PBO - KGX 3 days a week

MikeWh · 15 Apr 2011

ajax103 said:
Basically all the current carnet are 'Inter Available' and can be used on either East Coast or FCC services between Stevenage and Kings Cross not Peterborough as the carnet is not currently available from there.

island said:
Just to be clear: are you saying that the combination of season ticket plus carnet ticket I mentioned in post #10 is allowed or not? If not, why not?

I can't see how it wouldn't be valid. The carnet ticket is inter available and is, for the purposes of splitting, just a normal point-to-point ticket. A season from Peterborough to Huntingdon is clearly a season, so the combination must be valid.

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glynn80 · 15 Apr 2011

ajax103 said:
I'm sure the ticketing whizz kids can verify this but I was of the understanding that the above ticket combination would only be valid if the train actually stopped there, seeing as East Coast don't stop at Huntingdon I can't see how the above would be valid.

As a example, if I were to travel from Hertford to Finsbury Park and wanted to use a travel card from Crews Hill, I would have to make sure the train I boarded stopped at Crews Hill.

As has been documented on the forum countless times previously, there are two scenarios in which the train "does not" need to call at the station where you switch from one ticket to another.

NRCoC said:
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

The ticket combination suggested to the OP comes under condition (c) above, as the OP would have a Season between PBO and HUN and then use the Carnet from there.

As both are "inter-available", there seems to be absolutely nothing preventing travel on EC from PBO all the way to KGX.

island · 15 Apr 2011

Not correct. Per NRCoC 19 (c), you may use multiple tickets for your journey without the train having to stop at the changeover point if one is a season ticket and the other(s) is/are not.

Edit: glynn80 got there before me. Serves me right for leaving the tap open over lunch!

yorkie · 15 Apr 2011

ajax103 said:
I'm sure the ticketing whizz kids can verify this but I was of the understanding that the above ticket combination would only be valid if the train actually stopped there, seeing as East Coast don't stop at Huntingdon I can't see how the above would be valid.

As a example, if I were to travel from Hertford to Finsbury Park and wanted to use a travel card from Crews Hill, I would have to make sure the train I boarded stopped at Crews Hill.

the above post indicates that you are not familiar with condition 19 of NRCoC

Your travelcard example only applies if neither is a season in which case the solution is to buy to/from Boundary Zone 6

clagmonster · 15 Apr 2011

I think I am with Glynn on this one. I did wonder whether the Carnet could be classed as a season, but it doesn't show either of the words 'season' or 'Travelcard' or show a photocard number, so can't be by Appendix A, clause (o).
However, I do wonder if it could be argued it is a leisure travel pass. It is a multi-journey ticket, it is not a season and it is valid for 10 days in a period of 3 months, thus satisfying the definition in Condition 19. I think it boils down to whether the Carnet is a single ticket issued as 10 portions, in which case it may be a leisure travel pass, or 10 separate tickets, in which case it is not a leisure travel pass. If it is, then the split at Huntingdon would only be valid on trains which stop there, as you would then have a leisure travel pass and a season.

island · 15 Apr 2011

I would say that a carnet is not a leisure travel pass, as you can conceivably use up all the tickets in less than 3 days.

north · 15 Apr 2011

island said:
I would say that a carnet is not a leisure travel pass, as you can conceivably use up all the tickets in less than 3 days.

Also - separate tickets with separate ticket numbers. So not a leisure ticket.

glynn80 · 15 Apr 2011

I see what island and north are saying but I think I might actually concur with clagmonster on this after reading The Manual.

Under the Season Ticket tab in The Manual, the top of the page has an overview and list of definitions for various terms including a definition for Leisure Travel Pass:

FRPP said:
Leisure Travel Pass as defined in National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 19 means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for at least 7 consecutive days or at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days and includes Rover tickets, travel passes, Flexi-pass tickets and BritRail passes.

Now I understand that Carnets are not explicitly stated within the list but Flexi-pass tickets have been.

The only TOC I know who issue Flexi-pass tickets are Scotrail (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr0ce6a40a0400020068af383a67a9c0/details.html).

Now the Scotrail Flexi-pass is defined on the NR website as follows:

NR Website said:
Flexipass tickets are available for a wide selection of journeys and offer customers significant savings over the cost of purchasing separate single fares.

The 10 Journey Flexipass allows the customer to make 10 separate single journeys, as and when required, on any train, at any time, and is valid for one calendar month.

The 50 Journey Flexipass allows the customer to make 50 separate single journeys, as and when required, on any train, at any time, and is valid until July each year. This Flexipass is only available for journeys between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The 10 journey Caledonian Sleeper Flexipass is valid for one year, and allows the customer to make 10 separate single journeys. The customer must be in possesion of a valid berth reservation, which can be obtained by calling ScotRail Telesales on 08457 55 00 33, or by visiting a principal staffed ScotRail station.

Sounds pretty much identical to the Carnet product to me...

island · 15 Apr 2011

By that definition a (non-day) return ticket is a leisure travel pass!

clagmonster · 15 Apr 2011

No, because the journey can only be completed in a month, albeit on day(s) chosen by the holder. With a Carnet/Flexipass, the journey can be made 10 times in a three month period, ie it is valid on up to 10 days out of 93.

island · 15 Apr 2011

I realise I'm taking this to extremes, but with break of journey allowed an SOR can be used on "at least three days in a period of at least seven consecutive days"!

My perception is that a carnet is ten tickets, not one ticket, each of which is not a leisure travel pass. Does anybody know if the tickets come with separate ticket numbers? That would further strengthen my case.

north · 15 Apr 2011

island said:
I realise I'm taking this to extremes, but with break of journey allowed an SOR can be used on "at least three days in a period of at least seven consecutive days"!

My perception is that a carnet is ten tickets, not one ticket, each of which is not a leisure travel pass. Does anybody know if the tickets come with separate ticket numbers? That would further strengthen my case.

Yes they do.

Aictos · 15 Apr 2011

This is from the FCC Fares and Pricing Manager:

All the current Carnets available are 'Inter Available' and allowed to be used on East Coast services to/from Stevenage.

Similarly from Bedford / Luton/ Luton Airport to/from London on East Midlands Trains.

Re the question about a Peterborough to Huntingdon ticket plus a Carnet from Huntingdon.

Unless the ticket from Peterborough is a Season ticket then as per NRCoC 19c then they would be valid.

If it is not then under any of the other combination ticket rules (NRCoC 19a or b) then they would NOT be valid.

island · 15 Apr 2011

I think that is what I had been saying. Thanks ajax, and can you pass our appreciation the the F&P manager for his patience!

Aictos · 15 Apr 2011

island said:
I think that is what I had been saying. Thanks ajax, and can you pass our appreciation the the F&P manager for his patience!

Will do so quite soon

clagmonster · 15 Apr 2011

ajax103 said:
This is from the FCC Fares and Pricing Manager:
Unless the ticket from Peterborough is a Season ticket then as per NRCoC 19c then they would be valid.

So, if the ticket Peterborough-Huntingdon ticket is not a season, then under condition 19c the combination is valid on non-stop trains. If it is a season, the combination is not valid on a non-stop train. Am I reading this right.
On this basis, is that because the Carnet counts as a Leisure Travel Pass, because I see no other way to reach that statement. Please could you ask him to clarify.

glynn80 · 15 Apr 2011

But can anyone confirm what the difference between a Flexi-pass and a Carnet is?

Because if there is no difference, then surely the Carnet is deemed a Leisure Travel Pass?

yorkie · 15 Apr 2011

clagmonster - I believe you have mis-interpreted. If 'unless' is repaced with 'if' then both sentences make sense.

clagmonster · 15 Apr 2011

If 'if' were used instead of 'unless' I would agree with you Yorkie, but I don't see how we can assume that, hence why I have asked for clarification, as there does seem to be a contradiction.

yorkie · 16 Apr 2011

clagmonster said:
If 'if' were used instead of 'unless' I would agree with you Yorkie, but I don't see how we can assume that, hence why I have asked for clarification, as there does seem to be a contradiction.

But it can be assumed because otherwise how does the next paragraph make sense otherwise? I am also assuming he knows the rules but just made a slight typing error, but you can still work out what he means.

Aictos · 16 Apr 2011

yorkie said:
But it can be assumed because otherwise how does the next paragraph make sense otherwise? I am also assuming he knows the rules but just made a slight typing error, but you can still work out what he means.

Sorry for jumping the gun but I just presented the text as it was in it's original format.

rekrap · 16 Apr 2011

Thanks for all the responses.

Just for clarity is the season ticket to Huntingdon, then carnet to KGX a valid option for all trains from PBO to KGX on EC?

If so, do you think the ticket offices will write a letter supporting that (if I request) as I can imagine having a daily argument with the on board train guard saying that it isn't valid and requesting £90 every time for the priviledge!

rekrap · 17 Apr 2011

Just to clarify, if I were to buy a PBO to Huntingdon season ticket and then a carnet from Huntingdon to KGX this would allow me to travel anytime on EC from PBO to KGX?

PBO - KGX 3 days a week

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