Railway which they took over from Silverlink, including in one case a number of vagrants who had been living on the station for a number of years!

Ivo said:

Bescot Stadium: Agreed, but keep a portable office for when Walsall play at home.

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Surely everyone travelling to Bescot for matches will have a ticket from their destination?

Lad Brookes said:

Surely everyone travelling to Bescot for matches will have a ticket from their destination?

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Yes, but as we've already discussed, who says the primary role of station staff is to sell tickets?

What about customer service? Information? Assisted travel? Help and information when delays/cancellations happen?

But what's the need for a portable office for the staff performing those functions, if in this case it's suggested they're only there for a few hours at the busy periods around matches at Bescot.
A few CSIs or similar at the station can help with any issues along with checking tickets.

At my local station, the service and staff presence has improved at the busy periods since the reduction in booking office hours last month. Rather than one member of staff in the office for much of the day, there's one in the office for the morning peak (when roughly 90% of the footfall through the station takes place), and one by the barriers, to help passengers with any issues that may occur.
Given the station is utterly dead outside the peak, I'd see an improvement in the service provision for 90% of pax as outweighing a reduction to the 10% who travel during the rest of the day.
Obviously, other stations may vary.

dcmbarton said:

why such a move is probably inevitable. Very few people buy tickets in person at LTV - there is always a much longer queue at the machine than in the ticket office!

David

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As long as a TVM dont ask to see a railcard & people will be prepared to risk it claiming a discount they are not entitled to, so from a start ticket office is at a disadvantage when it comes to walk up fares.
As for route & ticket knowledge sure if staff are lacking it then should not the company be investing in training their staff rather than corporate image & mission statements can never beat "We're getting there".
TVM as no route or ticket knowledge at all it is down to the passenger to locate best value fares. If stations are destaffed who will ensure TVM as tickets in it & shorting problems when collecting AP tickets.:roll:
This is problem when accountants staff running the job they can you count what they can see £££££.
Unlike accountants ticket office staff dont charge by the minute for giving passenger information & ticket advice so company never see that do they? If they did they would start making you pay for that service£££££££££££££

MattE2010 said:

If I get a train from the unstaffed Wythall to Wootton Wawen (what a delightful name!), and no guard comes through, what am I meant to do.

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Well you wouldn't be able to get off at Wootton Wawen if you don't speak to the conductor, as it's always a request stop...!

Lad Brookes said:

At my local station, the service and staff presence has improved at the busy periods since the reduction in booking office hours last month. Rather than one member of staff in the office for much of the day, there's one in the office for the morning peak (when roughly 90% of the footfall through the station takes place), and one by the barriers, to help passengers with any issues that may occur.
Given the station is utterly dead outside the peak, I'd see an improvement in the service provision for 90% of pax as outweighing a reduction to the 10% who travel during the rest of the day.
Obviously, other stations may vary.

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Presumably you are on the Underground, and, as I said above I support the changes to LU because there will still be station staff present at all times except for a few break times, however London Midland are planning to completely axe station staff outside these hours apart from a roving man in a van to tidy up, and in most cases will leave the stations unlocked and wide open overnight.

A number of stations such as University, Aston and Five Ways have lifts for disabled customers to access the platforms. It's all very well saying that guards will lay down wheelchair ramps (this will probably delay the trains), but these stations all require staff to be present in order for the lifts to be operational, so a number of stations will no longer be accessible.

Mojo said:

A number of stations such as University, Aston and Five Ways have lifts for disabled customers to access the platforms. It's all very well saying that guards will lay down wheelchair ramps (this will probably delay the trains), but these stations all require staff to be present in order for the lifts to be operational, so a number of stations will no longer be accessible.

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Smethwick Galton Bridge is supposedly a key interchange between the Snow Hill and Stour Valley lines, with the lifts essential for many passengers as the platforms and ticket office/entrance are basically on three different levels. Signs already warn that lifts are unavailable if the station is unstaffed (which should only happen at the moment because of staff shortages/illness/strikes) so this entire station is likely to become inaccessible to a lot of people for a large part of the day. Well done, London Midland.

Smethwickian said:

Smethwick Galton Bridge is supposedly a key interchange between the Snow Hill and Stour Valley lines, with the lifts essential for many passengers as the platforms and ticket office/entrance are basically on three different levels. Signs already warn that lifts are unavailable if the station is unstaffed (which should only happen at the moment because of staff shortages/illness/strikes) so this entire station is likely to become inaccessible to a lot of people for a large part of the day. Well done, London Midland.

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Jewellery Quarter, similarly - and not only disabled passengers but also able-bodied passengers often use the lifts there because the station is so far below street level. And Jewellery Quarter is going to be *completely* de-staffed!

jd said:

Jewellery Quarter, similarly - and not only disabled passengers but also able-bodied passengers often use the lifts there because the station is so far below street level. And Jewellery Quarter is going to be *completely* de-staffed!

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If I recall correctly, the only way for wheelchair users to access the Tram at Jewellery Quarter and The Hawthorns station is via the lifts in the BR station. As well as being expensive, Midland Metro will now have the dubious honour of being the only inaccessible second generation Tram system in the country!

It's a bad idea and is just a means to maximise profits for shareholders with no thought at all for any passengers.

These TVMs aren't as perfect as TOCs want you to believe they are as they are restricted to what they can sell.

It's not even likely to maximise profits for shareholders! It has all the potential to be a false economy - lost revenue, potential vandalism repair costs, and even a potential increase in personal injury claims in inclement weather! After all, if your station is unstaffed, nobody is gritting the platforms and they could become lethal. I'm afraid this is ill thought out, and the DfT should not only tell them to take a hike, but force them to recruit more ticket office staff to fill exisiting vacancies, which I'm sure exist having seen how many times my local ticket office has been shut recently.

Ferret said:

It's not even likely to maximise profits for shareholders! It has all the potential to be a false economy - lost revenue, potential vandalism repair costs, and even a potential increase in personal injury claims in inclement weather! After all, if your station is unstaffed, nobody is gritting the platforms and they could become lethal. I'm afraid this is ill thought out, and the DfT should not only tell them to take a hike, but force them to recruit more ticket office staff to fill exisiting vacancies, which I'm sure exist having seen how many times my local ticket office has been shut recently.

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Indeed. Some of the stations built in the 1990s like Jewellery Quarter, The Hawthorns and Smethwick Galton Bridge are real gems and people requiring access to all or certain parts of the station to pass through the station building which consists of a glass footbridge and a lovely ticket office. It's not like some of these stations that have a ''night gate'' which you can let people use when the station building is closed; the ticket halls form an integral part of these stations.

Ferret said:

...but force them to recruit more ticket office staff to fill exisiting vacancies, which I'm sure exist having seen how many times my local ticket office has been shut recently.

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There are many many vanancies. They haven't been filling them, IMO, because this annoucement has long been in the pipeline. Why go to the hassle of the recruitment process if you're gonna get rid of them in a few months?

To be fair, if some of these stations only justify a member of staff five mornings a week, or even 07.00 - 10.00 five mornings a week, consider the practicalities of getting staff to do such short shifts - what else do you do with them?

tbtc said:

To be fair, if some of these stations only justify a member of staff five mornings a week, or even 07.00 - 10.00 five mornings a week, consider the practicalities of getting staff to do such short shifts - what else do you do with them?

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This is exactly the problem - most staff currently working FT won't be able to afford to only work 10-15 hours a week. We could end up with the perverse situation where LM spend a fortune on severance pay, then spend more money recruiting new part-time staff.

My suspicion is, at stations with only two or three hours staffing a day, the 'staffing' will be a RPI with a portable machine, possibly not even inside the ticket office but standing in front of it. They'll then send the RPI off roving around the trains for the rest of the day. Let's face it, they're going to need more RPIs after all...

Been watching this thread unfold, and this evening have spent FIVE HOURS making a .xls spreadsheet file of the times, in order to do some actual analysis on the figures and what they mean in percentage terms.

This is what I have found out:

All booking offices listed:
_______Current figures_______Proposed figure__% remaining
Mon-Thu : 5675:12hrs----------3155:40hrs--------55.6%
Friday : 1414:53hrs----------904:55hrs---------63.96%
Saturday : 1344:12hrs----------753:25hrs---------56.05%
Sunday : 938:04hrs-----------334:25hrs--------35.65%

Cross-City line (excludes Aston and Duddeston which are classed as Walsall route):
_______Current figures_______Proposed figure__% remaining
Mon-Thu : 1287:24hrs----------815:08hrs--------63.32%
Friday : 321:51hrs-----------232:53hrs---------72.36%
Saturday : 321:47hrs-----------206:03hrs---------64.04%
Sunday : 244:59hrs-----------102:27hrs--------41.82%

Snow Hill routes booking offices
_______Current figures_______Proposed figure__% remaining
Mon-Thu : 1706:12hrs----------771:00hrs---------45.19%
Friday : 426:33hrs-----------238:45hrs---------55.97%
Saturday : 402:11hrs-----------199:00hrs---------49.48%
Sunday : 210:21hrs------------61:45hrs---------29.36%

London-Liverpool inc Coventry to Wolverhampton booking offices
_______Current figures_______Proposed figure__% remaining
Mon-Thu : 1957:00hrs----------1202:40hrs---------61.45%
Friday : 485:20hrs-----------351:40hrs---------72.46%
Saturday : 439:04hrs-----------280:25hrs---------63.87%
Sunday : 351:51hrs-----------143:15hrs---------40.71%

And I've left the real shocker until last!

Walsall line booking offices
_______Current figures_______Proposed figure__% remaining
Mon-Thu : 575:36hrs-----------176:00hrs---------30.58%
Friday : 143:54hrs------------49:00hrs---------34.05%
Saturday : 143:55hrs------------35:00hrs---------24.32%
Sunday : 113:03hrs------------19:25hrs---------17.18%

The last route shocked me quite a bit to be honest with you, for the entire week the route sees it's booking offices proposed to be open for 28.6% of the time that they currently are. I'm worried what this means for the staff and the travelling public too, and it's not too often I spare them a thought!

I notice the times proposed for Sandwell & Dudley would require Pendolino crews to be self disptaching, okay in the London direction where the curve works for you, but heading to Wolves I wouldn't fancy checking a 9-car unit on an adverse curve by myself.

mumrar said:

I notice the times proposed for Sandwell & Dudley would require Pendolino crews to be self disptaching, okay in the London direction where the curve works for you, but heading to Wolves I wouldn't fancy checking a 9-car unit on an adverse curve by myself.

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When I've been at Sandwell/Dudley during the day they have had 2 members of dispatch staff (one for each platform as the NB & SB trains are only a few min apart) in addition to the ticket office staff. These may be special occasions (maybe due to staff shortage) although I am aware of cases in Central Trains days of complaints of the ticket office being closed so staff can dispatch VT services.

Reply as a bump for those who may not have seen the figures I posted (I maybe wrong, but was expecting more comments), and also to report an EPIC FAIL by London Midland.

After I told my brother about this proposal he wanted to write off, and after checking, ALL of the posters AND the website have the Freepost number for Passenger Focus wrong (it begins RRRE not RREE). So posters will have to be replaced, notices changed, and I believe the countdown to deadline restarted at whatever point they rectify this.

Management grades don't appear to be the strongest on this and other evidence.

Unbelievable cuts on the Walsall line Mumrar, thanks for highlighting those!

These cuts are frankly a disgrace. Jewellery Quarter, Aston and Smethwick Galton Bridge are some of the the biggest stand out 'jokes', but it's the evening hour cuts that bother me the most. Just running through some of the stations on my local bit of the LM network, stations like Gravelly Hill, Erdington and Chester Road, at least, need to be staffed well into the evening, I'd say they need to be open 22:30, if not latter. If this is not the case, there will be a major increase in the risk of using these station and there will certainly be a rise in crime. I know that the staff at Erdington have worked hard over the years to stop drunks and yobs hanging around the station at night, and now it's far better then it was as a result. Off the X City line, I certainly wouldn't use Perry Barr station after 18:00 anymore. And I'm sure Stechford and Lea Hall will increase their contributions of route crime delays to WCML once the staff are gone at 14:00 and 17:00 on a Summers afternoon. :roll:

What makes the above worse is that these changes are happening for the Summer, when evening anti-social behaviour rates go up! What stations like Gravelly Hill will be like when they become unstaffed at 18:00, who knows...

Elsewhere on the north Cross City, it's embarrassing that the two largest stations, Lichfield City and Sutton Coldfield, are closing at 19:00, especially Sutton which is used by over 1 million people per year. Both due to their importance should be open till the end of service. I'd begrudgingly accept the mass cutting of hours at Butlers Lane (full time to 07:00 till 10:00! Mon - Thurs, 08:00 - 16:00 Fridays only) and Blake Street (full time to 07:00 till 12:00), and think a 19:00 finish at Four Oaks is fair enough. I was actually pleasantly to see the hours for LTV, I thought they'd have taken a chainsaw to their hours but it seems the West Coast services have saved it.

Though I'll accept some of the cuts above, I'm interested to know what changes LM will make if they implement them and all of the cuts (as I think they'll do). Specifically:

• Will there be an increase in the number of ticket 'booths' on the bridge at New Street? There current two or three will not suffice when thousands of passengers find their own stations closed, and inevitable, TVMs broken.
  
• Will there also be an lengthening of the hours that ticket gate and RPI's do? Otherwise, it'll be a free-for-all...
  
• Will someone actually be going around emptying the stations after the last service and locking up, or are they planning to wait until proper stations like those found at Smethwick Galton Bridge, Sutton Coldfield and Lichfield City, ect, are burnt to the ground?

I'd also be interested to know when London Midland will be increasing what they pay the BTP, as they'll be the ones that'll have to take the burden of the mass de-staffing of stations in the evening... I imagine the answer to all the above is, inevitably, no.

I'd also like to raise a slightly controversial point regard what I believe is deception on the part of London Midland. It's this comment on their website:

Maintaining safety and security on stations
We understand that staffed stations can make people feel safer, but our ticket office staff are not best placed to combat crime. Many of our stations have CCTV and we will have help points in place at all stations, directly linked to someone who can provide reassurance or contact the emergency services. We will continue to work closely with the British Trasport Police (BTP) and monitor any changes in crime or anti-social behaviour following any changes.

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Maybe the representative of London Midland on this board would like to tell us how many station's will actually have their CCTV monitored once the station staff have gone home? A station I know of only had it's CCTV upgraded a few years ago, but as I understand it, is only watched by the station staff. I can't imagine the situation is any different elsewhere. So, if there is crime on the station after 19:00, it won't be seen. If you're beaten up on the station and get robbed, you've got to drag yourself over to the 'help point' (I use that loosely), wait for it to dial up LM, then wait for someone to get to you.

There'll be blood on the hands of those on the senior management team at London Midland, it's inevitable.

Personally, for all the good that it'll do, I'll be writing to the passenger focus address and my local MP. I suggest anyone who's in an effected area do the same. Also, I was told yesterday by a member of station staff at one station that their union are printing up postcards for passengers to lodge their complaint on, so watch out for those if you see them.

From a meeting on 2nd March between LM and Joint Union Committee, proposals also include change in station staffing levels. In total, these are the changes other than those highlighted:

- 122 full time jobs gone
- 8 part time jobs gone
- 86 out of 90 ticket offices see hours reduced
- 9 ticket offices closed entirely

But as always, that's going to be FINE because 4 ticket offices see a marginal increase in hours (Hemel, Kings L, Tring and Berkhamsted) so everyone is convinced that all in all, especially for those in Brum, these changes are POSITIVE and FOR THE BEST.

the greater good

Excellent post, Sniper.
As a Cross City line user myself, these cuts are totally retrograde. Waiting on gloomy platforms on winter evenings at Kings Norton and some of the other stations you've highlighted aren't exactly the most pleasant of experiences.
I'll certainly be looking out for those trade union sponsored postcards ....

Pumbaa said:

- 122 full time jobs gone
- 8 part time jobs gone
- 86 out of 90 ticket offices see hours reduced
- 9 ticket offices closed entirely

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It is the final, desperate ghasp of a failing franchise, an attempt to squeeze the last drops of profitability from the corpse of a dying business. A little innovation, enlightened management and original thought and it would be possible to find solutions that could avoid job losses, meet passenger requirements and meet all franchise requirements. Clearly this is beyond LM.

Just wanted to point out, and this comes from an LM associate who is party to these negotiations, that those 122 full time losses include the 65 vacancies LM currently had, and full time to part time changes too. It's seems plausible LM have planned this for some time, and that's why the vacancies had been on the increase.

I think that the whole running of LM's franchise has been awful. We've had weekends of abject failure with in excess of 100 pre-planned cancellations just at New St depot before now, and the industrial relations with traincrew are very well documented (including the closing of Bletchley depot VERY soon).

I'm not sure of the remedy, but I feel quite confident that the current people at LM are not the ones to administer it.

the sniper said:

A station I know of only had it's CCTV upgraded a few years ago, but as I understand it, is only watched by the station staff. I can't imagine the situation is any different elsewhere. So, if there is crime on the station after 19:00, it won't be seen.

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Not that I am in favor of the cuts, but that is not correct. Most stations CCTV is monitored (and controlled) remotely. Ticket offices cannot even control the cameras anymore.