Lightning damageing equipment

wintonian · 23 Apr 2011

I see the 19:34 Readhill to Reading service has been delayed by lightning having damaged equipment. Are they pulling a fast one (the weather is great in Reading) or what my have have been damaged.

Off topic;
Since when has FGW had free WiFi at Reading - I'm using it now.

RailUK Forums

Darandio · 23 Apr 2011

Lightning can happen one mile from the next. I left home earlier to pick up my partner and kids 2 miles away, came out of the door to hailstones like marbles, torrential rain and lightning flashing, I was soaked while running for the car.

Drove up the road and after a mile or so, no rain, just blackness in the rear view mirror. Arrived there, they had heard the thunder but there had been hardly any rain and wondered why I was wet!

driver9000 · 23 Apr 2011

I've been caught up in this kind of failure before. The signal box was struck by lighting knocking out the power to the relay room reverting the signal I was looking at to danger in front of me!

strange6 · 23 Apr 2011

wintonian said:
I see the 19:34 Readhill to Reading service has been delayed by lightning having damaged equipment. Are they pulling a fast one (the weather is great in Reading) or what my have have been damaged.

I can't see this has a reasonable excuse. trains, like cars, are a good example of what we call a 'Faraday cage' in that the exterior protects the interior from the electrical charge by distributing that charge around the exterior and into earth. Cars and trains are the perfect protection in an electrical storm

Having said that, if installations like signalling equipment are not suitably protected, then a scenario like what driver9000 describes is perfectly possible

driver9000 · 23 Apr 2011

It's more likely to be infrastructure damaged rather than the train which is probably the victim of bad luck to be caught up in it.

strange6 · 23 Apr 2011

driver9000 said:
It's more likely to be infrastructure damaged rather than the train which is probably the victim of bad luck to be caught up in it.

Yup. Wouldn't cost much to protect that infrastructure you mention by simple installation of lightening rods

TGV · 23 Apr 2011

If the pantograph is hit directly it isn't usually too amused. I've seen some pretty spectacular damage done that way. Main breaker saves things but usually by giving the ultimate sacrifice.

Matt Taylor · 23 Apr 2011

There have been significant thunderstorms in SW London and Surrey this evening, Guildford took a direct hit which has caused electrical/signal problems.

DaveNewcastle · 23 Apr 2011

strange6 said:
I can't see this has a reasonable excuse.
. . . .
Wouldn't cost much to protect that infrastructure you mention by simple installation of lightening rods

No.
No.
and No.

I'm not going to post an explanation on here, but any plain-English summary will refer to the ability of extreme voltages to jump through extraordinarily good insulators, for the conductive path of lightning to find multiple paths (each with their own voltage differentials) and to the devastating impact of a mere millionth of the voltage differential during a lightening strike on any user's cable-borne data signal.

I assure you, that there are hundreds (probably thousands) of professionals working globally to enhance the imunity of systems to lightening, and even within the UK there are those dedicated to lightning detection, prediction and aversion strategies which cost the National Grid and others hundreds of thousands of GBP annually. I assure you, if they could do better, then they would. An uninformed internet poster suggestion a 'simple installation of lightening rods' is proposing something that might have been thoughly examined, quantified, evaluated and analysed long before now.
Long long before now.
But its always nice to hear from newbies!

Bald Rick · 23 Apr 2011

Lightning can do some serious damage to signalling equipment even if the strike itself is several tens of metres away. There is some research on the subject, basically the voltage reduces as it dissipates from the strike point, however when you start with a million volts+ there's still plenty to go round a fair distance away.

Added to this is the amount of metal on the railway (rails, OLE, cables) that can help the lightning find signalling equipment. This means a strike close to the tracks can knock out signalling a mile away or more. So basically lightning rods would be no use at all.

Lightning can also knock out signallers - one siggy in a manual box in Norfolk got a shock, literally, when lightning struck close to some point rodding at exactly the time he was pulling a lever. One very unlucky, and lucky, man.

strange6 · 23 Apr 2011

DaveNewcastle said:
No.
No.
and No.

I'm not going to post an explanation on here, but any plain-English summary will refer to the ability of extreme voltages to jump through extraordinarily good insulators, for the conductive path of lightning to find multiple paths (each with their own voltage differentials) and to the devastating impact of a mere millionth of the voltage differential during a lightening strike on any user's cable-borne data signal.

I assure you, that there are hundreds (probably thousands) of professionals workin globally to enhance the imunity of systems to lightening, and even within the UK there are those dedicated to lightning detection, prediction and aversion strategies which cost the National Grid and others hundreds of thousands of GBP annually. I assure you, if they could do better, then they would. An uninformed internet poster suggestion a 'simple installation of lightening rods' is propsing something that might have been thoughly examined, quantified, evaluated and analysed lomg before now.

lol That's quite a response to a very brief posting that I made on the subject. I'm glad you know me sufficiently enough to refer to me as an 'uninformed internet poster'. I didn't for one moment suggest that the installation of lightening rods would cure the possibility of lightening strikes knocking out signalling equipment. But, seeing that you're an authority on the subject, I will bow to your superior knowledge!

moonrakerz · 23 Apr 2011

strange6 said:
Yup. Wouldn't cost much to protect that infrastructure you mention by simple installation of lightening rods

Yup - that would take a weight off their minds ! :roll:

westcoaster · 23 Apr 2011

Was out in south London and Surrey this afternoon and the weather was changeable to say the least, thunder, lightening, monsoon type rain, small shower, rainbows you name it I saw it, mind you it was very slippy on the iron road, felt like autumn driving trains today.

wintonian · 23 Apr 2011

I havn't seen a cloud all day from home to Reading, Oxford and Leamingtom Spa, so obviously staid in the right place.

DaveNewcastle · 23 Apr 2011

strange6 said:
That's quite a response to a very brief posting that I made on the subject.
. . . .
But, seeing that you're an authority on the subject, I will bow to your superior knowledge!

I will apologise now. My post does appear to be quite arrogant which was not my intention.
I did, however, mean to draw your attention to a body of professional work which operates around the clock in the UK, at our expense (as consumers), wholly dedicated to this subject, and I have had some professional responsibilities, albeit 20+ or more years ago, in the power industry. All I meant to add to the thread was that it is my opinion that there are many people evaluation lightning impacts day-in day-out, advising authorities of potential preventative isolations and quantifying the impact. That's their job - every day of the week.
Its not for me to belittle another poster on here, but the contrast between a posting by a professional and a posting by an interested member of the public might assist others when they subsequently read the information on here.

strange6 · 23 Apr 2011

DaveNewcastle said:
I will apologise now. My post does appear to be quite arrogant which was not my intention.
I did, however, mean to draw your attention to a body of professional work which operates around the clock in the UK, at our expense (as consumers), wholly dedicated to this subject, and I have had some professional involvement, albeit 20 or more years ago, in the power industry. All I meant to add to the thread was that it is my opinion that there are many people evaluation lightning impacts day-in day-out, advising authorities of potential preventative isolations and quantifying the impact. That's their job - every day of the week.
Its not for me to belittle another poster on here, but the contrast between a posting by a professional and a posting by an interested member of the public might assist others when they subsequently read the information on here.

I know what you mean! Hence the smiley! I'm no railway expert and I'm the first to admit that; but I do know a little bit about physics, and science in general, hence I do appreciate what you say and I accept it 100 percent!

Cheers mate

djw1981 · 23 Apr 2011

You claim to know about physics and yet stated that a lightning rod would 'protect' (your word) signalling installations.

It has been explained that the lightning rod would not, and proved your statement to be wrong. Nothing can fully protect from lightning. Any system would at best be 99.9% effective. This may have been the 1 in 1000 etc strike which is either not possible, practicable or affordable to try any protect against.

strange6 · 23 Apr 2011

djw1981 said:
You claim to know about physics and yet stated that a lightning rod would 'protect' (your word) signalling installations.

It has been explained that the lightning rod would not, and proved your statement to be wrong. Nothing can fully protect from lightning. Any system would at best be 99.9% effective. This may have been the 1 in 1000 etc strike which is either not possible, practicable or affordable to try any protect against.

yes, I'm wrong and you're right. Thanks for the comment. Goodnight

Lightning damageing equipment

wintonian

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Darandio

Established Member

driver9000

Established Member

strange6

Established Member

driver9000

Established Member

strange6

Established Member

TGV

Member

Matt Taylor

Established Member

DaveNewcastle

Established Member

Bald Rick

Veteran Member

strange6

Established Member

moonrakerz

Member

westcoaster

Established Member

wintonian

Established Member

DaveNewcastle

Established Member

strange6

Established Member

djw1981

Established Member

strange6

Established Member