Next generation Oyster cards could stop overcharging

GodAtum · 10 Jul 2011

It looks like some good news could be on the way for commuters who use Oyster cards.

As I've reported before, the issue of incomplete journeys or "overcharging" on Oyster is a problem and it costs Londoners millions a year when they are given maximum fares.

It happens when people don't or can't touch out, when for example there's a technical problem with the card readers.

For that you get a maximum fare of up to £7.40.

As I've mentioned before, the "Selective Auto Completion" option - which means you don't have to touch out - that Transport for London (TfL) can use when there are large crowds also has flaws.

The main one is that you have to touch in again within three days at to the same station to make it work.
Frank response

But behind the scenes at TfL, work has been going on to reduce the number of incomplete journeys and that indicates they do acknowledge it is an issue.

This is what they have said in a frank response to a Freedom of Information request from the Liberal Democrats on the London Assembly:

"We recognise that more can be done and are working to further improve Oyster and the service provided to customers, including improved journey history information and work on a technological solution which we hope to introduce later this year to tackle the issue of incomplete journeys."

It has not been officially confirmed but I've been told that one of the solutions will be a type of "automatic journey complete".

What this means is if you do the same route five times a week and you don't touch out once, then the system will automatically complete the journey for you.

The idea is to limit the number of times the system will be allowed to do that every month. Although it's still early days, many commuters will welcome the move, and it certainly shows there's plenty of potential left in developing the Oyster card system.

There will also undoubtedly be questions around how many times a month is deemed fair and if the system can do it once, why not do it every time?

TfL's press office would only say: "We are working on a technological solution which we hope to introduce later this year to tackle the issue of incomplete journeys, which affect just 2% of the 7.5 million weekly Oyster Pay As You Go journeys on the TfL network."

But will auto journey complete help?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14086122

Do you believe this will solve the problem?

RailUK Forums

RJ · 10 Jul 2011

Nope! I think it says more about the population than the system, if people struggle with the concept of validating at the beginning of a journey and validating again at the other end. Perhaps people who are too forgetful to use the card properly should consider use alternative ticketing options.

Haven't got any official statistics to hand, but I suspect the number of 'inevitable' incomplete journeys caused by technical errors and Finsbury Park type phenomenons are in the overwhelming minority.

N.B. The Finsbury Park problem was brought up in the most recent LU ticketing circular.

ian13 · 11 Jul 2011

GodAtum said:
TfL's press office would only say: "We are working on a technological solution which we hope to introduce later this year to tackle the issue of incomplete journeys, which affect just 2% of the 7.5 million weekly Oyster Pay As You Go journeys on the TfL network."

That's up to 150,000 incomplete journeys a week!

jon0844 · 11 Jul 2011

RJ said:
N.B. The Finsbury Park problem was brought up in the most recent LU ticketing circular.

I'd love to know what is being said about FPK as it's a mess. RPIs I've overheard are slating the Oyster card system and admitting there are major problems and they know passengers are getting confused.

RPIs are told that people must touch out of the tube and back in at the FCC gateline, and vice versa. However, if the gates are open then surely you can continue your journey without touching anything? Two RPIs were discussing this very point and clearly weren't sure.

If the gates are open, most people are now aware they must touch in to travel on FCC, but some forget and then touch 'in' by going back and using the pad on the gateline as if they were leaving - which I believe just gives an error - yet the person may not realise and think they've touched in successfully. Bad news when they need an RPI on the train later on!

The gates are open between 0730-0900 in the morning peak on platforms 1/2 and in the evening peak on platforms 5/6. Perhaps FCC should have installed one or two traditional validators on the platform for when the gates are open.

People are constantly confused that when they get on to the FCC platforms with PAYG they see their credit drop by the full fare when touching in, which is then adjusted when they touch out. I can only assume PAYG doesn't do this everywhere, going by the number of people who ask FCC why they've been charged so much (with the 'don't worry, it will sort itself out' response).

MikeWh · 11 Jul 2011

jonmorris0844 said:
I'd love to know what is being said about FPK as it's a mess.

So would I.

jonmorris0844 said:
People are constantly confused that when they get on to the FCC platforms with PAYG they see their credit drop by the full fare when touching in, which is then adjusted when they touch out. I can only assume PAYG doesn't do this everywhere, going by the number of people who ask FCC why they've been charged so much (with the 'don't worry, it will sort itself out' response).

That is how PAYG works, although you don't normally see it on the screen. When you touch in it displays your balance before deducting the maximum fare. When you touch out it displays your new balance and confirms what fare was actually charged. What I guess happens at FPK is when someone who is in the Oyster system tries to enter through the FCC gateline it displays their balance with the maximum fare already deducted at the station where they started the journey. That would definitely be confusing. What they should do is automatically end the tube journey and adjust the balance accordingly, display that balance, then re-deduct the rest of the maximum fare. That is how it would work if you had already ended the tube journey properly, as it does at any OSI on the network.

WatcherZero · 11 Jul 2011

So the system makes up for your cockup by automatically signing you out if you didnt, but upto a monthly cap. How will people know of their mistakes then?

'Ive been doing this for a fortnight without touching out and now I have too, why?'
: Public reaction

Royston Vasey · 11 Jul 2011

jonmorris0844 said:
People are constantly confused that when they get on to the FCC platforms with PAYG they see their credit drop by the full fare when touching in, which is then adjusted when they touch out.

Agree, it is understandable that the full deduction is made to cover for (almost) all journey eventualities, but one of my pet hates is the fact that the statement includes every deduction and re-credit on touch in and out - there isn't an option (that I've found) to just display what deductions have been made, and for what journey. This is annoying as I often take Oyster journeys and claim on expenses, but without a clear "Z1 off peak single £1.90" on the statement, I have to annotate every pair of deductions/credits.

The second thing is the ridiculous system of accounts only being updated once a day, and compounded by the inability to top up cards online, instantaneously.

It is a major pain in the arse that if you're heading to London at short notice and want to top up remotely using an online payment, you may only do it 24 hours later, and it seems odd that you have to nominate a station to touch in at to pick up the credit... surely it is not beyond the realms of technology to credit the amount next time the card is touched in at any station at any time...?

island · 11 Jul 2011

Royston Vasey said:
Agree, it is understandable that the full deduction is made to cover for (almost) all journey eventualities, but one of my pet hates is the fact that the statement includes every deduction and re-credit on touch in and out - there isn't an option (that I've found) to just display what deductions have been made, and for what journey. This is annoying as I often take Oyster journeys and claim on expenses, but without a clear "Z1 off peak single £1.90" on the statement, I have to annotate every pair of deductions/credits.

A statement printed at a station might be more useful for your purposes.

Royston Vasey said:
It is a major pain in the arse that if you're heading to London at short notice and want to top up remotely using an online payment, you may only do it 24 hours later, and it seems odd that you have to nominate a station to touch in at to pick up the credit... surely it is not beyond the realms of technology to credit the amount next time the card is touched in at any station at any time...?

You do have the option of topping up at a ticket office or POM, but Irish Rail manages to let you pick up online credits anywhere on its network...

JKJimar53 · 11 Jul 2011

Would be good if you select a station then its available in 2hours like TOD on National Rail.

MikeWh · 11 Jul 2011

JKJimar53 said:
Would be good if you select a station then its available in 2hours like TOD on National Rail.

If they could do it using the TVM oyster reader then I agree that using the TOD software could work, but once you're going to a TVM you might as well top up there anyway.

The reason that they have to know where you are going to top up is because each station has it's own local server which only sends and receives centralised data overnight. There is no way that any communication which required a network enquiry could take place in the time allowed while the passenger touches on the reader.

barrykas · 12 Jul 2011

jonmorris0844 said:
RPIs are told that people must touch out of the tube and back in at the FCC gateline, and vice versa. However, if the gates are open then surely you can continue your journey without touching anything? Two RPIs were discussing this very point and clearly weren't sure.

First rule of Oyster: You must ALWAYS touch in and out, even if the gates are open. (Unless they're powered down or in emergency exit mode, in which case the readers won't be active).

Of course, this also relies on people going through the "right" gate when they're open...

Cheers,

Barry

RJ · 12 Jul 2011

In my experience, the first time you touch in on a standing validator, it displays your current balance. Subsquent validations show your balance less the Entry Charge.

MikeWh · 12 Jul 2011

jonmorris0844 said:
RPIs are told that people must touch out of the tube and back in at the FCC gateline, and vice versa. However, if the gates are open then surely you can continue your journey without touching anything? Two RPIs were discussing this very point and clearly weren't sure.

barrykas said:
First rule of Oyster: You must ALWAYS touch in and out, even if the gates are open. (Unless they're powered down or in emergency exit mode, in which case the readers won't be active).

Of course, this also relies on people going through the "right" gate when they're open...

Cheers,

Barry

What we're talking about here though is touching out and in in the middle of your journey rather than touching in and out at the ends. The simple fact is that it is NOT necessary to touch out and in at Finsbury Park if the gates are open. Consider a journey from Warren Street to Alexandra Palace. The Oyster system does not know or care whether you change at Highbury & Islington or Finsbury Park. It will charge you the correct fare with 2 touches, 3 touches* or 4 touches.

* This assumes you didn't touch out of the Underground but needed to touch in on the NR platforms at Finsbury Park. Additionally you can touch on the platform validators at Highbury & Islington, BUT, this is NOT recommended as you will be in grave danger of getting a PF if checked by a FCC RPI.

Daniel · 12 Jul 2011

Something else that came up in the latest revenue circular - when this new, improved, automatically resolving thingy comes in, staff won't be able to resolve an incomplete journey, be that on ticket machines or in the ticket office.

island · 12 Jul 2011

Daniel said:
Something else that came up in the latest revenue circular - when this new, improved, automatically resolving thingy comes in, staff won't be able to resolve an incomplete journey, be that on ticket machines or in the ticket office.

Presumably they will still manage it over the phone?

The Mrs. has occasionally gotten emails a few days after a problematic journey telling her a refund of some amount (which is invariably wrong) has been sent to some station which she isn't going to

AlterEgo · 12 Jul 2011

island said:
Presumably they will still manage it over the phone?

The Mrs. has occasionally gotten emails a few days after a problematic journey telling her a refund of some amount (which is invariably wrong) has been sent to some station which she isn't going to

I have had a refund of over seven quid recently. I have absolutely no idea what it was for, but I did use the ELL during disruption the previous week....

Daniel · 12 Jul 2011

island said:
Presumably they will still manage it over the phone?

Yes, everything through the 0845 Oyster Helpdesk..

swt_passenger · 12 Jul 2011

One point about the BBC article, is that AFAICS this isn't really about 'next generation Oyster cards' at all, is it?

Everything that's been explained is about altering the software to solve the apparent problems with uncompleted journeys on the existing system.

I think with his headline the BBC journalist has confused the next major change to the system - which introduces payment using EMV contactless credit/debit cards - we discussed it a few months back...

whhistle · 13 Jul 2011

I gave up using the Oyster card system.
Used it for once day, only struggled twice to swype in / out but I don't understand the charging system at all and think it is more complicated than it needs to be (all these charges and refunds!). I'll copy and paste my journey details when I am at a suitable PC in the hope someone can explain what exactly is going on! Ha ha

Next generation Oyster cards could stop overcharging

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