Drunk train driver

strange6 · 23 Apr 2011

E&W Lucas said:
There really is zero tolerance of alcohol and drugs in the industry, and I feel sorry that the OP felt it necessary to highlight the issue in this way. The case is so rare as to make it newsworthy, it was some time ago, and the individual was not only sacked, but also jailed. That really does go to show that the railway does not mess about with alcohol.

As a fare paying passenger, and as I'm relatively new with regard to the 'ins and outs' of the rail industry, I felt that it I was justified in enquiring about such matters by using that case as an example. Afterall, that is one of the purposes of these forums. I'm sorry you took my posting the wrong way, Mr Lucas, but please try and remember that not all of us work on the railways and we certainly do not have the experience and knowledge of it that you and others have. So please do try and have a bit more patience with us in the future

Ta

RailUK Forums

seagull · 23 Apr 2011

For car drivers (and bus, lorry presumably) the UK legal limit is 80mg alcohol per 100ml of blood.

For train drivers (and any railway safety critical staff) the limit is, I believe, 29mg alcohol per 100ml of blood.

So the limit is significantly lower and the rules of thumb pertaining to driving your car after x amount of drink don't apply. I can see why therefore the best policy would be to avoid any drink at all within 12 hours of starting work time.

networkrail1 · 23 Apr 2011

Hi everyone.

I do feel sorry for the driver involved but as E&W Lucas has said the industry has a zero tolerance on drink and drugs, lucky for me though i don't drink and the only drugs i use is smoking tobacco (bad habit i know i always say to people don't start i regret starting it).

Anyway back on topic, now please ignore me if i have read it wrong and please correct me if i have all my facts wrong but from what i have read the driver actually brought the whisky bottle to work with him, and was drinking all shift while he was driving.

Now seeing as he would of known about the zero tolerance rules this makes me think why did he do it ,at the end of the day we don't know what his home life was like, did his wife leave him that morning with his kids, did a member of his family really close to him pass away, at the end of the day we don't know.

i am not standing up for the driver but it does seem strange that he one day turns up to work and buys a bottle of whisky and then drinks it while he is on shift.

We can say put more saftey precautions in place but whats to say that something like this happens to a non drinker who has a clean service history with a TOC/FOC and one day his life crumbles around him and he gets himself drunk to drown his sorrows (i have been at the lowest of the low so i know how that feels and the last thing on your mind is people around you and saftey).

At the end of the day i am only speculating because we do not and never will know all the facts but there must have been something wrong in the drivers life to cause him to drink at work.

To those people on here who want everything to be done with red tape this world is getting more and more like it everyday, i cannot go on track now without filling in at least 20 different forms and that's just for 5 Min's work.

We can always say oh well more saftey has to be involved, we can and never rule out incidents like this or any other not unless we bubble wrap everyone and everything.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone on here but please be considerate me and my fellow rail staff have a lot to deal with in today's world and we can never get it 100% right, as i have said we do not know what in the drivers life caused him to do this but something must have happened we do not know all the facts and on the other hand they were right to convict him of the offence.

Right that is my rant over now so please pick apart my post as you will and argue with me but i will always stand by my points its a hard world out there now.

All the best.

Simon

strange6 · 23 Apr 2011

networkrail1 said:
Hi everyone.

I do feel sorry for the driver involved but as E&W Lucas has said the industry has a zero tolerance on drink and drugs, lucky for me though i don't drink and the only drugs i use is smoking tobacco (bad habit i know i always say to people don't start i regret starting it).

Anyway back on topic, now please ignore me if i have read it wrong and please correct me if i have all my facts wrong but from what i have read the driver actually brought the whisky bottle to work with him, and was drinking all shift while he was driving.

Now seeing as he would of known about the zero tolerance rules this makes me think why did he do it ,at the end of the day we don't know what his home life was like, did his wife leave him that morning with his kids, did a member of his family really close to him pass away, at the end of the day we don't know.

i am not standing up for the driver but it does seem strange that he one day turns up to work and buys a bottle of whisky and then drinks it while he is on shift.

We can say put more saftey precautions in place but whats to say that something like this happens to a non drinker who has a clean service history with a TOC/FOC and one day his life crumbles around him and he gets himself drunk to drown his sorrows (i have been at the lowest of the low so i know how that feels and the last thing on your mind is people around you and saftey).

At the end of the day i am only speculating because we do not and never will know all the facts but there must have been something wrong in the drivers life to cause him to drink at work.

To those people on here who want everything to be done with red tape this world is getting more and more like it everyday, i cannot go on track now without filling in at least 20 different forms and that's just for 5 Min's work.

We can always say oh well more saftey has to be involved, we can and never rule out incidents like this or any other not unless we bubble wrap everyone and everything.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone on here but please be considerate me and my fellow rail staff have a lot to deal with in today's world and we can never get it 100% right, as i have said we do not know what in the drivers life caused him to do this but something must have happened we do not know all the facts and on the other hand they were right to convict him of the offence.

Right that is my rant over now so please pick apart my post as you will and argue with me but i will always stand by my points its a hard world out there now.

All the best.

Simon

My intention was never to have a go at railway staff; if you look at my previous postings, I have always had nothing but good to say about them from my own personal experience. Indeed, we have one of the safest railways in the world in terms of accidents and fatalities and that's all down to the people who run it, day-in and day-out! I just raised this example with a view of getting a discussion about the subject matter in question. I know this chap was a rarity but the judge did make comments about the effectiveness of staff monitoring and I only wanted to know if this had been improved over the last couple of years. If the vast majority of railway staff are anything like as professional as people like GB, driver9000, flamingo, RPM, hydro etc then I can sleep easy at night knowing I'll be safe on my journey to work tomorrow

CarterUSM · 23 Apr 2011

I believe the driver concerned had a few personal problems, though has unfortunately ended up with many more in the aftermath. There are procedures and guidelines for welfare of staff with personal problems including abuse of drugs/alcohol, and the fella concerned could have taken advantage of these though for whatever reason, chose not to. A real waste of a career, relationships, and indeed ones life. Extremely sad case.

313103 · 23 Apr 2011

Why is this topic even being discussed? I remember this story from last year and the same conclusions came out of it! At least if we had new material to discuss i would have my twopence hapenny worth.

strange6 · 23 Apr 2011

313103 said:
Why is this topic even being discussed? I remember this story from last year and the same conclusions came out of it! At least if we had new material to discuss i would have my twopence hapenny worth.

Not all of us as been around that long, mate. This is what I mean about having some patience with us relative newbies!

djw1981 · 23 Apr 2011

The issue with saying 12hrs ius that even then if it was a big 'session' you may be over the limit, but also very tired and not at full mental faculties.

networkrail1 · 23 Apr 2011

strange6 said:
My intention was never to have a go at railway staff; if you look at my previous postings, I have always had nothing but good to say about them from my own personal experience. Indeed, we have one of the safest railways in the world in terms of accidents and fatalities and that's all down to the people who run it, day-in and day-out! I just raised this example with a view of getting a discussion about the subject matter in question. I know this chap was a rarity but the judge did make comments about the effectiveness of staff monitoring and I only wanted to know if this had been improved over the last couple of years. If the vast majority of railway staff are anything like as professional as people like GB, driver9000, flamingo, RPM, hydro etc then I can sleep easy at night knowing I'll be safe on my journey to work tomorrow

As i have stated in my post, i am not pointing the finger at anyone this includes you.

I understand that you do not work for the railway and are interested in how it works, i used to be exactly the same, some people will put you down and call you a 'staff basher' just ignore them and the real answers will come from those members of rail staff who understand where you are coming from.

All the best.

Simon

Xenophon PCDGS · 24 Apr 2011

TimSYoung40145 said:
E & W Lucas, I am just a Railway Enthusiast who travels on many Charter Trains, have no involvement with the industry. I normally expect any Driver to put the safety of himself & others first, this is always the majority, but I expect there are some problems.

That's why I was asking if all operators had a system to minimise such incidents from occurring.

I have nothing against Drivers as long as they are honest & safe in their work.

The same applies to airline pilots, who are more likely to kill countless passengers than train drivers...there have been quite a few reports over the last few years of airline pilots reporting for work with drink in their systems.

Coach and bus drivers who are passenger carriers also come into this category of reporting for work with alcohol in their system that will cause misjudgement of driving ability

Whistler40145 · 24 Apr 2011

I have a family friend who is a 2nd Officer with BA & he cannot touch alcohol for 24 hours before going on duty.

Rugd1022 · 24 Apr 2011

seagull said:
For car drivers (and bus, lorry presumably) the UK legal limit is 80mg alcohol per 100ml of blood.

For train drivers (and any railway safety critical staff) the limit is, I believe, 29mg alcohol per 100ml of blood.

So the limit is significantly lower and the rules of thumb pertaining to driving your car after x amount of drink don't apply. I can see why therefore the best policy would be to avoid any drink at all within 12 hours of starting work time.

Morning Seagull,

Are you sure those figures are right? I'm sure I was told a while back that the limit for us train drivers was as low as 13mg per 100ml!

Either way, I'm very careful when it comes to my drinking habits, luckily I'm annual leave till a week on Tuesday, but shan't have a drink at least two days before that. I've not been random tested for some time, but when I was still with EWS the entire depot was done in the same week, some of us more than once, as there had been a derailment on the Up Goods at Rugby that particular week.

ralphchadkirk · 24 Apr 2011

Rugd1022 said:
Are you sure those figures are right? I'm sure I was told a while back that the limit for us train drivers was as low as 13mg per 100ml!

In breath, yes, but blood and urine are different.

AFAIK no more than:
29 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood
13 micrograms of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath
39 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of urine

Rugd1022 · 24 Apr 2011

ralphchadkirk said:
In breath, yes, but blood and urine are different.

AFAIK no more than:
29 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood
13 micrograms of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath
39 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of urine

Cheers Ralph... thanks for clearing that up

Geezertronic · 24 Apr 2011

ralphchadkirk said:
In breath, yes, but blood and urine are different.

AFAIK no more than:
29 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood
13 micrograms of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath
39 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of urine

And for comparison, the figures for the drink drive limit in the UK:

35 micrograms of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath; or
80 milligrams of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood; or
107 milligrams of alcohol per 100 millilitres of urine

(Source: http://www.drinkdrivinglaw.co.uk/drink_driving_limit.htm)

TDK · 24 Apr 2011

This driver must have had problems and was most likely alchol dependant, if only he had approached his line mamager he would hve been given help, however he knew the rules and I am personally discusted with his behaviour and in my opinion does not deserve any job let alone a job on the railway - there isn't a time limit for consuming alcohol before booking on however I personally do not drink 24 hours before booking on and this is on the safe side I have been random tested for alcohol 3 times in 3 years and have always blown zero and all the ocassions I have been randomly tested have been before 5am in the morning.

Whistler40145 · 24 Apr 2011

TDK, does sound like he had a problem.

DarloRich · 24 Apr 2011

It sounds like the poor guy had something of a problem. "Normal" people dont buy a bottle of whiskey and drink it on the way to work.

In my former life i have seen the effects alcoholism can have on a person and thier career. It is not nice to see people fall apart becuase of drink. I have seen people loose everything, and i mean everything, becuase of the drink. The problem is that you can have all the welfare systems you like in place, but if a person cant or wont admit to the problem they wont seek the help they need.

I know that where i work the random testers could turn up at any time even though i am in a non saftey critical role and sit in an office all day. There is a zero tolerance approach in the rail industry (as there is in many/most industries) to drink and drugs. I also know that our saftey critical staff have what a is called an "8 hour bottle to throtle rule"

westcoaster · 24 Apr 2011

The chap does sound like he had issues outside of work, and it's easy to judge, now I do not condone what he did, at our company it's recommended no drinking 12 hours before your shift, if your caught and then say you have a problem your out on your ear, but if you go to them they will help you out ( obviously no driving).

Smudger105e · 24 Apr 2011

A few years back I was randomly screened at my place of work (the testers turned up and several members of staff were tested). The next month I was involved in an incident, and was screened again as part of the investigation. The next month I got a letter telling me to attend the BUPA Medical Centre for a random screening! When I told them I had been tested twice in the last two months, the response was "random is random, and how do we know you haven't decided to take some substance, assuming you won't be tested again any time soon."

And I undertand that view of things, and went for my third screening in three months!

Minilad · 25 Apr 2011

I have been driving since 2001 and have never been tested, random or otherwise. But I don't really drink so am never really in fear of a test.
There is still a drinking culture on the railways but I think people are a lot more aware of the consequences now. Remember it's not that long ago that drinking on duty was not the pariah it is now and a lot of the old boys will tell unbelievable stories about what went on.

Smudger105e · 25 Apr 2011

XCDriver said:
There is still a drinking culture on the railways

This is not my experience, and although it used to be more acceptable when I started (1976) I would argue that certainly amongst my colleagues there is no 'drinking culture'.

driver9000 · 25 Apr 2011

Loco Fitter said:
This is not my experience, and although it used to be more acceptable when I started (1976) I would argue that certainly amongst my colleagues there is no 'drinking culture'.

Agree. While it was once prevalent (there was even a bar under Euston for the use of on duty staff) it certainly isn't the case anymore. Well, not around here anyway....

bus man · 26 Apr 2011

In some respects the sheriffs coments are odd as surely the manager stopping him taking the train out and getting the police involved can be seen as monitoring.

It will be very difficult to stop someone drinking on duty as drivers are by there nature in an enclosed space where people dont see them.

Hopefully this is an isolated incident as it appears to be .

185 · 26 Apr 2011

Sadly not isolated. I know at least 3 drivers and 3 guards booted through drink.

The winner has to an RRNE trolley steward who during the grand reopening of Darlington station in 1997ish all the railway top brass were wandering around the station and there he was, in the station bar asleep on a stool with five empty pint glasses and his drinks trolley parked next to him - Legend!

notadriver · 26 Apr 2011

bus man said:
In some respects the sheriffs coments are odd as surely the manager stopping him taking the train out and getting the police involved can be seen as monitoring.

It will be very difficult to stop someone drinking on duty as drivers are by there nature in an enclosed space where people dont see them.

Hopefully this is an isolated incident as it appears to be .

I think it is quite isolated. Drivers are trusted to work alone and unattended for long periods of time. Drivers of road vehicles are in a sense monitored by passengers (buses) and drivers of other vehicles!

Minilad · 26 Apr 2011

driver9000 said:
Agree. While it was once prevalent (there was even a bar under Euston for the use of on duty staff) it certainly isn't the case anymore. Well, not around here anyway....

Maybe I need to clarify my comment. I don't mean a drinking culture at work but a lot of men will still go to the pub after a shift. Meetings are usually held in licenced premises and days out as a group often involve a pub at some stage

Wyvern · 26 Apr 2011

XCDriver said:
Maybe I need to clarify my comment. I don't mean a drinking culture at work but a lot of men will still go to the pub after a shift. Meetings are usually held in licenced premises and days out as a group often involve a pub at some stage

That is not restricted to railway people. At one time, in the computer industry, I was expected to go to the pub with the others after work where the day's business was discussed.

Geezertronic · 26 Apr 2011

Wyvern said:
At one time, in the computer industry, I was expected to go to the pub with the others after work where the day's business was discussed.

I would agree with that. My colleagues and I would even go down to the pub of a lunchtime, sink 3-4 pints in our allocated hour (mixed in with a game of pool or two), and return back quite merry because we had not eaten with it (I am talking before Y2k here)

Yew · 26 Apr 2011

142094 said:
Driving, be it on a road or train driving, should have a standard limit across the board - 0. It is quite hard to know how many units you are drinking, when to stop and when you are also fit again after having a drink. At least if you don't have a drink, then you know you'll not be over the limit.

I beleive the main reason for the current limit, is to allow for residual alcohol, after all, who knows when they are below the limit after drinking. It would be hard to work out without some science

Drunk train driver

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