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Mid Cheshire line - a new station?

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robert2000

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the same way liverpool south parkway was built, we close Hartford and Greenbank, or keep them open, and build a new station over the west coast mainline.

My question is, is there a need for a station there, and What will it be called if it was built?

My choices would be either Hartford Junction, Northwich Parkway.

any other station name ideas?
 
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Polarbear

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I'm sure the former Cheshire County Council had this in their long term transport plan? It was called Mid Cheshire Parkway in the plan, though if it is ever built, it may well take on another name.

If built, the chances are that the existing Hartford station would probably close. I can't see it happening any time soon though.
 

robert2000

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I thaught mid cheshire parkway was planned to be built nearer the n6, or am i thinking of another station.
 

Holly

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As a former local I have long thought that Hartford (Cheshire) station was built in the wrong place.

If a replacement station were moved a mile or so further North then:

1. It would be on a four track section of the WCML instead of two track.
2. Instead of a cramped location there would be lots of room to build. Brownfields on the East side, greenfields on the West.
3. A shuttle to Northwich would be possible and would provide an improved connection between WCML and Mid-Cheshire CLC line (Greenbank station). Presently a walk of a mile is needed, not fun in the rain.

Other than capital cost, I suspect there are issues I have missed however?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It is rather late in the day to be asking this question, as the station was built 174 years ago in 1837 by the Grand Junction Railway, which became part of the London and North Western Railway in 1846. The station is some distance from the centre of the village and is about 10-15 minutes walk from the station, with some bus stops on the road. You make mention of Greenbank station in your posting. This is about one mile away on the Mid-Cheshire line from Chester to Manchester.

Hartford goes back a considerable way in time and the village was recorded in the Domesday Book in 1086. As such, when ecclesistical power was very great, the village at that time was divided between two areas, with the majoritory belonging to the Witton chapelry of Great Budworth and the remainder in the parish of Weaverham cum Milton.

When the railways came to this part of Cheshire, the line as drawn looked to connect larger areas and stations in the intermediatry regions would have been built at the nearest place available on the line. This happened all over the country, in the period 1830 to 1855 in particular. The population of Hartford in 1851 (the nearest census that I can find to the opening date) was then only 950. Even allowing for much modern housing being built in the general area over recent times, the population in 2011 was still only 5515, which shows that it is indeed fortunate to be placed on the line that offers connections to Runcorn and Liverpool going north and to Crewe, Stafford and Birmingham going south. There are many places with very much larger population centres in the region who would be pleased to have the services that are enjoyed by Hartford. Places such as Middlewich are still fighting to be reconnected to the national rail network once again.

The infrastructure refurbishment for 2011 at the station includes a new voice announcement system and electronic live arrival and departure boards. London Midland did state that they were hoping to ensure more trains would be stopping at Hartford Station. The annual passenger useage has grown every year from 2004/2005 (70,088) to 2009/2010 (170,000).

You end your posting concerning a replacement station with the words...other than the capital cost!!. With that existing station infrastructure and upgrading works, I am sure that London Midland who manage this station see the finance for the current improvements as being the sum total financially that will be spent on Hartford Station. I am afraid that your hopes for a replacement station are doomed to failure from the outset.
 
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Holly

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... concerning a replacement station with the words...other than the capital cost!!. With that existing station infrastructure and upgrading works, I am sure that London Midland who manage this station see the finance for the current improvements as being the sum total financially that will be spent on Hartford Station ...
Thank you for the background information.

I had imagined that there had to be problems other than capital cost, but apparently not. Cost would be mitigated by land being valuable at the old site and cheap at the new site, and the benefits have some value (relatively little up front money though).

To consider money already spent on the station is the old sunk cost fallacy. You end up spending money merely to avoid looking incompetent if you go down that road.
 

stockport1

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if four tracking winsford-weaver junction rebuilding hartford 1/4 mile further north at the mid cheshire line crosing is a no brainer.
(more carpark space for possible parkway.)
building a southern a connection wcml/mid cheshire too?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It still does not address the fact that the population is only 5515. The former ICI passenger catchment no longer exists. Are you telling me that the accountants at London Midland are going to justify building a new station even with the cost of the sale of the land from the existing station, when all that they have to do is leave the matter as the status quo.

If there were to be a new town planned with a considerable influx of prospective passengers, this would have to be examined in a different financial light. Again, I repeat my statement made in my earlier posting that Middlewich, with a larger population base, is still fighting to have its rail link restored. This is the financial fact of life that has to be faced.
 

Holly

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It still does not address the fact that the population is only 5515. ....
You have to add in nearby Weaverham, that brings the total up to 12,000.
A new station would be in walking distance of both Hartford and Weaverham, the existing one is not.
The benefits of an interchange with the mid-Cheshire line will create a little traffic; as we discussed a one mile walk is presently needed to interchange.
The space for expansion.
But mostly being on a four track section instead of two will create new paths on the WCML. Extra paths on the WCML must have some value.

Of course the few people in Acton Bridge who use Acton Bridge station won't like the fact that a new Hartford station would take away much of the little traffic they have left (mostly from Weaverham).

Perhaps bring back the pre-war dodger train. Warrington-Acton Bridge-Hartford-Greenbank-Northwich-Middlewich-Sandbach-Crewe. (The Dodger can't go to Wharton ever again, it doesn't exist anymore)
 
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stockport1

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It still does not address the fact that the population is only 5515. The former ICI passenger catchment no longer exists. Are you telling me that the accountants at London Midland are going to justify building a new station even with the cost of the sale of the land from the existing station, when all that they have to do is leave the matter as the status quo.

grand central are going to run a london service from here shortly. if 4 tracking were to be done from winsford-weaver junction at anypoint hartford station would have to be demolished.

just makes sence to move it slightly to become an interchange.

Also hartford may just as well be called northwich west(pop 20,000)

If middlewich gets a new station (strong campaign for this) then a new northwich west would have great possibilities for the region.

winsford station also should be similarly moved if 4 tracking occured. the current station is on the edge of the town moving 1 mile north would make it more central and provide more railway land for a new station.

I am only suggesting this in the case that the 4 tracking ever occurs.

weaveram/hartford/northwich + surrounding areas population is much much more than 5000 :) and the benefits as an interchange to wcml would have an effect on the WHOLE mid cheshire line dare i say particularly knutsford with its dreadful road congestion
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There appears to be a strange attitude that if a line is not well used its not a priority etc. I think that certain lines with a bit of investment could become quite attractive to passengers. the mid cheshire particularly so. this line should still connect direct to manchester and at a pinch manchester central. the viaduct out of manchester is 5 track (2 used by metrolink) and alot of the line to altrincham was 4 track till the early 60's.

I find it an absolute joke that the a556 is crammed every morning with commuters to manchester and such a important line is left to pretty much rot.
 
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chefchenko

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hartford is a suburb of northwich which must have 20k plus population ! until fairly recently it used to get an out and back london train a day and a cross country train, but its the same old story...use it or lose it and hartford lost it !!
 

185

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I would say the following.

1. If anything Hartford should move south 300metres, to be on the Main A556 as a park and ride. Similar distance from town.

2. Acton Bridge should shut. Pointless rural location. Open Weaverham station 1100metres south near a major town and with park and ride for the Main A49.

3. Further north, Beechwood Estate (Runcorn South) on the Liverpool branch needs a station. Maybe also Preston Brook near the M56.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Grand Central are going to run a London service from here shortly. If 4 tracking were to be done from Winsford-Weaver junction at any point, Hartford station would have to be demolished. Also Hartford may just as well be called Northwich West(pop 20,000. ) If Middlewich gets a new station (strong campaign for this), then a new Northwich West would have great possibilities for the region.

Winsford station also should be similarly moved if 4 tracking occured. The current station is on the edge of the town. Moving 1 mile north would make it more central and provide more railway land for a new station.

I am only suggesting this in the case that the 4 tracking ever occurs.

When I first replied to the OP and then in my subsequent clarification, the matter that you make reference to three times in your posting above, is obviously very relevant to the question. That is the matter of FOUR-TRACKING the line in question.

My responses had to be based on the fact of what ACTUALLY is the matter at this point of time, with the current infrastructure BEING WHAT IT IS AT PRESENT.

Only if FOUR-TRACKING is ever to be effected will any new infrastructure be considered. This was the point that I tried to make when I made reference in my first reply concerning the accountants at London Midland.
 

merlodlliw

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hartford is a suburb of northwich which must have 20k plus population ! until fairly recently it used to get an out and back london train a day and a cross country train, but its the same old story...use it or lose it and hartford lost it !!

Welcome to RF, ICI Brunner Mond, employs only a fraction of the staff it once did, an Indian Company Tata now own it,yes Hartford is a suburb of Northwich
but with a small population, but the business demand is gone,suppose VT look at either Chester/Warrington or Crewe as London business stations,all within half an hour or less from Northwich,alas you need a car to get to the 3,except for Chester which is further away from London, but connects to Northwich via DMUs

Bob
 

stockport1

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I would say the following.

1. If anything Hartford should move south 300metres, to be on the Main A556 as a park and ride. Similar distance from town.

.

I agree with your sentiments BUT

the a556 traffic is east-west west-east. this equates to the same route as the mid cheshire.

your other points are fairly reasonable but id personally still like some kind of services at acton bridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When I first replied to the OP and then in my subsequent clarification, the matter that you make reference to three times in your posting above, is obviously very relevant to the question. That is the matter of FOUR-TRACKING the line in question.

My responses had to be based on the fact of what ACTUALLY is the matter at this point of time, with the current infrastructure BEING WHAT IT IS AT PRESENT.

Only if FOUR-TRACKING is ever to be effected will any new infrastructure be considered. This was the point that I tried to make when I made reference in my first reply concerning the accountants at London Midland.

we are in full agreement sir! :D

I agree it wont happen now ..not economically viable.

BUT 4 tracking of this section is brought up frequently in network rails documents and if it ever comes about linking the two lines with an interchange of sorts would be fantastic imho.

It would probably have to be at the expense of greenbank and acton bridge stations too.

regards
 

pemma

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If a replacement station were moved a mile or so further North

At the moment it's around 1 mile from Greenbank station and under 1 mile from Mid Cheshire College. If it was moved 1 mile north then it would be around 2 miles from Greenbank and would actually be in Weaverham. It would also effectively close Acton Bridge station altogether as the two stations would be too close to one another.

hartford is a suburb of northwich which must have 20k plus population ! until fairly recently it used to get an out and back london train a day and a cross country train, but its the same old story...use it or lose it and hartford lost it !!

Hartford is actually a village with a population of 5,500. Northwich's population is just under 20,000. Due to location of stations in the area many people in the village of Rudheath are within walking distance of Northwich station, while people in the Castle and Winnington areas are closer to Greenbank station than Northwich station.

It wasn't really a case of 'use it or lose it' for London services from Hartford, it was more a case of many smaller stations having their London service chopped to speed up services after the Virgin Trains franchise was introduced. Wilmslow lost all but a token London service and it was only after a political campaign and a huge increase in the number of Manchester-London services that Wilmslow got it's service reinstated.
 
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Holly

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... If it was moved 1 mile north then it would be around 2 miles from Greenbank and would actually be in Weaverham. It would also effectively close Acton Bridge station altogether as the two stations would be too close to one another. ...
But also an adjacent station on a same line as Greenbank, unlike today.
Moreover, justifiably closing Acton Bridge station is where a little of the money to build a new station would come from.

Yes, a new station would serve Weaverham as well as Hartford, that has to be good (except for the few people who live in Acton Bridge). It could also have a bay terminus for a local shuttle Hartford-Greenbank-Northwich-Middlewich-Sandbach.

But, sorry to harp on, the biggest benefit is moving Hartford from two-track and Acton Bridge from three-track to a single location on a four-track section of the WCML thereby increasing WCML capacity.
 

pemma

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But also an adjacent station on a same line as Greenbank, unlike today.

Yes, a new station would serve Weaverham as well as Hartford

That doesn't make any sense.

Look at http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...3.244314,-2.552776&spn=0.039754,0.065403&z=14

Moving Hartford station 1 mile north would place it near where the A49 crosses the WCML. It would then become virtually impossible to use for most people living in Hartford to use unless you also build a new road linking Hartford to the new station. Therefore the new station would serve the people of Weaverham and cease to serve people going to Hartford without cars, which would affect Mid Cheshire College considerably.

Moreover, justifiably closing Acton Bridge station is where a little of the money to build a new station would come from.

The process of closing a station costs millions of pounds to carry out which is why we have parliamentary trains. That's why I said 'effectively' close because it would actually mean the station would remain with probably one service per day.
 

Holly

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... Moving Hartford station 1 mile north would place it near where the A49 crosses the WCML. It would then become virtually impossible to use for most people living in Hartford to use unless you also build a new road linking Hartford to the new station. ...
That would be two miles.
And yes, a new station built on brownfields and/or greenfields would have to have a new approach road for pedestrians and vehicles.
Moving a station isn't the same as closing a station.
 

atillathehunn

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I have lived in Hartford for the last 18 years, and so perhaps can give a more local perspective!

There is little doubt that Hartford could do with a better train service, although having said that, the one at the moment is pretty damn good. We have new and reliable trains serving Liverpool and Birmingham every hour, with some increases in peak hours. Whilst not offering a huge range of destinations, one can still be in London within two hour from Hartford with a change at Crewe or Stafford. Whilst we don't have the London train any more, we are not totally isolated.

Brunner Mond aren't much of an employer here any more and certainly not employees who need to travel on business particularly. However, that does not mean the town is dead! In fact, there seems to be continuous investment in housing developments etc. and the population keeps expanding. I commute to the Netherlands every few weeks as that's where I study. My father commutes to London, Bristol and Glasgow and I know many other families in the area who commute. The trains in the morning from Hartford can be full and standing, and the same from Greenbank. The actual catchment for Hartford station will easily be 30, 000.

However, the real problems are a) parking b) northbound trains. There is little room for parking in Hartford car park. I live not even a minute away from the station, and cars can be found parked along the road for miles for the station. The Coachman pub used to offer parking, I'm not sure if it still does. The second problem is the lack of train to Warrington. There is a huge commuter base here in Hartford and mid-Cheshire to Warrington, but the only option of getting there on public transport is to get a very slow bus, or to go south to Crewe and back north (through Hartford) to Warrington.


Relocating the station isn't the answer, Acton Bridge station is already built in the proposed site. Quad tracking the section through Hartford isn't a solution, as there are housing developments on either side of the large cutting it runs through, not to mention the bridge over the Weaver which would need replacing. Even running a train over CLC junction to link with the Greenbank line isn't particularly needed. A bus runs from Hartford station to Greenbank station if one doesn't fancy a walk in the rain. The real need is a train north to Warrington. And perhaps if one is being picky, an earlier train south bound (leaving before 7am) and perhaps one later train in the evening northbound.
 

pemma

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That would be two miles.
And yes, a new station built on brownfields and/or greenfields would have to have a new approach road for pedestrians and vehicles.
Moving a station isn't the same as closing a station.

Just measured it and compared it to the scale. The A49 is 2000m north of Hartford station following the route of the train line. 1.6km= 1 mile so the A49 is 1.25 miles from Hartford station via the train line. Where the Greenbank to Chester line crosses the Hartford to Liverpool line is about 1/4 mile north of Hartford.
 

stockport1

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Just measured it and compared it to the scale. The A49 is 2000m north of Hartford station following the route of the train line. 1.6km= 1 mile so the A49 is 1.25 miles from Hartford station via the train line. Where the Greenbank to Chester line crosses the Hartford to Liverpool line is about 1/4 mile north of Hartford.

Thats where to build it...if four tracking of WCML between winsofrd and weaver jn ever occurs...another 400m along at the crossing of the mid cheshire. It then becomes an interchange and has plenty of unbuilt on land space for parking.

and yes there is land for 4 tracking of *most* of this section. the hardest bits are the viaducts. network rail contemplates this in their documents occasionally.

Northwich West Parkway. :D. may take some traffic from crewe and passengers from the north travelling to chester northwich,atrincham,manchester etc and may breath new life into the midcheshire line.
 

The Engineer

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Can an I add - going back to the original question - that in the early days the original route north from Crewe was planned as going direct to Middlewich, then Northwich, then over roughly via Marbury, Cogshall, Bartington and then keeping to the north side of the Weaver valley would have retaken the same route as today just north of Weaver Junction. The route made a lot of sense in that it didn't cross the Weaver twice like the present route but would have had some complexity at Northwich in crossing the CLC at right-angles. Perhaps a two level station aka Tamworth and Lichfield?

I am Northwich born and bred and a life long enthusiast and railway industry worker. I can remember in my early teens reading about this in local history. The route was surveyed but in the end dropped in favour of a route via Winsford which - at that time - was industrially more important than Northwich!

However, in terms of passenger flow it would be a great boon today to have had this route. Northwich always suffered from it's disconnection from the WCML, though the direct service to Crewe staggered on into the early 1960's, and there was at one time trains from Northwich to Acton Bridge, some extended to Warrington and Liverpool. But that was perhaps back in the 1920's when they went...
 

pemma

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there was at one time trains from Northwich to Acton Bridge, some extended to Warrington and Liverpool. But that was perhaps back in the 1920's when they went...

In reality I think the most sensible and realistic option for linking the lines is to run an Altrincham-Northwich-Warrington BQ service because:

1. Passenger numbers have increased enough at Altrincham, Knutsford and Northwich to justify 2tph in the off peak periods for those stations.
2. It provides a much needed public transport link between Knutsford and Warrington. There is a very infrequent bus service which suffered as a result of Cheshire County Council refusing to subside services run by Warrington Borough Transport (which is owned by Warrington Town Council.)

However, MCRUA and the two main Cheshire council's priorities revolve around reopening the Middlewich line and tram-train operation. LM still hope to run a Hartford-Warrington, Wigan and Preston service in the future so the missing link will get overlooked.
 

Holly

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One idea that had not occurred to me until this discussion would be to "move" (ie recreate) Hartford Station a mile to the North (placing it just North of Hartford Curve) and also move Acton Bridge station a mile and a half to the South. This would of course place the two stations adjoining each other and allow a platform or two to run between (a bit like the ancient Manchester Victoria/Exchange platform).
Two stations in name, one station from a civil engineering perspective.

This would leave all the advantages discussed in place (now blocking only an existing quad-track section of the WCML, room to expand, access to Hartford curve for a possible Hartford/Northwich service, serve Weaverham as well as Hartford, possible interchange betwen WCML and CLC mid-Cheshire).
But it would also effectively close a loss making station by stealth (Acton Bridge).

Really, one station at Hodge Lane (with new approach roads and car parks) would replace both Hartford and Acton Bridge to advantage.

I'm just not sure how "two stations in the more or less same place" would fly politically. I don't know that anyone has ever suggested such an idea!
 

pemma

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One idea that had not occurred to me until this discussion would be to "move" (ie recreate) Hartford Station a mile to the North (placing it just North of Hartford Curve) and also move Acton Bridge station a mile and a half to the South.

Those distances you've given would put Hartford station north of Acton Bridge station! Hartford is only 0.56miles south of the Hartford curve.
 

12CSVT

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It is unfortunate that the locations of Hartford, Acton Bridge and Greenbank statios mean that there is no meaningful interchange between the Crewe - Liverpool and Chester - Altrincham services. Would there be demand for a dedicated bus link (where rail tickets are valid) between Hartford and Greenbank ?
 

Bittern

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Some say the London Services from the station were well patronised, a stop was made at Hartford due to ICI & saved travelling to Chester or Crewe, of course ICI Mond Northwich was a vast site a few years ago.

And that if he was Prime Minister, something would actually happen. All we know is, he's not The Stig, but he is The Stig's Cheshirian cousin!
 
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