London midland 150's - reallocations

simonmpoulton · 12 Aug 2011

jcollins said:
Really? Perhaps you should go there and see the issues rather than just assuming things. Apart from the Virgin services all services have at least 95% of their seats occupied at peak times on the Stockport-Manchester section. Some are so packed that people can't board. You're also assuming that everyone boarding at Stockport wants to travel to Manchester, what about people travelling to Salford, Bolton, Warrington and Liverpool?

As I've said before there needs to be less trains arriving in Manchester from London between 07:00 and 09:30 and less departing Manchester for London between 16:30 and 18:30. You can fit two local trains in a Pendolino path some of the Pendolinos are just a waste of paths.

I have travelled on them before, and a good chunk of them terminate at Piccadilly. Some are busier than others i agree but the capacity is there if people would use it a bit more efficiently. If you wanted to go to Warrington or Liverpool then you would be far wiser taking the Pendo to Piccadilly and then changing onto one of the numerous additional trains that go there from Piccadilly (Or even Oxford Road) but not from Stockport. Likewise with Salford and Bolton you can take the FTPE service from Piccadilly but NOT from Stockport. What is required is better awareness of the different ways to get from A to B rather than the current attitude "lets all pile on this one because I cant be bothered to change train"

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pemma · 12 Aug 2011

simonmpoulton said:
If you wanted to go to Warrington or Liverpool then you would be far wiser taking the Pendo to Piccadilly and then changing onto one of the numerous additional trains that go there from Piccadilly (Or even Oxford Road) but not from Stockport.

Lets say passenger A works ten minutes walk from Warrington Central station and lives in Stockport. They start work at 09:30 and finish at 18:00 and are not on flexitime.

They usually catch the 08:24 Stockport - Lime St service (ex Norwich) to Warrington Central and arrive at 08:57 and in the evening they catch the 18:19 towards Norwich arriving back in Stockport at 18:54.

Instead, you suggest they catch a Pendolino to Piccadilly and another service to Warrington. In the morning there is no sensible journey option for doing that. In the evening they would depart half an hour later than they want to and their journey time would take 15 minutes longer - so why would any passenger want to arrive home 45 minutes later than they need to? There's also certainly no guarantee that a North TPE service will be quieter than a Liverpool-Norwich.

Passengers travelling between Stockport and Manchester are aware of how frequent services are. The departure screens and station announcements tell them. However, most northbound trains in the morning peak are fairly full or packed before they reach Stockport. Certain services could be given pick up and set down restrictions at Stockport but asking passengers to travel at a different time because there are insufficient carriages at the time they want to go is not the right approach.

Scotrail84 · 13 Aug 2011

Is there any chance that Scotrail will get any of these displaced classes??

150222 · 13 Aug 2011

No you've had enough

mawallace · 13 Aug 2011

Ok - so I assume

FGW will use the 150's they get on the Exter and Bristol based diagrams

Northern - I assume they will be allocated to NH and therefore be based around Manchester diagrams.

And when will this happen? How many 172's have been delviered? And how many are ocking?

pemma · 13 Aug 2011

Scotrail84 said:
Is there any chance that Scotrail will get any of these displaced classes??

Scotrail could put in a proposal to use the 180s. Scotrail had a 150 clear out a few years back and have taken on a number of extra 158s and 170s in recent years, so I imagine they would have seen 150s as a backward step anyway.

For reference, Scotrail is pretty much guaranteed to not receive anymore cascaded DMUs given the desperate need other operators have for them and electrification programs in Scotland.

Northern and TPE will still be in the greatest need for extra DMUs even after the LM cascade (based on the estimates of the number of extra carriages predicted each operator would need by 2014.)

swt_passenger · 13 Aug 2011

mawallace said:
And when will this happen? How many 172's have been delviered? And how many are ocking?

It's is already in progress - FGW have started to receive 150s.

I was about to do a quick check in the 'Class 172 Production Progress' thread for you, but then the phone went...

150222 · 13 Aug 2011

Northern 150 diagrams are not confined to the manchester area. They operate all over the north west/yorkshire.

pemma · 14 Aug 2011

150222 said:
Northern 150 diagrams are not confined to the manchester area. They operate all over the north west/yorkshire.

Northern's 150s are all allocated to the Newton Heath depot in Manchester. Generally the closer you are to Manchester the more likely you are to see one. You might be at Hull station for days and not see one, while you could be at Sheffield station for a few hours and see more than one.

theblackwatch · 14 Aug 2011

jcollins said:
Northern's 150s are all allocated to the Newton Heath depot in Manchester. Generally the closer you are to Manchester the more likely you are to see one. You might be at Hull station for days and not see one, while you could be at Sheffield station for a few hours and see more than one.

They work a number of services in Yorkshire too - they are diagrammed to work on the Harrogate line (in pairs). Regarding 3-car sets, the two Leeds-Knaresborough diagrams are both booked to be operated by a 155+153 combination so would also be ideal for a 3-car Class 150. It really is up to a TOC, PTE etc to decide to pay up take on 150001/2 and 57209/12 though - if none of them do, they'll go off lease.

150001 · 14 Aug 2011

Well, it would make sense just to take 209 and 212 and keep them in 016 and 017. 001 and 002 would be useful as well. So Northern should pay up for them.

JEPB · 14 Aug 2011

theblackwatch said:
They work a number of services in Yorkshire too - they are diagrammed to work on the Harrogate line (in pairs). Regarding 3-car sets, the two Leeds-Knaresborough diagrams are both booked to be operated by a 155+153 combination so would also be ideal for a 3-car Class 150. It really is up to a TOC, PTE etc to decide to pay up take on 150001/2 and 57209/12 though - if none of them do, they'll go off lease.

I am sure some TOC somewhere will want them, even to allow and equivalent number of Pacer vehicles to go off lease

. LM will need more trains to implement the RUS recommendation for more Tamworth and Nuneaton to Birmingham services, but I suppose they cannot make a case yet until DfT acts on the recommendation (if it does).

Class172 · 19 Aug 2011

JEPB said:
I am sure some TOC somewhere will want them, even to allow and equivalent number of Pacer vehicles to go off lease . LM will need more trains to implement the RUS recommendation for more Tamworth and Nuneaton to Birmingham services, but I suppose they cannot make a case yet until DfT acts on the recommendation (if it does).

Just order more 172s (it's so simple). Isn't it a Nuneaton/Tamworth-Birmingham-Worcester service?

WatcherZero · 1 Sep 2011

Appendix of this Doc has a good guide to some of the strengthened services due to cascade.

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...download/4128/item_8-additional_rail_capacity

sprinterguy · 2 Sep 2011

WatcherZero said:
Appendix of this Doc has a good guide to some of the strengthened services due to cascade.

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...download/4128/item_8-additional_rail_capacity

Absolutely fantastic, I've been eagerly waiting to see which services would be benefitting from extra seats following the cascade. I note a return trip for a five car 144 formation

150001 · 2 Sep 2011

Ok, I have just seen 150009 and 150007 together on the 2:46 service from Dorridge at the level crossing at Bentley Heath. However they are no longer 007 and 009. They are now 2 cars long and they have been renumbered to 107 and 109. 107 has a very neat number 1 with the right gap while 150109 has a wide gap between the 0 and 1 like 150104 or 150106. So, this is very strange as these are two of the units staying. Has anyone seen 005 back to 2 car?

So

150007 and 009 are now 150107 and 150109.
I saw 150001 and 150132 together today on the 10:46 Dorridge service. I swear 150001 was two cars although I doubt it. I had just come round the corner to see a blue two car units and 001. So who knows, the two car units could even have been 103, 118 or 110!

So, anyone else seen 3 car 150s reduced back down to 2 cars? Obviously 150202 is being prepared for Northern and sending off next week. I guess that 150005 and 150003 will be reduced to 2 cars next.

swt_passenger · 2 Sep 2011

150001 said:
So, this is very strange as these are two of the units staying. Has anyone seen 005 back to 2 car?

Whether they are staying or not, surely the whole fleet has to be reverted to two car?

LM are only retaining 6 vehicles, but they are supposed to be for use in two different places plus a spare unit, so they'll have to be reverted to 2 car as well?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

WatcherZero said:
Appendix of this Doc has a good guide to some of the strengthened services due to cascade.

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...download/4128/item_8-additional_rail_capacity

Shame that pdf has been set to prevent saving.

Just had a quick scan through the appendix, do others agree the capacity numbers suggest there'll be no 150s converted back into three car units by Northern?

DjU · 2 Sep 2011

swt_passenger said:
Whether they are staying or not, surely the whole fleet has to be reverted to two car?

LM are only retaining 6 vehicles, but they are supposed to be for use in two different places plus a spare unit, so they'll have to be reverted to 2 car as well?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Shame that pdf has been set to prevent saving.

Just had a quick scan through the appendix, do others agree the capacity numbers suggest there'll be no 150s converted back into three car units by Northern?

Nothing is stopping me saving it

WatcherZero · 2 Sep 2011

Not in the Manchester area at least.

I agree the 5 car 144 looks comical, dont imagine the designers expected that would be a formation in regular service, also a 5 car 144+142. Im surprised how easy the 150 and 156 make staggering the capacity increases to differing demand.

Edit: Presume hes refering to document assembly permissions. You can save it but its locked so you cant edit it.

DjU · 2 Sep 2011

WatcherZero said:
Not in the Manchester area at least.

I agree the 5 car 144 looks comical, dont imagine the designers expected that would be a formation in regular service, also a 5 car 144+142.

Edit: Presume hes refering to document assembly permissions. You can save it but its locked so you cant edit it.

Nothing stopping me edit, deleted etc in Acrobat Pro.

There don't appear to be any restrictions or security on file.

swt_passenger · 2 Sep 2011

WatcherZero said:
Edit: Presume hes refering to document assembly permissions. You can save it but its locked so you cant edit it.

In my pdf reader the 'save' icon is greyed out - but 'save as' on the menu worked OK, should have looked a bit further...

150001 · 2 Sep 2011

I know, personally, I think the 3 car 150s should stay 3 cars up north, and current Northern units can also become 3 car. However, it is common-sense, so it won't happen!

trains2064 · 2 Sep 2011

Believe 150202 and 150106 are next to go.

172's entry service on 5/09/11 with first working to go over 06.46 from Whitlocks End into Birmingham and 06.41 from Birmingham Snow Hill to Sratford upon Avon.

WatcherZero · 2 Sep 2011

DjU said:
Nothing stopping me edit, deleted etc in Acrobat Pro.

There don't appear to be any restrictions or security on file.

My Adobe reads the documen permissions as Document Assembly, signing and template forming set as disallowed, copying, printing, commenting, saving, form filling and page extraction are allowed.

150001 · 2 Sep 2011

It was 132 and 001. And there are'nt anyone 2 car 150s at the moment. I assume FGW will start to refurbish the 150s when they get down there? However there will be 150s on the Dorridge line for a little while longer as the 172s aren't on the Dorridge route at all next week and then will have to wait and see.

james37672 · 6 Sep 2011

150101 now with FGW.
Reported on St Phillips Marsh today.

anthony263 · 6 Sep 2011

FGW seem to be keeping the 3 + 2 seating on the class 150's that have come from London Overground/Midland. Not very goood if they are being used on long distance services such as Cardiff - Taunton/Paignton.

It seems they are only having basic work done to them ie a deep clean and new seat covers etc.

pemma · 6 Sep 2011

swt_passenger said:
Just had a quick scan through the appendix, do others agree the capacity numbers suggest there'll be no 150s converted back into three car units by Northern?

I'm surprised by the omission of the 180 diagrams. The only sensible replacement for them involves using 156s but there are very few 156s freed up by doubled up Pacer/150 combinations and Northern are losing 4x156s, so maybe it's Merseyside or the North East that'll be worse affected by the lost 156s - or there are 156s being replaced by 2 car 150s/142s in the GM area but TfGM are covering it up.

WatcherZero · 6 Sep 2011

Or you know, since this is a list of services strengthened by the Sprinter cascade the 180's dont appear. I imagine they will be replaced by 2x150 formations which is a minor seating reduction.

Nym · 6 Sep 2011

WatcherZero said:
Or you know, since this is a list of services strengthened by the Sprinter cascade the 180's dont appear. I imagine they will be replaced by 2x150 formations which is a minor seating reduction.

But a major capacity reduction!

The DaFT say that it's 7x150 for 3x180, assuming one unit unavailable per day, as is now, then one would hope that the 180 diagrams are scheduled for 3x150/2 units. Or 1 2 car + 1 3 car unit...

London midland 150's - reallocations

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