Switching off street lights overnight

Zoe · 2 Jun 2011

Recently they have decided to switch off all the street lights in residential areas here after midnight. In theory this is a great idea as it saves CO2 but there are some safety concerns and you have to remember to take a torch with you if you arrive back late and no-one else has lights on. Anyone else in an area where they have decided to do this?

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90019 · 2 Jun 2011

Surely that defeats the point of having the streetlights in the first place?

Dai. · 2 Jun 2011

90019 said:
Surely that defeats the point of having the streetlights in the first place?

It seems that way at first, but if you think about it logically, there isn't going to be many people on the streets after midnight, especially on a weekday, apart from the few who do late and night shifts and that's only going to be the odd person. So switching them off makes sense.

Striker · 2 Jun 2011

Maybe if we all drove around at 10mph it wouldn't be a problem?

Dai. · 2 Jun 2011

Striker said:
Maybe if we all drove around at 10mph it wouldn't be a problem?

Hopefully you drive with headlights so have no need for street lights! - You'll clearly see what's in stopping distance with headlights.

90019 · 2 Jun 2011

Striker said:
Maybe if we all drove around at 10mph it wouldn't be a problem?

And a man with a flag walking in front?

MidnightFlyer · 2 Jun 2011

They've turned off the lights overnight on the eastern half of the M65 up here since mid 2008, I don't know what kind of impact its had, I think it was a bit controversial when proposed though.

Drsatan · 2 Jun 2011

In Exeter the city council want to turn of all streetlights in residential areas after midnight ostensibly 'to reduce co2' emissions (otherwise known as saving money). This is of course going to make going home from the clubs and pubs in Exeter at around two or three in the morning a very dangerous business (especially if you're a woman). I wouldn't be at all surprised if when this happens, someone is raped, and the judge decides that the darkness caused by a lack of lighting was a contributory factor!

BlythPower · 2 Jun 2011

Dai. said:
It seems that way at first, but if you think about it logically, there isn't going to be many people on the streets after midnight, especially on a weekday, apart from the few who do late and night shifts and that's only going to be the odd person. So switching them off makes sense.

How odd is this person? I think I'd rather be able to see and avoid him!

TUC · 2 Jun 2011

Dai. said:
It seems that way at first, but if you think about it logically, there isn't going to be many people on the streets after midnight, especially on a weekday, apart from the few who do late and night shifts and that's only going to be the odd person. So switching them off makes sense.

But for those who are out and about it would be very dark-and dangerous-indeed. Have you ever tried walking on a remote country road at night? Its amazing just how dark it is and how impossible it is to see anything.

SS4 · 2 Jun 2011

Some things are more important than money - Leave the streetlights on.

This has nothing to do with CO2 emissions, it just happens to be a handy cover for cutting costs. How about they actually bother to get the street lamps working properly first - I've seen them one when it's been bright enough to wear sunglasses

Crimson_Quiff · 2 Jun 2011

Switching lights off overnight seems dangerous IMO. There are people out there that have evening/night jobs where they return home in the hours of darkness. Whether you are driving or not, it can be dangerous for both.

Peter Mugridge · 2 Jun 2011

Some of the statistics from the trial areas are quite surprising; I don't have the details to hand and I will try to get them before I post them ( this might take a few days as I'll have to contact someone I know who will have them ) but in no cases was there a rise in accidents and in all cases crime was down, in one case by as much as 30%.

In general what happens in these areas is that half the lights go off at either midnight or 01.00 and most of the rest an hour later; it's not a sudden plunge into darkness.

Yes, I have been out and about in the country in unlit areas.

There is one small town in Somerset which, a few years ago, had a vote amongst the local residents as to whether or not streetlamps should be introduced - the result was a landslide vote, with a high turnout, against streetlamps. The place remains unlit today. The main reasons for the residents rejecting the lights were that they would attract crime and also encourage drivers to go faster at night.

While on the subject of driving, in an unlit area when coming up to a junction you will have far more idea if a car is coming towards the junction from another direction on account of the glow from the headlamps; in a lit area you often have no idea if anyone else is approaching the junction until their car is actually at the junction.

Another thing to take into consideration is that streetlamps are known to seriously mess up the lives of nocturnal wildlife; there are countless scientific studies that demonstrate this.

SS4 · 2 Jun 2011

Peter Mugridge said:
Some of the statistics from the trial areas are quite surprising; I don't have the details to hand and I will try to get them before I post them ( this might take a few days as I'll have to contact someone I know who will have them ) but in no cases was there a rise in accidents and in all cases crime was down, in one case by as much as 30%.

Sounds interesting, I'd like to know the absolute difference rather than a percentage mainly because percentages fail when it comes to small numbers.

There is one small town in Somerset which, a few years ago, had a vote amongst the local residents as to whether or not streetlamps should be introduced - the result was a landslide vote, with a high turnout, against streetlamps. The place remains unlit today. The main reasons for the residents rejecting the lights were that they would attract crime and also encourage drivers to go faster at night.

I would have thought that amateur astronomy would have been a force behind wishing to retain dark skies.

While on the subject of driving, in an unlit area when coming up to a junction you will have far more idea if a car is coming towards the junction from another direction on account of the glow from the headlamps; in a lit area you often have no idea if anyone else is approaching the junction until their car is actually at the junction.

On the other hand sound travels further at night so you would hear the car equally well in the dark and in the light.

Peter Mugridge · 2 Jun 2011

SS4 - I will certainly try to get those statistics; I think they may be from the original half dozen trials in Essex about 5 or 6 years ago.

You're right, astronomers are very interested in this sort of thing, but I must stress that astronomers do not in fact campaign for a complete blackout; instead they mostly target their efforts at poorly designed and wasted light which spills upwards instead of going where it is actually needed. Have a look here for more on that: http://www.britastro.org/dark-skies/

At this point I should declare an interest in the subject as I am a bit of an astronomer myself. Scroll down to page 7 of 10 ( numbered page 337 ) on here: http://britastro.org/journal/pdf/120-6notes.pdf

Regarding the sound at night thing, I need a hearing person to answer this for me because I am deaf - how easy is it to distinguis another vehicle's engine from your own when approaching a junction at night?

justinsteam · 2 Jun 2011

90019 said:
And a man with a flag walking in front?

No thank you!

TUC said:
But for those who are out and about it would be very dark-and dangerous-indeed. Have you ever tried walking on a remote country road at night? Its amazing just how dark it is and how impossible it is to see anything.

I have actually walked along quite a few unlit roads at night, without a torch, usually when I have been to one pub or another, I don't find it to be that dark or impossible to see anything.

I can't think of any streetlights within a mile or 2 of my house, which is exactly how I like it!

I was born in Greater London and I couldn't wait to get away from street lights.

Crossover · 2 Jun 2011

I'm for street lighting being reduced, though not necessarily cut completely.

We had a power cut a few weeks ago that affected all our area including all the street lights in the area. Yes it was a bit dark but it was amazing how much you could see that is normally drowned out by light pollution. We were going to go for a walk in it but the power unfortunately came on not long after setting out of the house and our whole end of town lit up like a Christmas tree!

W-on-Sea · 2 Jun 2011

I think Maldon district in Essex has done this after midnight. Not really a high-crime area, and mostly rural. Would be interesting to see the stats

Peter Mugridge · 2 Jun 2011

justinsteam said:
No thank you!
I can't think of any streetlights within a mile or 2 of my house, which is exactly how I like it!

I'd agree with this; if you allow your eyes to become properly dark adapted ( which can take about 20 - 30 minutes for FULL adaption although a workable adaption will only take about 5 minutes ) then it really is never truly dark at night - even on a Moonless night in the deepest countryside.

You have to experience it to believe it.

bb21 · 2 Jun 2011

Peter Mugridge said:
how easy is it to distinguis another vehicle's engine from your own when approaching a junction at night?

Having a stab at it. I would say not very, especially in the middle of November.

BrummyBoy · 2 Jun 2011

Dont quote me on this but im sure new LED streetlights (at least i belive there LED) will reduce C02. Problem solved.

SS4 · 2 Jun 2011

Peter Mugridge said:
Regarding the sound at night thing, I need a hearing person to answer this for me because I am deaf - how easy is it to distinguis another vehicle's engine from your own when approaching a junction at night?

My apologies, I thought you were referring to pedestrians crossing at junctions rather than two cars.

Greenback · 2 Jun 2011

justinsteam said:
I have actually walked along quite a few unlit roads at night, without a torch, usually when I have been to one pub or another, I don't find it to be that dark or impossible to see anything.

I completely agree. I used to live in an unlit area and often walked home in darkness. Apart from a couple of alcohol induced trips in the gutter, I was fine!

justinsteam said:
I can't think of any streetlights within a mile or 2 of my house, which is exactly how I like it!

They put street lights in and the local inhabitants didn't want them, but it was deemed necessary for the benefit of new housing estates nearby.

I would also prefer to have no, or heavily reduced street lighting.

jon0844 · 3 Jun 2011

LED streetlights will surely mean you can keep lights on in towns and residential areas, with minimal power consumption. I accept that in some areas, more rural, people are used to it being dark as it always has been. Imagine people who are used to walking home late at night, suddenly expected to carry a torch or now be forced to take a cab as it's too dark (and dangerous) to walk through certain streets.

I've replaced nearly all our bulbs (regular fittings and MR16 Halogens) with LEDs and they're great - although the MR16 bulbs are a little dimmer that I'd like. The Philips LED bulbs, many dimmable too, are awesome. Better still, they now have warm white options so you don't get the horrid cold/blue light from earlier lamps.

Even if we had all the lights on in our house, we physically couldn't consume that much power even if we wanted to!

LEDs have advanced so much I am sure the maintenance for LED street lamps would be minimal, plus if you had solar panels you'd probably be able to run them almost exclusively without mains power.

The downside is they're expensive, and local councils seem to be investing in the latest generation of high pressure sodium bulbs that are probably not very energy efficient at all.

Nym · 3 Jun 2011

This is kind of counter to the latest campaining in the Bolton News to have streetlights installed on the M61 because of pepole being run over...

But really, street lights, the're there for a reason, the only place I can think of where it is safe to turn them off is on sections of plain motorway, like the M6 around preston, but at areas with higher traffic movments, such as junctions, they remain on.

And by the way, it's a page ago so can't really find it to quote.

Headlights don't show the idiots running into the road in dark clothing, they don't show pepole riding with no lights on their bike, they don't iluminate the footpaths as much as is nessesarry to drive in a safe manner.

jon0844 · 3 Jun 2011

With highly reflective signs and even solar powered cat's eyes and reflective road paint, I am not sure why you need street lights on motorways - except for tricky interchanges perhaps. That may also apply to many other major roads away from town.

And there are lights that have been tested (in addition to the solar powered cat's eyes which still exist partially on a bit of A414 around here - albeit the first generation ones that Herts County Council were trialling) that can turn on when it senses movement - so in effect, motorways could have LED lights that only light up when there's anyone using the road. And LEDs can happily turn on and off over and over without damage.

LED lights are also more directional, so would presumably cut down on light pollution too.

(As you can tell, I'm quite a fan of LED lighting. What a shame the railway is putting the worst examples of LED lights on some of its trains - like the stupidly dull, and horrid cold blue, lights on the EC HSTs).

Xenophon PCDGS · 3 Jun 2011

Nym said:
Headlights don't show the idiots running into the road in dark clothing, they don't show pepole riding with no lights on their bike, they don't iluminate the footpaths as much as is nessesarry to drive in a safe manner.

My wife really gets irate with cyclists who ride at night without any rear reflectors, down some of the unlit rural roads in parts of the Peak District. There are more of these than you think.

justinsteam · 4 Jun 2011

Paul Sidorczuk said:
cyclists who ride at night without any rear reflectors, down some of the unlit rural roads in parts of the Peak District. There are more of these than you think.

Silly fools.

Dai. · 5 Jun 2011

TUC said:
But for those who are out and about it would be very dark-and dangerous-indeed. Have you ever tried walking on a remote country road at night? Its amazing just how dark it is and how impossible it is to see anything.

Yes I have been down remote country roads at night but I always make sure I have a torch so I can see where I am going, as it's the sensible thing to do - after all it's up to you to look after yourself. If I came across a section where the street lights were broken or not working I'll be ready.

Aictos · 5 Jun 2011

Peterborough's done it for years except it's not just restricted to street lights where people walk but also to street lights on the various parkways and dual carriageways around Peterborough.

Some parts are lit up like the proverbial Christmas tree while some parts are dark like the pits of hell not that I know what the pits of hell are light but these parts are dark enough.

Indeed learning to drive and getting used to how the street lighting is then having to be directed around a area you've never used nor will use again in near darkness is a experience.

Switching off street lights overnight

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