East Coast Class 90?

sprinterguy · 30 Jun 2011

NightatLaira said:
And just out of interest: are mk3 coaches heavier than mk4s? Or is it the other way around?

The mark 4s are a good deal heavier than the mark 3s.

I'd think that a class 90 would be well suited to the slower, more regular stop East Coast services (The Newark/York stoppers) and would manage to keep time with a 91 due to the 90s' better acceleration.
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route:oxford said:
So what Mk3 stock do PB have at LM at the moment?

10231/40/53, 11006/11/26, 12008/22/29/36/45/47/63/65/83/87/92/95/101/34/42/44/56/58/60/63

As far as I know anyway. It's very true that, as others have said, DB and Cargo-D have hoovered up a good deal of the mark 3s that didn't move to the Norwich route.

That'd be enough for three decent length (8/9 carriages) mark 3 rakes.

RailUK Forums

western Champion · 30 Jun 2011

captainbigun said:
Well, I'll happily talk to him directly if he shows his face! Failing that name the forum and I'll go figure myself!

I didn't say 90s didn't have UIC sockets, they were built with them from new! However, how well they have been maintained given no use in the last 10 years remains to be seen. Rubbing plates are desirable for operation with Mk4s, you're right in that not all of the 90s had/have them.

So out of interest how do a 90 and a 91 differ internally ? having been a driver for 22 years and I've signed 90s I'd be interested to know. Is the brake frame, MCB's, Flags, Fault lights, TDM rack etc etc the same ?

sprinterguy · 30 Jun 2011

SC318250 said:
90034 is almost ready to re-enter service having recieved new wheelsets, and I believe 90027 is now in receiving new wheelsets. 90029/039 also require new wheelsets.

Be interesting to see whether a few of the ones that were for dispossal are now returned to service

90027 would be a top candidate for a paint job into EC livery if this plan goes ahead. It's still in Trainload grey.

captainbigun · 30 Jun 2011

A 91 has an E70 brake frame derivative of the HST version and the same as the 89. It's literally all on a frame (aside from the main reservoirs), loco high and about 3 metres wide, parking brake kit on the right hand end. All of the brake equipment is D&M, unlike a 90 which is a mix of D&M and WH. Internally there's a central corridor as the transformer is underslung, the 90 being an (cheap!) 87 derivative with the transformer internally mounted. There are raised floor areas to account for the drive arrangement and the motors being body mounted. The main converters are oil cooled as opposed to air cooled on a 90, dictated by rating and cooling requirements. Oil is more efficient than air and has the added bonus of acting as an insulator.

The equipment, whilst similar in theme, still a phase angle controlled vehicle is located slightly differently to account for the different internal layout. Some of the electronics rack is the same as are the TDM interfaces. The latter is also found in Mk3 and Mk4 DVT. There are a number of GEC products from the time that have common components. The TDM rack is a common component, they are all the same, 86/87/89/90/91/DVT/DBSO (and HST when they had them).

I'm sure you've seen pictures of the cab, as built a 91 is very similar to a skoda. The blunt end is still as built, however the no.1 end was upgraded and rebuilt during HGR.
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MCR247 said:
Not allowed to name the forum

Ah ha, the resident skoda expert....

Peter Mugridge · 30 Jun 2011

Early publicity when the 90s were first ordered ( as 87/2s ) described them as being 125mph locomotives; when delivered they were 110mph locomotives. Was that just a paper excercise or were there design changes related to the lower maximum speed?

If it was just a paper excercise I am wondering if it is possible to get a 90 approved for 125mph for ECML use?

captainbigun · 30 Jun 2011

Peter Mugridge said:
Early publicity when the 90s were first ordered ( as 87/2s ) described them as being 125mph locomotives; when delivered they were 110mph locomotives. Was that just a paper excercise or were there design changes related to the lower maximum speed?

If it was just a paper excercise I am wondering if it is possible to get a 90 approved for 125mph for ECML use?

Interesting, I've seen seen them quoted as 125 mph machines. Realistically they would have given the track a bit of a bashing at 125, the 91s are much more track friendly with their body mounted motors. A BP13/13a (i.e. 86/2 with SABs and flexicoils) is marginally better on the track than a BP9. They were always going to build upon 87101, i.e. BP9 bogies, GEC 412 motors and phase angle control. In that respect I don't really see how they could have been touted as 125mph machines.

JKJimar53 · 30 Jun 2011

Am booking tickets for Leeds on East Coast soon, which trains are used and does any of the seating have restricted views, i dont want to choose the wrong seats.

YorkshireBear · 30 Jun 2011

JKJimar53 said:
Am booking tickets for Leeds on East Coast soon, which trains are used and does any of the seating have restricted views, i dont want to choose the wrong seats.

Not many seats in mk4 or mk3 have restricted views ive never had one. they use HST's but more commonly 91+ mkIV on leeds services

MCR247 · 30 Jun 2011

JKJimar53 said:
Am booking tickets for Leeds on East Coast soon, which trains are used and does any of the seating have restricted views, i dont want to choose the wrong seats.

Says in the timetables which trains are used...

silentone · 30 Jun 2011

I think the plan has always been to source another set from somewhere, there was the hullabaloo over the Pendolino they were looking into. That's now not happening.

They were looking at the old Eurostar sets that GNER had, they had some issues with overnight stabling which was the main problem.

Seems they've gone back to the original plan NXEC had.

TGV · 30 Jun 2011

captainbigun said:
.... Internally there's a central corridor as the transformer is underslung, the 90 being an (cheap!) 87 derivative with the transformer internally mounted.......

Nothing wrong with internally mounted transformers. Some of the finest (not cheap) rolling stock does just that...

Hydro · 30 Jun 2011

TGV said:
Nothing wrong with internally mounted transformers. Some of the finest (not cheap) rolling stock does just that...

I don't think that the intention was to say internally mounted transformers make the loco cheap per se. 90's have a reputation for being quite, shall we say, economically built.

hello · 1 Jul 2011

that pic of 24, looks like it doesnt have a rubbing plate on it

junglejames · 1 Jul 2011

[
Oh, and regarding 90s going 125. This isnt the first time ive heard this. A driver has also said the same, that they could go 125 if you wanted. Not sure if any regearing would need to take place though.

captainbigun said:
I didn't say 90s didn't have UIC sockets, they were built with them from new! However, how well they have been maintained given no use in the last 10 years remains to be seen. Rubbing plates are desirable for operation with Mk4s, you're right in that not all of the 90s had/have them.

Yes sorry, i can see how you meant the UIC comment now.
As for rubbing plates. Plenty of 90s have been used with Mk4s with no rubbing plates by the seems of it. So i cant see DB or EC worrying about that.

captainbigun · 1 Jul 2011

junglejames said:
Oh, and regarding 90s going 125. This isnt the first time ive heard this. A driver has also said the same, that they could go 125 if you wanted. Not sure if any regearing would need to take place though.
But of course, dont listen to me.

A GEC 412 will do 125 with it's standard gearing, but that's not what it's designed to do. So, the motor is operating above it's rotational limit and overspeeding the motor is a danger. I'd like to see the driver that wound his 90 up, birds nested a motor or motors then had a nice chat with his DSM whilst they looked at the OTMR download.
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TGV said:
Nothing wrong with internally mounted transformers. Some of the finest (not cheap) rolling stock does just that...

Yes, you're right....but walk through a 90 and then walk through an 87. The difference in the standard of construction is marked......one looks as though a load of parts were tipped in a box and glued where they landed, the other looks as though some time and thought went into it. I particularly like the cable troughs in the corridor on a skoda.
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Hydro said:
I don't think that the intention was to say internally mounted transformers make the loco cheap per se. 90's have a reputation for being quite, shall we say, economically built.

Yes, absolutely. They were built to a price, as where the 91s to a point. The 87s weren't and it shows. The 91 HGR dealt with the original build and component issues. To make a skoda similarly reliable you'd need to spend similar money. But it doesn't come cheap....

nctx · 1 Jul 2011

The Badger class 89001 is getting her Traction Motors worked on . So maybe see could come back from the dead.

captainbigun · 1 Jul 2011

nctx said:
The Badger class 89001 is getting her Traction Motors worked on . So maybe see could come back from the dead.

Indeed, something that I'm involved with.

There's more info on the ACLG's website. However, a brief bit of info for those interest...

The worst of the six motors had infact flashed over and much of the mica vee ring beneath the comm is burnt. The vee ring will be replaced. The damage was caused by incorrect application of the PTFE ring, not enough resin had been applied to seal the gap between the comm and the vee ring allowing moisture and dirt in which eventually led to the tracking through the mica. This motor also has an earth fault in it's SEPEX field winding, this will be attended to. It's clear that when the motor (and the other 5) was overhauled for GNER a less than satisfactory job was done.

The remaining motors will be straight forward to overhaul, the first of these is now with another contractor to test the first overhauled field converter. We've been very lucky in obtaining the parts for these as they are rarer than hens teeth.

She's not about to hit the mainline, but she'll be able to move herself which she couldn't do when she left BN.

junglejames · 1 Jul 2011

captainbigun said:
A GEC 412 will do 125 with it's standard gearing, but that's not what it's designed to do. So, the motor is operating above it's rotational limit and overspeeding the motor is a danger.
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Yes, absolutely. They were built to a price, as where the 91s to a point. The 87s weren't and it shows. The 91 HGR dealt with the original build and component issues. To make a skoda similarly reliable you'd need to spend similar money. But it doesn't come cheap....

Well considering you shouldnt overspeed motors, I think its fair to say then that a 412 couldnt do 125 with the current gearing. So why say it could? Its like saying my car could do 125mph, but expect the engine to go haywire in the mean time.

To make a Skoda simirlarly reliable? Are you on about the Octavia or what? Oh sorry, you mean a 90. Well why dont you find the latest reliability figures. Check the best performing fleet of 90s (no, thats not DB either. So dont go finding the worst performing fleet that isnt maintained very well), and compare the figures to the 91. Amazingly they are extremely similar. The 90s and 91s are the most reliable Intercity trains in the UK (Voyagers and Meridians not included in the Intercity figures).

E&W Lucas · 1 Jul 2011

A couple of enquiries to individuals that would have been likely to have know about this if it was happening, have come back as "know nothing".

captainbigun · 1 Jul 2011

Thanks matey. Although my intention wasn't to squabble....some folk are interested in the technical side and I'm happy to impart the info where I can.

DarloRich · 1 Jul 2011

If EC did use a 90 I would assume it would be on the York semi fasts and would need:

1) Find, obtain, repair, refurbish and overhaul at least one Rake of Mkiii coaches
2) Find, obtain, repair, refurbish and overhaul a A Compatible DVT for each rake
3) keep to the following schedule, taking the 1601 rom York as an example:

York - 1601
Doncaster - 1624
Retford 1639
Newark 1654
Grantham - 1707
Peterborough - 1727
Stevenage - 17:57
Kings Cross - 1828

4) Find somewhere to stable and service. Do EC have the correct skills and facilities? (There is nowhere near York unless they run through to Heaton as you cant easily get to Neville Hill every night to maintain and stable) Can Bounds Green take the extra fleet?
5) Train up staff and drivers
6) Commision/test/work up said fleet
7) Publicise operations
8) Ensure sets have suitable or acceptable livery
9) Check timetbales and diagrams and crew rosters
10) Failure mitigation plans in place

then operate!

ainsworth74 · 1 Jul 2011

If it might put my head above the parapet and avoid getting it shot off in the cross fire between junglejames and captainbigun I was just wondering what a rubbing plate is and what exactly it does?

captainbigun · 1 Jul 2011

Ha ha, of course you can!

Take a look here, proper loco!

You'll see that there's a horizontal plate between the (retractable) buffers. This is used in conjunction with a buckeye, you can just about make this out, in the dropped position, in the bottom photo. It's designed to be used in a push/pull configuration. Conventional buffers whilst they are OK, aren't optimised for this method of operation. The connecting carriage will have a matching rubbing plate (and buckeye).

junglejames · 1 Jul 2011

captainbigun said:
Look, I've no idea what you're issue is. I've also no idea what you're babbling about. If you actually knew anything you'd know that a SKODA overspeeds at 121mph.

Go and learn some more about the history of the 90s and 91s, and the 91s post HGR. In the meantime stop talking bollocks. Maybe learn something about punctuation and grammar along the way. I'm well aware of the MPC figures for the various fleets thanks.

Eh. I just pointed out that your previous comment never made sense. First you say the traction motor could manage 125, but then in the same sentence, you say this would cause it to overspeed. So it cant manage 125.
I never once made out i knew whether 90s could do 125 or not. I have just pointed out what i had heard, then pointed out that you contradicted yourself.
So, going by your quote that the traction motor would overspeed at 121mph, no, a 90 couldnt do 125. Certainly not without any regearing.

So, because I have claimed it wouldnt take much for drivers to convert from a 91 to a 90, and then because I pointed out how you had contradicted yourself, you have come to the conclusion that I am talking rubbish?

You have no idea how much I know about 90s and 91s. I have only claimed one thing, and that was regarding the conversion for drivers. I haven't gone into any details about them, so its not possible for you to say how much I know. There is next to nothing that I have claimed that you can bring down.

YorkshireBear · 1 Jul 2011

thanks for explantion on rubbing plate i too didnt know what they were.

MCR247 · 1 Jul 2011

captainbigun said:
Ha ha, of course you can!

Take a look here, proper loco!

You'll see that there's a horizontal plate between the (retractable) buffers. This is used in conjunction with a buckeye, you can just about make this out, in the dropped position, in the bottom photo. It's designed to be used in a push/pull configuration. Conventional buffers whilst they are OK, aren't optimised for this method of operation. The connecting carriage will have a matching rubbing plate (and buckeye).

Although they are not needed for 90s to work with MK4s

captainbigun · 1 Jul 2011

MCR247 said:
Although they are not needed for 90s to work with MK4s

Don't you start! You're right, there's plenty of photos out there that'll show you that. However, it's still desirable. A Mk4 set can still be shoved with conventional draw gear.

ainsworth74 · 1 Jul 2011

Interesting thank you

37402 · 1 Jul 2011

captainbigun said:
Well, I'll happily talk to him directly if he shows his face! Failing that name the forum and I'll go figure myself!

Search for t h e m e s s r o o m on google (obviously minus spaces).
Cant type it on here as it seems some people are a tad touchy about it!
Enjoy.
Although be warned, the word 'Skoda' causes mass outrage (so much so that its funny). :lol:

captainbigun · 1 Jul 2011

Ta, nice to see people having a pop in the closet.....

East Coast Class 90?

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