• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Paytrain

Status
Not open for further replies.

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,857
I do not have a clue if the title is the correct name for the scheme, but since the 1960s, tickets being bought on trains has been commonplace as trains which guards could walk through have been introduced. This also cut the cost of having staff at stations, but as far as I know, it wasn't a blanket introduction, separate lines were done in batches, but does anyone know anything more about it? I know Edinburgh-North Berwick adopted it in 1985, but other than that I don't know much.

Many thanks
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

WestCoast

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,574
Location
Glasgow
I have always understood the term "Paytrain" as meaning a service model introduced by BR, where on select services all tickets could be purchased onboard, including all discounted fares, regardless of whether the origin station was staffed or not.

It was introduced in line with booking office closures at some stations along a "paytrain line" as part of a rationalisation process.

It was mainly on provincial services with DMUs, such as those in South Yorkshire, here is a timetable from 1973.



I think the picture of the travellers walking past the booking office with "CLOSED" on it is hilarious. Promoting the closed booking office as a good thing! Credit to loose_grip_99 on Flickr.
 
Last edited:

flymo

Established Member
Joined
22 May 2007
Messages
1,534
Location
Geordie back from exile.
Pay Trains were used on the South Shields line and some of the North Tyne Loop services out of Newcastle in the early 70's too.
 

Attachments

  • Shields Pay Train.jpg
    Shields Pay Train.jpg
    170.2 KB · Views: 151
Last edited:

HORNIMANS

Member
Joined
30 Jul 2009
Messages
112
I remember paytrains being introduced over the whole of E Anglia in the late 1960's after the beeching cuts, I think it was part of BR,s 'Open Station Concept.'
 

Oliver

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2007
Messages
476
I remember paytrains being introduced over the whole of E Anglia in the late 1960's after the Beeching cuts, I think it was part of BR's 'Open Station Concept.'

East Anglia was a rare example of where the staff agreed to adopt the Pay Train procedures, which resulted in the survival of many of the branches. I think Gerry Fiennes was instrumental in getting it done. If only the staff in other areas had done the same, a lot more branches would have survived.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Fiennes
 
Last edited:

9K43

Member
Joined
1 May 2010
Messages
558
I have worked paytrains out of Huddersfield to Sheffield via Penistone and .
Huddersfield upto Clayton West for 2 years in the early 1980's.
When booking on for a paytrain you were given an Almex Ticket machine, excess book and a float of and issued £5 in loose coins.
On starting from Huddersfield, we took fares from the passengers, and from the people joining the train ' up the branch. '.
On a typical Clayton West run there and back you might take £2.50p if you were lucky.
On the Sheffield jobs the trains could be busy on a summer Saturday, but off peak trains were lightly loaded.
The money you took on these duties was paid into the Huddersfield Booking Office at the end of your shift.
We were also paid Pay Train Commision on the money you took.
These were happy times as no body seemed to be bothered.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
'Paytrains' helped reduce operating costs on many lines which had seen a dramatic fall in passenger numbers due to increased car usage.

As far as I know, station destaffing was carried out at different times on a line by line or area basis.
 

WestCoast

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,574
Location
Glasgow
As far as I know, station destaffing was carried out at different times on a line by line or area basis.

Was there some form of correlation between the the introduction of paytrains on a line and office closures?

The picture of the people walking past the office still does make me laugh!
 

9K43

Member
Joined
1 May 2010
Messages
558
The Stations up the Penistone Line were de staffed in early 1970, when the line from Clayton West Junction was singled to Penistone and guards took the job on.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Was there some form of correlation between the the introduction of paytrains on a line and office closures?

The picture of the people walking past the office still does make me laugh!

Yes. It was a case of having to cut out as many costs as possible to keep a line going. This usually meant DMU's and on train payment so that all stations (or most of them) became unstaffed.

It wasn't always that way though, as the KWVR website states that train services were reduced in 1956, with Ingrow and Oakworth becoming unstaffed halts while Haworth remained staffed. Guards took the fares on a three coach gangwayed set of stock.

http://www.kwvr.co.uk/guide/kwvr/guide-to-the-line.html
 

Railjet

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2009
Messages
408
The Birmingham - Redditch service used to be a Paytrain service before Cross-City days. There were only a handful of trains a day, including a morning Inter-City service from Gloucester - Leeds which I believe stopped at Barnt Green, Northfield, King's Norton and Bournville. A wizened old bat used to get on to issue tickets for journeys from these unstaffed stations.

Then suddenly, in 1978, 4 trains a day became 4 trains an hour :o. (Although not as far as Redditch - which still kept its 4 trains a day!)
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
3,564
The Darlington to Saltburn service used to be a Paytrain-and it was very irritating! They would only sell tickets for that route and so if you were going to change at Darlington for a longer journey, you had to pay separately for the local leg which of ocourse was more expensive than a through ticket would have been if it had existed at the time. In short, a complete rip-off.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,433
Location
Yorkshire
The Darlington to Saltburn service used to be a Paytrain-and it was very irritating! They would only sell tickets for that route and so if you were going to change at Darlington for a longer journey, you had to pay separately for the local leg which of ocourse was more expensive than a through ticket would have been if it had existed at the time. In short, a complete rip-off.
Was that really the rule back then? No excessing?

Of course now there are strict rules about this sort of thing, and there is also no requirement to queue at an interchange station if it means missing your onward train - was there previously such a requirement?

As for which lines were, I am told that the Leeds-Harrogate-York line was designated a 'Paytrain', at least one forum member who did journeys in the York area in the 1980s told me about that.

I don't know when the branding stopped, I had never heard of it until recently.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Before PORTIS it was impossible to issue long distance through tickets on a pay train. Conductors only had bus conductor type ticket machines, and a list of local fares. However, I would be very surprised if such tickets could not be excessed or exchanged at a main station.
 

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,683
My Metro Timetable from 1985 gives information to passengers about Paytrains and travelling "off the branch".
 

Attachments

  • hallamline0001.jpg
    hallamline0001.jpg
    118.3 KB · Views: 148
  • hallamtimes0001.jpg
    hallamtimes0001.jpg
    256.7 KB · Views: 118

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,683
ALMEX machines?

It varied across the country. Almex and Setright machines were used, but so also were a variety of other complicated looking devices.

There used to be a good website with a load of ticketing images, but I think it was on fotopic as I've not seen it for a bit.
 
Last edited:

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
3,564
Before PORTIS it was impossible to issue long distance through tickets on a pay train. Conductors only had bus conductor type ticket machines, and a list of local fares. However, I would be very surprised if such tickets could not be excessed or exchanged at a main station.
The possibililty of excessing was certainly never offered to me.
 

WestCoast

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,574
Location
Glasgow
I'm presuming that if a ticket office was available you could use it, although you had no obligation to do so?
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Well, when we moan about things now, we should at least be grateful that we can buy a huge range of tickets on board!
 

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,683
My image above, post 16, says that "if travelling beyond the branch you can re-book at Leeds, Wakefield or Sheffield". Whether "re-book" means excess or start afresh is a different matter.
 

WestCoast

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,574
Location
Glasgow
Well, when we moan about things now, we should at least be grateful that we can buy a huge range of tickets on board!

Well, you can buy pretty much anything onboard (when permitted) now thanks to Avantix (and SPORTIS)...
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
It's a wonder rail retained any long distance custom on paytrains branches if you had to rebook every time and pay more than you should have done.
 

WestCoast

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,574
Location
Glasgow
It's a wonder rail retained any long distance custom on paytrains branches if you had to rebook every time and pay more than you should have done.

Wasn't SPORTIS introduced in the early 80s - so that situation would have been resolved around 10-15 years after the majority of paytrains were introduced?
 

Welshman

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
3,017
It's a pity that the Paytrain system was not introduced at the same time as the first dmus.
I'm thinking especially of branch lines in the West Riding, for example Bradford-Wakefield via Batley or Bradford-Huddersfield via Cleckheaton. Then these lines might have survived the Beeching cuts and still be making a valuable contribution in reducing road congestion today.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Wasn't SPORTIS introduced in the early 80s - so that situation would have been resolved around 10-15 years after the majority of paytrains were introduced?

Something tells me PORTIS came in at the same time as APTIS - 1984 or 1985, probably depneding on location.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,818
Location
Yorks
My Metro Timetable from 1985 gives information to passengers about Paytrains and travelling "off the branch".

Cheers for that. I notice with interest that the service between Leeds and Normanton appears to have deteriorated with fewer trains, slower times and an earlier last train back <(
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top