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junglejames

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One Barry Doe. Always the best person to ask if nobody is sure on here, because even if he doesnt know the answer, he always knows someone who does. In this case though, he knew the answer, and there was no doubting it. Got the reply back within 5mins, and he was as sure as you could be.
 
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John @ home

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When it says xxx stations (in this case Bradford Stations), it means you can use it from any station, so long as it leaves you on a valid route.
I agree that you can use a Bradford Stations - New Pudsey ticket from any station within Bradford Group "so long as it leaves you on a valid route". Or, as I put it in post #6, "a ticket to or from a station group may be used to or from any individual station within that group for which a permitted route exists for the journey on the ticket".

But I also demonstrated in post #6 that the two permitted routes wholly by rail between Bradford Forster Square and New Pudsey are:
  • Bradford Forster Square - Frizinghall - Shipley - Leeds - Bramley (W Yorks) - New Pudsey
  • Bradford Forster Square - Frizinghall - Shipley - Baildon - Guiseley - Leeds - Bramley (W Yorks) - New Pudsey
Nobody has yet pointed out any rule or regulation which makes this calculation inaccurate.
 

junglejames

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I agree that you can use a Bradford Stations - New Pudsey ticket from any station within Bradford Group "so long as it leaves you on a valid route". Or, as I put it in post #6, "a ticket to or from a station group may be used to or from any individual station within that group for which a permitted route exists for the journey on the ticket".

But I also demonstrated in post #6 that the two permitted routes wholly by rail between Bradford Forster Square and New Pudsey are:
  • Bradford Forster Square - Frizinghall - Shipley - Leeds - Bramley (W Yorks) - New Pudsey
  • Bradford Forster Square - Frizinghall - Shipley - Baildon - Guiseley - Leeds - Bramley (W Yorks) - New Pudsey
Nobody has yet pointed out any rule or regulation which makes this calculation inaccurate.

But does such a journey exist, or, when you ask for such a ticket, will you be issued with one that says Bradford Stations?
Right, just put it into a booking engine, and when i ask for Bradford Forster Sq to New Pudsey, the ticket it wants to issue, is a Bradford Stations ticket, and it is only givng me journey times from Interchange.

So, yes from Bradford Forster Sq to New Pudsey wholly by rail, going via Leeds is obviously the shortest, but, as far as a single ticket goes, there is no such journey as this. Its Bradford Stations to New Pudsey, and there is no valid route from Forster Sq to New Pudsey. You would need two seperate tickets to complete the journey legally from Bradford Forster Sq to New Pudsey totally by rail.

So what i said before about having to be on a valid route did actually show your calculation to be inacurate, as Forster Sq is not on a valid route to New Pudsey.
 

clagmonster

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glynn80

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One Barry Doe. Always the best person to ask if nobody is sure on here, because even if he doesnt know the answer, he always knows someone who does. In this case though, he knew the answer, and there was no doubting it. Got the reply back within 5mins, and he was as sure as you could be.

I am sure Barry Doe has an opinion on this and it seems this is an issue he has encountered before, but his opinion is just that, an opinion, it is not fact.

Barry Doe has provided nothing extra (i.e. official documentation/wording) to the discussion on this forum and until we get some more clarification I don't think we can call this debate over.


Nowhere does it say that the shortest route has to be wholly by rail. Bradford FS-Interchange is a recognised walking interchange between stations, recorded in the interchange maps as having distance 0.5 miles.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/maps/station_maps.html#2

Bradford Int-New Pudsey is 3.75 miles.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec10/timetables/Table41.pdf

So I would argue that the shortest route is 0.5+3.75=4.25 miles.

Well if the shortest route does not have to be by rail, we may as well say the entire journey should be done on foot, because the shortest route is in fact along the B6381 at 3.3 miles...
 

MikeWh

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Nowhere does it say that the shortest route has to be wholly by rail. Bradford FS-Interchange is a recognised walking interchange between stations, recorded in the interchange maps as having distance 0.5 miles.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/maps/station_maps.html#2

Bradford Int-New Pudsey is 3.75 miles.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec10/timetables/Table41.pdf

So I would argue that the shortest route is 0.5+3.75=4.25 miles.

I agree that the route can and should include the walk, however, for calculating journey distances you ignore any walking distance. So in this case the route is still 3.75 miles. I guess it might help to see this if you consider the shortest route between Halifax and Frizzinghall. Clearly that would be rail+walk+rail. The fact that we are considering a journey one stop shorter doesn't change the overall route.
 

clagmonster

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Well if the shortest route does not have to be by rail, we may as well say the entire journey should be done on foot, because the shortest route is in fact along the B6381 at 3.3 miles...
Yes, but the walk along the B6381 is not recognised as an interchange between station by the industry, whereas the walk between the Bradford Station is.
 

glynn80

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I agree that the route can and should include the walk, however, for calculating journey distances you ignore any walking distance. So in this case the route is still 3.75 miles. I guess it might help to see this if you consider the shortest route between Halifax and Frizzinghall. Clearly that would be rail+walk+rail. The fact that we are considering a journey one stop shorter doesn't change the overall route.

The Halifax to Frizinghall example is an excellent one as I don't think anyone thinking logically would claim that passengers would be forced to take the walk between FS and Interchange.

Just think of the uproar you'd receive from the elderly/disability lobby if these groups were to be forced to cross Bradford City Centre by foot when the journey could be completed relatively simply by changing once via Leeds.
 

clagmonster

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The would be able to use the Free City Bus, which is funded by Metro partly for this very purpose.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is also reference on page 6 of the Instruction of the Routeing Guide, detailing the fact that mobility impaired people will be allowed to use alternative routes, and this will over-rule normal rules. I expect this to apply when the bus isn't running.
 

junglejames

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I am sure Barry Doe has an opinion on this and it seems this is an issue he has encountered before, but his opinion is just that, an opinion, it is not fact.

Barry Doe has provided nothing extra (i.e. official documentation/wording) to the discussion on this forum and until we get some more clarification I don't think we can call this debate over.




Well if the shortest route does not have to be by rail, we may as well say the entire journey should be done on foot, because the shortest route is in fact along the B6381 at 3.3 miles...

Oh my god. Whatever next. Barry Doe has provided clarification on the situation. Unlike those on here, if he isnt sure, he says so. Ive seen it before. He admits when he isnt sure, or if it is just what he thinks. On this occasion there was no doubting it. He knew for sure that what he said was true. So whilst it isnt documentation, it definitely clarifies the situation.
Anyway, everything else points to what he has said. There is no such thing as a ticket from Forster Sq to New Pudsey. The only available ticket is Bradford Stations to New Pudsey. Bradford Stations to New Pudsey is valid via the shortest route, or one up to 3 miles longer i think (I think the routeing guide says this? Either way, something does, so there is documentation showing it). Going via Leeds, from any station in Bradford is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.
The next bit of clarification are the booking engines. Ask for Bradford Forster Sq to New Pudsey, and it will only offer you a Bradford Stations ticket.
Try to put in Forster Sq to New Pudsey 'via Leeds', and it comes back with no available journeys.

If there was a ticket 'Forster Sq to New Pudsey, then yes, youd be right. But there is no such ticket available. Its only Bradford Stations to New Pudsey. There is documentation that shows this is not valid via Leeds, as it is far too long, and by no means the shortest journey. Im not looking for it. I have no need to prove myself right to you if you dont believe me up to now, but perhaps someone else may look for the wording of the rule when both stations are in the same routeing group.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Halifax to Frizinghall example is an excellent one as I don't think anyone thinking logically would claim that passengers would be forced to take the walk between FS and Interchange.

Just think of the uproar you'd receive from the elderly/disability lobby if these groups were to be forced to cross Bradford City Centre by foot when the journey could be completed relatively simply by changing once via Leeds.

This example does not prove anything.
When going from one place to another, once your on the train, they will always give you a valid route which does not involve walking between stations. Therefore they are not going to make you walk across Bradford in your latest example.

However, with the Bradford New Pudsey example, there is no such ticket as Forster Sq to New Pudsey. The ticket is Bradford Stations to N Pudsey. Forster Sq is not a valid route, so you have to go to Interchange.
They are not making you walk during your train journey at all, because they have not put a specific station on the ticket.

At the end of the day, the major giveaway is the fact the ticket says Bradford Stations, and not Bradford Forster Sq. Its exactly like the London examples. They say London Terminals, and you have to go to whichever is on a valid route. York to London Terminals is not valid into Charing Cross. Bradford Stations to N Pudsey is not valid out of Forster Sq. Its not a valid route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Right, i know i said i had no interest in proving this, but anyway, i have.
Remember in our example, the journey is Bradford to New Pudsey. It does not specify a particular Bradford Station. so we have to take it to mean Bradford.

Bradford is its own routeing point. New Pudsey has routeing points Bradford or Leeds. As Bradford to Leeds is more expensive than Bradford to New Pudsey, you cannot use Leeds as a routeing point. So you have to use Bradford. So both departure and arrival stations have the same routeing point.
If this is the case, then the instructions for this can be found on page 7 of 'The routeing guide in detail (section F)'. Found on ATOCs website.
Right, is there a direct train from Forster Sq to N Pudsey? No, there isnt. Therfore we follow the other rule. This clearly says that you have to follow the shortest route, or a route which is no more than 3 miles longer. (All still found on page 7).
Checking distances, Forster Sq to Leeds itself is over 13 miles. Interchange to New Pudsey is less than 4 miles. Therefore Forster Sq to New Pudsey via Leeds is not a valid route. Its all there to see in black and white. Barry Doe has clarified the situation, and he is 100% right, as am I and everyone else that said it isnt valid from Forster Sq.

Remember, Bradford Stations is to be seen as Bradford. They havent given you a specific station to go from.
 
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John @ home

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Barry Doe has provided clarification on the situation.
To you. But you have chosen not to tell us precisely what you asked him and not to tell us precisely what he replied.

There is no such thing as a ticket from Forster Sq to New Pudsey. The only available ticket is Bradford Stations to New Pudsey.
I have seen no evidence that station groups limit permitted routes from individual stations within the group. The National Routeing Guide states that "Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities." (Instructions, page 6)
The next bit of clarification are the booking engines. Ask for Bradford Forster Sq to New Pudsey, and it will only offer you a Bradford Stations ticket.
Try to put in Forster Sq to New Pudsey 'via Leeds', and it comes back with no available journeys.
I have written to you elsewhere pointing out that:

The National Rail Enquiries journey planner, which claims to be the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland, shows that Bradford Forster Square - New Pudsey via Leeds is valid, correctly quoting an adult anytime day single (SDS) fare of £1.20 in accordance with the current National Fares Manual NFM 08 CD.

The train ticket booking software powered by thetrainline.com and used by the majority of train companies agrees and offers the full range of Bradford Yorks Stations - New Pudsey fares for a Bradford Forster Square - New Pudsey via Leeds journey.

As pointed out by kwvr45 in post #11 of the Group Stations thread, the train ticket booking software powered by Atos Origin's WebTIS and used by East Coast, Chiltern, Southern, London Midland and redspottedhanky.com does not agree and reports "No fares have been found for your selected service."

When going from one place to another, once your on the train, they will always give you a valid route which does not involve walking between stations.
That is inaccurate. See the Watford Junction - Harpenden route St Albans Abbey example in post #6.

Bradford Stations to N Pudsey is not valid out of Forster Sq. Its not a valid route.
My calculations in post #6 show that it is a Permitted Route.
 

MikeWh

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@junglejames:
I'm not wading into your extensive explanation other than to point out that as soon as origin and destination are found to have a routeing point in common you can forget fares checks or maps, you are down to shortest route, routes longer by no more than 3 miles and direct trains.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Oh my god. Whatever next. Barry Doe has provided clarification on the situation.
"Whatever next" indeed!

So now we look to hacks to clarify the Terms and Conditions of a Contract? And not their authors, the word of Law and its Judgements.
I realise that some people have elevated TV newsreaders to positions of authority over the years, but a journalist - a paid commentator? No. No. No!

That is the saddest and most depressing post on here for a long, long time. I despair
 

Mike395

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"Whatever next" indeed!

So now we look to hacks to clarify the Terms and Conditions of a Contract? And not their authors, the word of Law and its Judgements.
I realise that some people have elevated TV newsreaders to positions of authority over the years, but a journalist - a paid commentator? No. No. No!

That is the saddest and most depressing post on here for a long, long time. I despair

Seconded. As much as (from the limited amount I've heard - mainly from yourself) Barry is usually right, this doesnt make him perfect - or always correct - by any stretch of the imagination!

Other people on here Im sure have just as much access to knowledge - if they disagreed with Barry, would you automatically side with him? :)
 
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It sounds like this Barry Doe person is regarded as some sort of Deity around here.

I don't see him referenced in the NRCOC or the Fares manual :P

Whether he is correct or not is surely irrelevant unless backed up by what is written in the documents available to us.
 

OwlMan

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This discussion is going to go on for ever. There are two possibilities that can be reached using the NRG
a) Forster Sq - New Pudsey is valid via Leeds.
b) Forster Sq - New Pudsey is only valid via Interchange.

Both of these answers can be deduced by using the Routeing Guide depending on whether Group stations are grouped together as one for all purposes or whether each station in a group has its own routes.
There is nothing in the Routeing Guide to say which is correct and it is another reason that the NRG is not fit for purpose.

Peter
 
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clagmonster

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  • Bradford Forster Square is a member of Bradford Group Routeing Point.
  • Routeing Points for New Pudsey are Bradford Group and Leeds Group.
  • Therefore Bradford Forster Square and New Pudsey have a Routeing Point in common - Bradford Group.
  • There are no relevant Easements.
  • Therefore the permitted route is direct via the shortest distance from the origin to the destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates. (Instructions Step 3.)
I agree with your anlysis quoted above. However, from the point, I disagree. The routeing guide states:
"CALCULATING SHORTEST DISTANCES
As the shortest route for any journey is always a permitted route, this can be
checked, and the distance between stations calculated, from the National Rail
Timetable."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf
The walk between the two Bradford stations is shown in the National Rail Timetable as 0.5 miles, in the inter-station links section. So the shortest route shown in the timetable is 0.5+3.75=4.25 miles, by going via Interchange.
 

OwlMan

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.....The walk between the two Bradford stations is shown in the National Rail Timetable as 0.5 miles, in the inter-station links section. So the shortest route shown in the timetable is 0.5+3.75=4.25 miles, by going via Interchange.

But there is nowhere that says that you must walk between stations and the shortest distance can be taken to mean by train only.

Peter
 

glynn80

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Oh my god. Whatever next. Barry Doe has provided clarification on the situation. Unlike those on here, if he isnt sure, he says so. Ive seen it before. He admits when he isnt sure, or if it is just what he thinks. On this occasion there was no doubting it. He knew for sure that what he said was true. So whilst it isnt documentation, it definitely clarifies the situation.

What does it clarify sorry?

He has expressed his opinion that is it, he has clarified absolutely nothing.


Anyway, everything else points to what he has said. There is no such thing as a ticket from Forster Sq to New Pudsey. The only available ticket is Bradford Stations to New Pudsey. Bradford Stations to New Pudsey is valid via the shortest route, or one up to 3 miles longer i think (I think the routeing guide says this? Either way, something does, so there is documentation showing it). Going via Leeds, from any station in Bradford is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

No one said there was a Forster Sq to New Pudsey ticket?

What people are saying though is that a Bradford Stations to New Pudsey ticket will have a number of "shortest routes" depending on which station in the Bradford Group you are departing from.

The shortest route from FS to New Pudsey is, as John@home has said, via Leeds.


The next bit of clarification are the booking engines. Ask for Bradford Forster Sq to New Pudsey, and it will only offer you a Bradford Stations ticket.
Try to put in Forster Sq to New Pudsey 'via Leeds', and it comes back with no available journeys.

NRES certainly brings back available journeys (as per the attachment below)...


At the end of the day, the major giveaway is the fact the ticket says Bradford Stations, and not Bradford Forster Sq. Its exactly like the London examples. They say London Terminals, and you have to go to whichever is on a valid route. York to London Terminals is not valid into Charing Cross. Bradford Stations to N Pudsey is not valid out of Forster Sq. Its not a valid route.
I'm sorry, but the situation is nothing like London Terminals.

London Terminals has a specific section of The Manual that details the specific rules and regulations that apply to it.

What your trying with London Terminals is pick an exception to the rule and apply that across the board.
 

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junglejames

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@junglejames:
I'm not wading into your extensive explanation other than to point out that as soon as origin and destination are found to have a routeing point in common you can forget fares checks or maps, you are down to shortest route, routes longer by no more than 3 miles and direct trains.

I was just showing why you couldnt use Leeds as the routeing point. Thats why i went into fares. Once i clarified that Leeds wasnt a valid routeing point, i then went onto shortest distance plus 3 miles.

Oh brilliant. Thankyou. Ive just worked out more proof, considering some dont believe me.

Right, Leeds is not a valid destination routeing point for Bradford Stations to New Pudsey, because Bradford Stations to New Pudsey is cheaper than Bradford Stations to Leeds. Do you all agree? Well its easy to see if you dont believe me.
Therefore as Leeds is not a valid routeing point, the routeing guide says (i read it somewhere) that no journey between Bradford Stations and New Pudsey is allowed to go through Leeds. Even if you use another destination routeing point to work out the valid routes, you have to discard any routes that take you through Leeds.

So, as long as the ticket says Bradford Stations, you have to avoid Leeds.


Will you all believe me now? I think with this latest bit of proof, there is no doubting it.
No, i dont suppose you will all believe me, but hey, what can I do. Ive given you all the proof you need, as well as plenty of clarification.
 

OwlMan

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I was just showing why you couldnt use Leeds as the routeing point. Thats why i went into fares. Once i clarified that Leeds wasnt a valid routeing point, i then went onto shortest distance plus 3 miles.

Oh brilliant. Thankyou. Ive just worked out more proof, considering some dont believe me.

Right, Leeds is not a valid destination routeing point for Bradford Stations to New Pudsey, because Bradford Stations to New Pudsey is cheaper than Bradford Stations to Leeds. Do you all agree? Well its easy to see if you dont believe me.
Therefore as Leeds is not a valid routeing point, the routeing guide says (i read it somewhere) that no journey between Bradford Stations and New Pudsey is allowed to go through Leeds. Even if you use another destination routeing point to work out the valid routes, you have to discard any routes that take you through Leeds.

So, as long as the ticket says Bradford Stations, you have to avoid Leeds.


Will you all believe me now? I think with this latest bit of proof, there is no doubting it.
No, i dont suppose you will all believe me, but hey, what can I do. Ive given you all the proof you need, as well as plenty of clarification.

But as they are associated to the same group you do not need to go into mapped routes, fares rules etc. Just the shortest route is permissable - and the NRG does not specify whether each station in a group can have its own shortest route.

Peter
 

junglejames

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But as they are associated to the same group you do not need to go into mapped routes, fares rules etc. Just the shortest route is permissable - and the NRG does not specify whether each station in a group can have its own shortest route.

Peter

But once you have discounted 1 routeing point, you are not allowed to go via that station on your journey. Thats what im saying. We have discounted Leeds routeing point, and well and truely discounted it by using the fares rule, so no journey from Bradford Stations to New Pudsey is allowed to go through it.

As far as whether each station is allowed is shortest journey, no. Its the shortest journey between routeing points.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To you. But you have chosen not to tell us precisely what you asked him and not to tell us precisely what he replied.

I have seen no evidence that station groups limit permitted routes from individual stations within the group. The National Routeing Guide states that "Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities." (Instructions, page 6)
I have written to you elsewhere pointing out that:



That is inaccurate. See the Watford Junction - Harpenden route St Albans Abbey example in post #6.

My calculations in post #6 show that it is a Permitted Route.

Right. In response to a couple of points. Regarding no walking once on the journey, i apologise, i was obviously wrong. I shouldnt have brought that into the argument at all. It has no bearing on it.

As for your calculations in post 6. No you havent showed its a permitted route. All you have done is assume that you are allowed to use whatever station you want within the Bradford Stations group.

Oh, and in response to your first point. Do you think im trying to pull the wool over your eyes? No i havent provided exact transcripts of the emails, but i asked him the relevant questiuons and got the relevant answers. I am intelligent enough to know what these are. Anyway, the most relevant answer was very clear. Its not valid via Forster Sq. Whether you believe it or not is anothger matter, but i dont need to provide transcripts of the emails, as his answer was very clear, and i gave you that.
 
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OwlMan

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But once you have discounted 1 routeing point, you are not allowed to go via that station on your journey. Thats what im saying. We have discounted Leeds routeing point, and well and truely discounted it by using the fares rule, so no journey from Bradford Stations to New Pudsey is allowed to go through it.

As far as whether each station is allowed is shortest journey, no. Its the shortest journey between routeing points.



HOW TO DETERMINE PERMITTED ROUTES
Where the timetable offers journey opportunities over a longer route which is
not covered by a through train service, the alternative options are included in
the Routeing Guide. This may offer the customer a choice of routes for the
same overall journey. If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the
journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to
choose any of the routes listed in the Guide. Where the fare specifies a
particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which
pass through the station shown in the route description. The Routeing Guide
may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route
description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used
for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.
To identify a permitted route the basic steps outlined below should always be
followed:
For all local journeys throughout most of the country the user should follow
the first three steps (Steps 1-3), which will identify the permitted route.

However, for longer distance journeys, where the origin and destination have
no common routeing point, stages 4 - 7 will need to be followed.

The underlined part of the NRG above refers - you do not go past stage 3 and therfore do not get as far as fare rules, maps etc

Peter
 

hairyhandedfool

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I think this thread is going nowhere fast. The Routeing Guide instructions state that where the origin and destination share a common Routeing Point it only allows direct trains and the shortest route from origin to destination. Routeing Point Groups are irrelevant.

The only direct trains go from Bradford Interchange.

The shortest route from Bradford Stns to New Pudsey is via Bradford Interchange.

The examples on page one of this thread show that the journey planners can be wrong. The software is only as good as the bloke who wrote it.
 

junglejames

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The underlined part of the NRG above refers - you do not go past stage 3 and therfore do not get as far as fare rules, maps etc

Peter

Well ok, i will take back my bit about having to avoid Leeds. The RG has shot itself in the foot and made a bit of evidence void with the word 'Should'.

So we are back to the beginning. What does 'Stations' mean? Does it mean 'choose whichever one you like' or does it just mean 'The station leaving you on a valid route.

Somebody here agrees with me that it means 'The station that leaves you on a valid route', but then still wants to head over to Forster Sq.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think this thread is going nowhere fast. The Routeing Guide instructions state that where the origin and destination share a common Routeing Point it only allows direct trains and the shortest route from origin to destination. Routeing Point Groups are irrelevant.

The only direct trains go from Bradford Interchange.

The shortest route from Bradford Stns to New Pudsey is via Bradford Interchange.

The examples on page one of this thread show that the journey planners can be wrong. The software is only as good as the bloke who wrote it.

But some people seem to think 'Bradford Stations' means they can choose whatever station they like, and then pick the shortest journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Regarding the grouping of stations like we have at Bradford, the routeing guide states that the extended availability (mentioned elsewhere on this thread) that this is designed for, is not available if the group is either the departure or arrival station. Therefore seeming to dispel the idea that you can use any of the stations you want. Therefore you must use the shortest route from the city, which is from Interchange.

Admittedly the routeing guide does not say this in black and white, but everything is pointing at this.

Also regarding the rule that says for local journeys you should follow the first 3 steps. The dictionary says 'should' can also mean a likelihood. Therefore it isnt banning you from using the fares stage. So taking this meaning literally, i can use the fares stage to prove Leeds is not allowed.
 

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Also regarding the rule that says for local journeys you should follow the first 3 steps. The dictionary says 'should' can also mean a likelihood. Therefore it isnt banning you from using the fares stage. So taking this meaning literally, i can use the fares stage to prove Leeds is not allowed.

Sorry James, I still disagree with this bit (although I agree with the rest of what you're saying) - in the context of instructions, 'should' and 'must' are basically interchangeable IMO :)
 

junglejames

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Sorry James, I still disagree with this bit (although I agree with the rest of what you're saying) - in the context of instructions, 'should' and 'must' are basically interchangeable IMO :)

But thats not what the dictionary says.
 

clagmonster

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But there is nowhere that says that you must walk between stations and the shortest distance can be taken to mean by train only.

Peter
Where is it documented that "the shortest distance can be taken to mean by train only"? The Routeing Guide does state that distances should be calculated using the National Rail Timetable, but then inter-station walking distances are included in said document, as well as distances if travelling by train.

glynn80 said:
The shortest route from FS to New Pudsey is, as John@home has said, via Leeds.
It is my belief that the shortest route is by walking to Interchange (0.5 miles), then by train to New Pudsey (3.25 miles), giving a total of 3.75 miles as opposed to 20.25 miles via Leeds. If someone provides a link to demonstrate that routes involving a walk should be discounted when calculating the shortest distance, this view may change.

glynn80 said:
NRES certainly brings back available journeys (as per the attachment below)
I think looking at online journey planners think is a bit of a red herring, as we can't see their working. There are many cases where journey planners are wrong, and this must be one either way as WebTis disagrees with the Trainline and NRES.
 

yorkie

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It sounds like this Barry Doe person is regarded as some sort of Deity around here.
I'm sure many people here have a lot of respect for Barry Doe, but when it comes to the Routeing Guide, while he is no doubt one of the people I do consider an expert, I would consider the collective knowledge of Glynn80, collybs and John @ Home to be totally unrivalled. Even ATOC lack sufficient knowledge, as apparently their expert left the organisation a year or two ago. All any of us can do, including Barry Doe, is to interpret the rules and make sense of them.

It is true that ATOC have consulted Barry Doe (to some extent) on certain issues, and it does appear that they give him a lot of information/access. However I am sure I read in one of his articles in Rail magazine about a year ago that he was getting a bit fed up with them (and WSMR, I recall). If there is someone here with a collection of Rail magazine they may be able to find it. I would consider anything Barry Doe says to be a valued opinion, but if that opinion differs to people like John @ Home or Glynn80 then it would seem that the issue is not a straightforward one and 'Barry Doe says...' does not in any way render the opinions of experts here to be incorrect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There are many cases where journey planners are wrong, and this must be one either way as WebTis disagrees with the Trainline and NRES.
Let's clarify a bit.

All the journey planners can do is abide by the 'rules' they are given.

What happens is the programmers will be asking ATOC for the rules so they can program these rules into their software.

Is it made clear in the NRCoC, the RG, the restriction codes, which rule trumps which rule? No, it is not! Is it made clear what order the rules should apply in? No, it is not!

Therefore it is of no surprise to me whatsoever that each program has it's own interpretation (and indeed that many members here have their own interpretation!).

Does this make some of them "wrong?" The answer has to be "Yes, but...." and there's a big but, as who determines which is wrong, and why?
 

clagmonster

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I think that is very well put, Yorkie. There are many issues on which people disagree with their interpretations of the routeing guide, such as this one, but that does not mean that I have any less respect for people I happen to agree or disagree with. The routeing guide is a complicated beast, and there is not always a straightforward answer (or indeed a difinitive one).
 
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