Direct Open-access trains to popular European holiday destinations?

I was just wondering (purely speculating) whether there would be a market for direct trains from London St Pancras to, e.g. Barcelona, or some other popular holiday destination in Europe on an open-access basis. I think people may well go for it (I would definitely consider it). I've noticed that Eurostar's website contains other destinations in countries such as Germany and Switzerland, but Spain is noticeably absent from these destinations, despite the popularity or Spain as a holiday destination.

There has been recent open-access use of the Channel Tunnel into St Pancras by DB, so is there any likelihood of open access by some operator giving direct trains to popular holiday destinations beyond Paris and Brussels? Would this be feasible? (I think it would sell).

And also the possibility of open-access direct trains to the continent from destinations in the UK other than the ones on the line from St Pancras to the Tunnel (but this will be hampered by a lack of passport checks and a 'trainside' sealed security area at other stations).

The other destinations offered by Eurostar are easy to explain

As for Spain, don't think the AVE (High Speed, Standard Gauge) network is yet properly connected- I think cross-border trains into Spain may still need (expensive) gauge change stock, something RENFE have a fair bit of but that would require considerable investment for a prospective OA operator- on top of the already high investment you'd have to make in suitable high-speed stock (at least if you stick to just high-speed lines, you should be OK on just 25kV , 50Hz, overhead) with multiple signaling systems.

And I think you'd have to go high-speed- HS1 wouldn't be too keen on slower stock, and I think pan-European Open Access is only guaranteed for high speed services

I often wondered this. There is demand for coach trips to Spain afterall. So long as air travel is accessible we won't see "long-haul" rail travel though.

When Manchester - Milan or Sheffield - Istanbul via Leicester, become commercially viable, the skies will have become the arena of the rich.

Nonsense said:

So long as air travel is accessible we won't see "long-haul" rail travel though.

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Accessible air travel may not continue for long. Other forums I frequent are full of people stating that the cost of air travel has forced them to either not fly at all, or to heavily reduce the amont of journeys they make.

Greenback said:

Accessible air travel may not continue for long. Other forums I frequent are full of people stating that the cost of air travel has forced them to either not fly at all, or to heavily reduce the amont of journeys they make.

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Which I find rather strange (I have heard the same thing too!) as flying short-haul in Europe is still substantially cheaper than it was pre-budget airline days (just 15 years ago), even with all taxes/levies/surcharges/scams. The national air carriers had monopolies or duopolies on routes, the cost of a Dublin-London flight was extortionate compared to today with just BA and Aer Lingus. Nowadays, the likes of Ryanair have forced all fares down (even with fees and whatever).

WestCoast said:

Which I find rather strange (I have heard the same thing too!) as flying short-haul in Europe is still substantially cheaper than it was pre-budget airline days (just 15 years ago), even with all taxes/levies/surcharges/scams.

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It's also generally significantly cheaper than long-distance train travel, too, with a few exceptions (the €49 London - Germany DB fares, for example).

Greenback said:

Accessible air travel may not continue for long. Other forums I frequent are full of people stating that the cost of air travel has forced them to either not fly at all, or to heavily reduce the amount of journeys they make.

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So much depends on the price of liquid fuel.
Presently, worldwide, fuel is 30% of airlines' costs. It was just 13% ten years ago.
(Source http://www.aviationnews.us/articles.php?art_id=14081 )
The system has much less slack which means much less resilience to overcome even minor catastrophes. This is a worldwide problem in many fields.

Airlines are managing for now because much fuel is hedged at 2010 prices which is about 15% below today's spot price. Tomorrow is another day.

So much depends on the price of liquid fuel. No-one truly knows where it is headed, there are so many variables.

Is there any prospect of direct, say Birmingham-Paris or Manchester-Paris services, either by Eurostar or separate OA operator? I suppose the major obstacle there would be the lack of a security-sealed area at stations such as Birmingham New Street.

WestCoast said:

Which I find rather strange (I have heard the same thing too!) as flying short-haul in Europe is still substantially cheaper than it was pre-budget airline days (just 15 years ago), even with all taxes/levies/surcharges/scams. The national air carriers had monopolies or duopolies on routes, the cost of a Dublin-London flight was extortionate compared to today with just BA and Aer Lingus. Nowadays, the likes of Ryanair have forced all fares down (even with fees and whatever).

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That is true, but the cheap fares are no longer as cheap as they were, and when you add on the cost of the extras, many optional travellers are just not going by air as much as they used to. More people are staying in the UK, and there seem to far fewer weekend getaways for stag and hen parties, for example.

Holly said:

So much depends on the price of liquid fuel.
Presently, worldwide, fuel is 30% of airlines' costs. It was just 13% ten years ago.
(Source http://www.aviationnews.us/articles.php?art_id=14081 )
The system has much less slack which means much less resilience to overcome even minor catastrophes. This is a worldwide problem in many fields.

Airlines are managing for now because much fuel is hedged at 2010 prices which is about 15% below today's spot price. Tomorrow is another day.

So much depends on the price of liquid fuel. No-one truly knows where it is headed, there are so many variables.

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Yes, people realise that the high cost of fuel is to blame, just look at the bill when you fill up your car! I just don;tthink the cost of liquid fuel is going to fall, it will continue on an upward curve.

JoeGJ1984 said:

Is there any prospect of direct, say Birmingham-Paris or Manchester-Paris services, either by Eurostar or separate OA operator? I suppose the major obstacle there would be the lack of a security-sealed area at stations such as Birmingham New Street.

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Maybe in a couple of years it will be more viable to run such services. I have a feeling that there is going to be less travel to Europe generally, but that rail is going to have a bigger share of a shrinking market. I look forward to a revival of the sea crossing between Newcastle and Norway as well.

Greenback said:

That is true, but the cheap fares are no longer as cheap as they were, and when you add on the cost of the extras, many optional travellers are just not going by air as much as they used to. More people are staying in the UK, and there seem to far fewer weekend getaways for stag and hen parties, for example.

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I agree, people simply won't (be able to) travel as rail will never offer reasonable prices even against the more upwardly mobile easyjet fares which are rarely 'giveaway' these days but still relatively cheap. Eurostar doesn't even often compare well on price...

16k was recently quoted for a simple charter Pboro-Manchester and return, how much is the operational cost of a Manchester-Marseilles or whatever going to be, let alone it'll take the best part of a day vice a couple of hours!

So leisure passengers largely ruled put off by cost, business passengers largely put off by journey time I'd (sadly) say for anything much more adventurous than the proposed DB London-Frankfurt type jobs.

I thought that families, etc. on holiday might well go for the comfort of a direct London St Pancras-Barcelona service - after all, people on holiday are less concerned about time taken than business travellers. If they have tables for four at most seats and picture windows and market the comfort of the above, then that will attract (I think) at least a niche market. Given people's awareness about carbon footprints, etc. and the trend towards holidaying in the UK rather than flying, I think such a thing as a direct London-Barcelona service could well catch on.

JoeGJ1984 said:

I thought that families, etc. on holiday might well go for the comfort of a direct London St Pancras-Barcelona service - after all, people on holiday are less concerned about time taken than business travellers.

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I'd have to say even though air travel is considered stressful by certain groups such as families with young children, I do think they would be concerned about (what they felt were) excessive journey times to keep their children happy e.t.c.

Greenback said:

That is true, but the cheap fares are no longer as cheap as they were, and when you add on the cost of the extras, many optional travellers are just not going by air as much as they used to. More people are staying in the UK, and there seem to far fewer weekend getaways for stag and hen parties, for example.

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If you're willing to be flexible and jump through set hoops for the budget airlines, you can still get some brilliant deals that put advance train tickets to shame. For example, I flew last year with easyJet to Hamburg for just £30 return (in July as well!) by booking early in sale time, paying with a Visa Electron, taking no hold luggage, declining all extras, printing my boarding pass at home and making sure I read and stuck to all T&Cs. It can still be done - if you are willing to sacrifice comforts.

WestCoast said:

If you're willing to be flexible and jump through set hoops for the budget airlines, you can still get some brilliant deals that put advance train tickets to shame. For example, I flew last year with easyJet to Hamburg for just £30 return (in July as well!) by booking early in sale time, paying with a Visa Electron, taking no hold luggage, declining all extras, printing my boarding pass at home and making sure I read and stuck to all T&Cs. It can still be done - if you are willing to sacrifice comforts.

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I'm sure that it cans till be done, though that is much more of the exception now than it used to be. Perception of budget airlines has shifted too. People don't expect to find such bargains any more. Six or seven years ago, there wer eplenty of super cheapo deals, everyone was looking for them and everyone was tlaking about them. Now the only conversations you hear are about the extra charges and the lack of any cheap tickets available.

I'm afraid that the era of cheap air travel is drawing to a close.

Greenback said:

I'm sure that it cans till be done, though that is much more of the exception now than it used to be. Perception of budget airlines has shifted too. People don't expect to find such bargains any more. Six or seven years ago, there wer eplenty of super cheapo deals, everyone was looking for them and everyone was tlaking about them. Now the only conversations you hear are about the extra charges and the lack of any cheap tickets available.

I'm afraid that the era of cheap air travel is drawing to a close.

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"Everything was always cheaper in the past" - commonly said, not always true.

I am a member of Airliners.net (similar to this site but it's about passenger aviation!) and we discuss these matters properly. However, the budget airlines are pushing for higher yields from their fares and Ryanair is now using major airports in certain locations which is costing it more money! Easyjet are now aiming at the lucrative business market and adding frills. Factors like this is, in addition to kerosene (although you'd be surprised that it doesn't play the greatest role) have contributed to the strive for greater yields to cover costs and maintain profits. Fares go up.

Well, I have looked over my records about how much flights have cost over the past years.

The trend I can see is that there were similar fares to today around the 2000-2003 mark, however with the development of ancillary charges (which can be avoided if you are determined!) and the obscene expansion of Ryanair and easyJet in particular, fares seem to have fallen in the years 2004-2007 and now they have been pushed up again.

"Lack of cheap tickets" - completely depends on the route. If it's a summer sun route in peak season - forget it. Airlines have adapted to squeeze more pennies out of a lucrative market. Try the same route at an unpopular time and you may well be shocked at how much less the fare is!

Another problem is that many people think they are paying more now because of the fees. However, the inclusive fares of the recent past were dearer and included extras - so people didn't feel like they were paying more. Baggage e.t.c is now separate - so it does feel as if you are paying more. It feels like you are getting a worse deal. Not always true.

Summary - Fares have gone up, there are less deals BUT it is justifiable, price changes are exaggerated to a certain extent by the extra charges which do confuse people. IF you are really flexible and willing to jump through hoops the deals are as cheap as ever.

PErception is more important than facts. If people now believe that it is more expensive to fly, then it will put them off, even if it is not true. This may partly be because the cheap fares that came in at the start of the low cost revolution were far, far lower than people were used to.

However, as you admit, in most cases the total cost of the flight now is greater than it was just a few years ago. Taxes must take some of the blame for this, it's not all down to fuel prices or airline greed!

My view is that budget airline flying has become considerably more expensive if you are the average family with 2 adults and 2 kids, more demands (sitting together e.t.c) and hefty baggage.

If you're a single savvy traveller, who carries no baggage, follows all conditions precisely, jumps through hoops and goes where is cheapest - fares have come down!

The airlines want more needy families who make them ££££££, but they need to offer a stripped down price so they lure people in, in the hope that only a few Mr Cheapos can get the £10 fare or whatever.

And how many people actually fit the category of single, hoop jumping savvy traveller?!!!

I'm off for a sleep...!

Greenback said:

And how many people actually fit the category of single, hoop jumping savvy traveller?!!!

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Micheal O'Leary would have you believing that many people fit that category perfectly.

Actually, some of the regulars on Ryanair (there is a fan club!) actually know the system inside out and can beat them every time.

Greenback said:

And how many people actually fit the category of single, hoop jumping savvy traveller?!!!

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If you're Michael O Leary: everyone worthy of travelling.

Back to the topic in hand I'm more concerned about the time cost, if you're on a five day holiday then do you want to spend two of them travelling to and from your resort? (No doubt for many on here the answer is yes and the journey would be better than the holiday )

The thing about budget airlines that bothers me is their lax policies when it comes to paying out in case of a delay exacerbated by the fact I'd travel somewhere nice (and to me that means snow and ice)

If you've only got five days for your holiday, go to Skegness instead! lol

Greenback said:

If you've only got five days for your holiday, go to Skegness instead! lol

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Living close to Blackpool and Southport (they are so depressing in Winter, trust me!), the whole idea of that fills me with dread! I really am not a fan of British Seaside Resorts, even the supposedly more upmarket versions don't appeal to me in any way.

Greenback said:

And how many people actually fit the category of single, hoop jumping savvy traveller?!!!

I'm off for a sleep...!

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Me!

WestCoast said:

Living close to Blackpool and Southport (they are so depressing in Winter, trust me!), the whole idea of that fills me with dread! I really am not a fan of British Seaside Resorts, even the supposedly more upmarket versions don't appeal to me in any way.

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The ones on the south coast aren;t much better in the sumemr if you ask me!

starrymarkb said:

Me!

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There's bound to be some...

We don;t bother going abroad for less than a week now. Instead we vist places like the Cotswolds, North Yorkshire, Cornwall or even Mid/North Wales if we don't want to go far! We tend to avoid the coast, as we prefer the countryside for walks and peace and quiet, which you cna get plenty of if you avoid the main tourist traps in school holidays.

Four or five years ago we were going to places like Prague and Amsterdam for a few days, it's just not feasible now.

There's bound to be some...

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There is also the frugal VFR traveller (Visiting Foreign Relatives) - this makes up a surprising proportion of the budget airline trade and I fall into this one. There is also those who have a property abroad, and they also know the tricks to get out to their property more often.

These groups, along with migrants visiting home and the single savvies, probably make up around 50% of Ryanair's trade (more so than the other LCCs).

Four or five years ago we were going to places like Prague and Amsterdam for a few days, it's just not feasible now.

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Understandable, but Bristol to Rzeszów is still available for a low price!

JoeGJ1984 said:

I thought that families, etc. on holiday might well go for the comfort of a direct London St Pancras-Barcelona service - after all, people on holiday are less concerned about time taken than business travellers. If they have tables for four at most seats and picture windows and market the comfort of the above, then that will attract (I think) at least a niche market. Given people's awareness about carbon footprints, etc. and the trend towards holidaying in the UK rather than flying, I think such a thing as a direct London-Barcelona service could well catch on.

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A nice thought but I’m guessing here that you don't have children? Each year my family and I have a two week holiday in the south of France. Now while my kids will tolerate flying in anticipation of splashing around in the Med for two weeks, I’m not sure that they would be too keen on an 8 to 9 hour train journey. I have very fond of memories of my InterRail adventures but in terms of a family holiday time is not on our side. And given the summer we are having sod the carbon footprint!