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London midland 150's - reallocations

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Class172

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Remember that 001 & 002 are very non-standard and have a smaller fuel tank thank the rest of the 150 fleet so cant be added to a diagram where it does a lot of mileage, also as they are the prototypes I wouldnt be surprised if LM do special things to keep them running.....
That's one of the reasons I'd hope they use - aren't many of Northern's 150 diagrams quite lengthy.
 
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150001

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Can we please keep in mind that 001 and 002 already do a lot of miles a day all ready and running between Worcester, Stratford, Dorridge etc. all day requires a large fuel tank, and I still haven't seen 001 or 002 having to fill up half way through the day. They run long hours on longish routes throughout the day and the smaller fuel tank doesn't prevent that. I'm sure that they could run for Northern perfectly fine.:D
 

158722

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So, what is happening to 150001, 002 and 016 and 017. Northern? I reckon that Northern would keep them as 3 car sets however.

Its all very simple, apart from the exact unit numbers.

No problem with 150016/017, the announcement suggests that they and all the other 3-car 150/1&150/2 hybrids, will return to 2-car and be reallocated as per the new plan. Their current centre cars 57209/212 remain unallocated, along with 'true' 3-car sets 150001/002.

150001 (poster, not unit!), your list seems more or less right, but FGW were to receive 150101/102/104/106/108/122/124/125/126 (all now leased to FGW, sub-leased to LM until transfer) plus 2 other 150/2s, possibly 150214/216.

150105/107/109 quoted as the LM units, so everything else goes to Northern, bar 150001 (unit not poster!)/150002 and 57209/212 - until someone decides what to do with the 8 vehicles.
 

150001

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Thanks a lot, I'll edit the list! Thanks!:D

Oh, about 150104, according to Colin Marsden Rail Guide book, it isn't allocated to FGW however I believe you over the book now!
 

150222

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There is already a shortage of dmu's without withdrawing trains with a good 10 years in them.
 

Class172

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Yes, they've still got plenty of life left in them, I'm sure they'll get preserved eventually.
 

tbtc

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most of the 3 car units will be reformed in to 2 car units

I'd like to see Northern run more three car services, since there's precious little capacity through Manchester* etc for more trains to run, but there is a need for an extra carriage on many services - that'd spread the benefit around more.

* - I say Manchester as my understanding is that the vast majority of the additional 142/150s (replacing the 156/180s) are for the "west" side of the franchise, with this cascade having little impact upon Northern services operated by Heaton/Neville Hill.
 

159220

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Sorry i am feeling a little dim regarding 57209 & 57212.

Where are 52209 & 52212?

I dont quiet understand why cant the two 57s be reunited with the two 52s thus getting back 150209 & 150212?
 

RPI

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There is already a shortage of dmu's without withdrawing trains with a good 10 years in them.
I wouldn't be too sure, with the latests cascade there will now be spare units and with 001/002 being almost non-standard it wouldn't surprise me if they were candidates for early withdrawall, as much as pacer's need to be replaced they are still a large standard fleet, the question could certainly be asked of the ROSCO if enough keen people were to get together.
 

150001

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Northern do need extra capacity and they could increase frequencies etc. Also, electrification is going at a agonising slow rate and with new DMUs unlikely to be ordered now, the 150s will have routes to work on and can work on branch lines etc. The pacers are not the most popular train and are like cattle sheds to some. The 150s are better and stronger than the 142s. Anyway, couldn't 001 and 002 go to FGW to provide extra capacity there?
 

pemma

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Northern do need extra capacity and they could increase frequencies etc. Also, electrification is going at a agonising slow rate and with new DMUs unlikely to be ordered now, the 150s will have routes to work on and can work on branch lines etc. The pacers are not the most popular train and are like cattle sheds to some. The 150s are better and stronger than the 142s. Anyway, couldn't 001 and 002 go to FGW to provide extra capacity there?

Given there's really 4 x 150/0s I think the best option for them is a self-contained service that requires 3 units for the standard pattern, that currently uses 2 car operation and could do with extra capacity. Huddersfield- Manchester Vic is ideal for that as it is just that plus has a couple of platforms on the line around 60m long.

I don't know if FGW or LM have any similar lines but I think FGW and Northern should be the first two options for the 3 car 150/0s as they don't have newer units with SDO unlike LM.
 
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150001

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That sounds perfect. FGW could use them as the platforms to Barnstaple from Exmouth and Paignton are fine and also around Bristol.
 

Nym

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There isn't anything stopping Northern re-forming the units (along with their own) into 3 car units again, a lot of routes around Greater Manc could do with 3/6 car units, but a lot could do with 4/6 aswell... Will just have to see how it goes.

Just hope the current 180 diagrams through Bolton can stay as 4 car minimum, maybe even up at 6 car, the stock should be available for 6 car 150s of a morning and evening peak.

Perhaps even an 8 car pacer, would fit :D

I wouldn't be unhappy with 4, 6 and 8 car pacers running round in the morning and evening peaks.
 

150001

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I wouldn't be surprised if 150001 and 002 go to northern. I would be glad if they did.
 

150222

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I don't think 142's can work in 8 car formations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wouldn't be surprised if 150001 and 002 go to northern. I would be glad if they did.



So would I. A 2 car 150 on the calder valley has insuffitient capacity but a double one would be overkill. I hope they either have 3 car 150's or more 150/153 combo's on the calder valley.
 

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Well, by my reconing, Northern is going to receive 8 units for 'additional capacity', so...

These 8 units mean that they can have 16 extra center cars without sacrificing diagrams.

Take into account now that 7 units are coming in exchange for the 180 fleet, and four units for two 156s

Lets say that these 7 extra would be two perminant 6 car formations, 1 spare, this spare is well, spare, so that makes 18 center cars.

IIRC NT currently have 18 150/1 units and 22 150/2...

Just from the extras gained by cascade, they could extend all of their current 150/1 fleet to 3 car units. With no loss of diagrams, making their now 150/0 fleet more practical as no corridor connections on 3 car units is better than on 2 car units.

Add on 150001 and 150002, and the two orphaned toiletless cars. Add them into some of the remaining units at Northern and this would give them a fleet of...

22 150/0 3 car units...

Then the remaining 150/1 and 150/2 fleet, I'm loosing count but started with 22 150/2 units, and 18 150/1 units, 20 converted (10 cascaded units)...

The total cascade being received being, 7 units for the 180s, 4 units for the 156s, and 4 units for capacity, then the extra 4 units. Sooo...

Northern get 20 units lengthened, and gain an extra 9 2 (or 6 3 car units) car units and 2 3 car units.

20 units lengthened would leave 20 units with northern at 2 car length, with 18 potential centre cars sitting about, it could be that NT would like to have a fleet of 38 3 car units and 2 2 car units. Or a mixture of both. There are some routes that can only take a 2 car unit, but a lot of routes would have 3 /6 formations as ideal.

The joyous thing being that NT has plenty of 150/2s to chop up if they want, then can have a nice big fleet of 3 car units instead of 2 car units.

I wonder if the DfT will let NT reform the units as they see fit...

Correction, it's 6 units for the 180 fleet, not 7... sorry...

Maths again...

NT will have:

18 150/1
22 150/2
18 (6 for the 180s, 4 for the 156s, 4 extra, 4 subsequent extra) 150 units.

Currently there are 48 (assuming 2*150 for 180) units worth of diagrams to cover, leaving an extra 8 units that could be chopped up, so, with the addition of the two orphaned units, all of NT's current 150/1 fleet could be re-formed to make a 150/0 fleet of 3 car units. With the addition of 150001 and 150002, would make a reasonably uniform fleet of...

20 150/0
16 150/2 (for definite)
18 unspecified 150 units.

Would mean no more actual units for Northern, but a lot of them would be longer...

Would be the extra pacers for extra units. But NT doesn't need more units for more diagrams, it needs longer diagrams, and more can be longer with 3 car units kicking about.
 
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pemma

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Would mean no more actual units for Northern, but a lot of them would be longer...

While Northern have extra services timetabled in from December e.g. more Hope Valley services, more Victoria-Lime St services so you're plan falls apart.
 

Nym

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While Northern have extra services timetabled in from December e.g. more Hope Valley services, more Victoria-Lime St services so you're plan falls apart.

Hmmm, so the extra 7 pacers will do nothing then...? And bear in mind that there are 4 car 150s kicking about at the moment that could be replaced by a 3 car 150...?
 

WatcherZero

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Northern have been struggling to meet their commitments (which they are being paid to run and penalised when they dont) on strengthening due to lack of available units (I believe their only averaging something like 85% of committed services strengthened with some routes as low as 60%). These extra units should allow them to raise the strengthening percentage, I doubt there would be much left to strengthen additional services however with new services from December.
 

knight2004

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I am being very stupid here but if i were a manager or the MD i'd be out there looking and talking and seeing what my passengers think around Manchester and Leeds and what they have to put up with every day and what they want and as long a process it is i'd be thinking of reallocation, serviceable lengths, train allowances and pathings and platform lengths and collating numbers each day on which lines.
Remember as good as 3 car units would be to those currently suffering with just 2 cars on their peak line but they would need to consider financial cost to keeping 3 cars running throughout the day and the lack of passengers on some lines out of peak and whether these trains can be used elsewhere off peak and return for the peak plus driver training etc its obviously a massive job!
One thing that's also important for example is summer usage,for example the York to Blackpool North train and the Colne to Blackpool South are ridiculously overcrowded peak and off peak on summer warm days as people go to the coast for the day, by the time the train hits Accrington there is no room at all n the North train so we all get the South train which by Blackburn is full. It's swings and roundabouts i suppose and of course i don't know much about the train industry i'm just a passenger but its a lot of observation from a lot of passengers who probably know what works well for their route
 

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Northern do need extra capacity and they could increase frequencies etc

I don't think there will be any space for more services at Piccadilly, maybe a little at Victoria (but then you hit capacity problems the moment you get to Salford). Same goes with trying to fit more paths over Stockport Viaduct/ through Bolton etc.
 

pemma

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Hmmm, so the extra 7 pacers will do nothing then...? And bear in mind that there are 4 car 150s kicking about at the moment that could be replaced by a 3 car 150...?

Can you name some examples of routes where 4 car 150s are used on that could be replaced by 3 car 150s? Remember that half of 3 car 150s wouldn't have many more seats than a 2 car 156 as they will have 3 driving cabs and 2 toilets and if you start drawing up separate diagrams for 3 car 150s with 1 toilet and 3 car 150s with 2 toilets it'll make it a nightmare from an operational viewpoint.

We're getting to the point where there are not many peak time services that can be run by a single 142 without being packed so having the majority of 142s still running around in single mode at peak times will not achieve the desired effect of less overcrowding. If around half of them run around attached to other units then we are at least making some progress towards overcrowding.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't think there will be any space for more services at Piccadilly, maybe a little at Victoria (but then you hit capacity problems the moment you get to Salford). Same goes with trying to fit more paths over Stockport Viaduct/ through Bolton etc.

Yes Piccadilly-Salford Crescent and Piccadilly-Stockport is at full capacity at peak times. The only options on those routes are longer trains, extending services or additional trains terminating short of Manchester. While for some services the longer train option has already been utilised and there is still overcrowding problems. For instance, the Buxton services are pretty much all 4 car Sprinters at peak times, yet some of them are packed.
 

simonmpoulton

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I seriously doubt theres any current overcrowding issues going to stockport at present though considering the sheer number of operators that call there:- ATW/AXC/EMT/FTPE/Northern/Virgin. If there is overcrowding then that's too many people choosing to travel on the same service.
 

pemma

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I seriously doubt theres any current overcrowding issues going to stockport at present though considering the sheer number of operators that call there:- ATW/AXC/EMT/FTPE/Northern/Virgin. If there is overcrowding then that's too many people choosing to travel on the same service.

Really? Perhaps you should go there and see the issues rather than just assuming things. Apart from the Virgin services all services have at least 95% of their seats occupied at peak times on the Stockport-Manchester section. Some are so packed that people can't board. You're also assuming that everyone boarding at Stockport wants to travel to Manchester, what about people travelling to Salford, Bolton, Warrington and Liverpool?

As I've said before there needs to be less trains arriving in Manchester from London between 07:00 and 09:30 and less departing Manchester for London between 16:30 and 18:30. You can fit two local trains in a Pendolino path some of the Pendolinos are just a waste of paths.
 

150001

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It would be a good idea to have three car sets in Northern. 150209 and 212 can just stay in 016 and 017. The one car of 210 in 003 can stay and the other 210 car in 150005 can be put in 150132 giving a completely 3 car fleet. 150202 (from 007 and 009) can be put in two of the existing 2 car 150/1 sets giving yet another 2 3 car sets.
 

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Northern would be a sensible destination for 4 x 3 car sets. The Manchester Victoria-Huddersfield service gets too many passengers for 2 car services and doubled up services are too long for some platforms, so in the lack of any units with SDO or money to spend on platform lengthening, 3 car 150s would be a good option there. The Victoria-Huddersfield requires 3 units for the standard pattern and extra at peak times.

As someone who works these, they would be perfect. There simply no more paths for an additional stopper to HUD to alleviate the overcrowding. And as you pointed out, platforms are simply too short at Mossley, Marsden and Slaithwaite for anything longer than one unit.
 
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