Interesting incident at LTV

strange6 · 11 Sep 2011

transportphoto said:
This video and its series may be of help to you to understand SPADS

What a super video; many thanks for that. The eye opener for me was the communication detail required for receiving instructions from the signaller. And that Signal-Platform-Signal - action phrase is now etched in my mind

I would imagine the freight driver would be more at risk from a SPAD than his passenger counterpart.

RailUK Forums

dcmbarton · 11 Sep 2011

Oh dear, I'm not trying to cause trouble! I was just interested to see whether anyone else was aware of this!

If this thread is not suitable on a forum such as this, I'm happy for it to be deleted, though I would appreciate a PM to explain why, as so far as I can see, I only asked a question which any member of the public might ask having seen a train travelling the wrong way down the main line!

strange6 · 11 Sep 2011

dcmbarton said:
Oh dear, I'm not trying to cause trouble! I was just interested to see whether anyone else was aware of this!

If this thread is not suitable on a forum such as this, I'm happy for it to be deleted, though I would appreciate a PM to explain why, as so far as I can see, I only asked a question which any member of the public might ask having seen a train travelling the wrong way down the main line!

I'm confused. What trouble have you caused? It's a perfectly good thread and a very interesting one at that.

YorkshireRider · 11 Sep 2011

I’m no expert but if the signal was red wouldn’t the platform dispatch staff have to dispatch on a red as well as the guard taking the tip on a red as well as the driver setting off on a red. I’m basing this on the signal been at the end of the platform which I assume it is if the train only got a few metres out of the station. I’m willing to be corrected by anyone more in the know but seems unlikely all that happened and therefore unlikely this was a cat A SPAD.

Old Timer · 11 Sep 2011

As I remember Lichfield Trent Valley Low Level, the Down signals are a several hundred yards north of the platforms. The only signal at the north end is that on the Chord, so this could not have been a SPaD.

dcmbarton · 11 Sep 2011

strange6 said:
I'm confused. What trouble have you caused? It's a perfectly good thread and a very interesting one at that.

I just got the impression that maybe it wasn't the done thing to ask such questions - several people had said it should be removed

mickey · 11 Sep 2011

dcmbarton said:
I just got the impression that maybe it wasn't the done thing to ask such questions - several people had said it should be removed

It would be a sad say if people couldn't ask (and then discuss) events that happened in the real world - and had an effect on the journey of potentially hundreds of passengers. As long as it doesn't identify individuals by name or turn libellous or anything like that it's perfectly ok to do so. 'Sweeping things under the carpet' helps no one.

strange6 · 11 Sep 2011

dcmbarton said:
I just got the impression that maybe it wasn't the done thing to ask such questions - several people had said it should be removed

You asked a perfectly legitimate question to a situation that you witnessed! Nothing wrong with that

bluenoxid · 11 Sep 2011

dcmbarton said:
I just got the impression that maybe it wasn't the done thing to ask such questions - several people had said it should be removed

It isn't the questions that is the problem. It is the incident and the reporting of it happening that causes the issue in somes peoples minds. The most problematic incidents are those where a distinct safety breech has taken place but management may not know about it. Yours is not such an issue because people (the managers) will know about it, but with the effects that this happens on the driver (up to 6 months off work or even loss of job), the high likelihood that he or she would read this and be unable to respond to what really happened is likely to affect their state of mind so to speak (which is already strained).

That is not to say that there are not benefits to discussing safety incidents. We can only learn from near misses (which technically is what a SPAD is) and staff on the railways can gain insight into others mistakes if an atmosphere of open communication is maintained.

Unfortunately, rail has failed to fully foster this atmosphere despite the incidents, dangerous environment and union involvement. A fragmented railway has not helped.

I wonder if some of those in the industry feel that staff at one end of the country are unable to find out about incidents at the other end of the country unless it hits CIRAS or the media?

driver9000 · 11 Sep 2011

dcmbarton said:
I just got the impression that maybe it wasn't the done thing to ask such questions - several people had said it should be removed

There is nothing wrong with asking questions, it's how we learn. The concern comes from the inclusion of the train details. Nothing wrong per se in doing so, but put yourself in the drivers shoes having been involved in an incident (who will already be feeling gutted) and then finding it online or one of your peers finding it. I know if it was me I'd find it embarrasing.

A simple edit your original posting would suffice rather than thread deletion.

Minilad · 11 Sep 2011

bluenoxid said:
It isn't the questions that is the problem. It is the incident and the reporting of it happening that causes the issue in somes peoples minds. The most problematic incidents are those where a distinct safety breech has taken place but management may not know about it. Yours is not such an issue because people (the managers) will know about it, but with the effects that this happens on the driver (up to 6 months off work or even loss of job), the high likelihood that he or she would read this and be unable to respond to what really happened is likely to affect their state of mind so to speak (which is already strained).

That is not to say that there are not benefits to discussing safety incidents. We can only learn from near misses (which technically is what a SPAD is) and staff on the railways can gain insight into others mistakes if an atmosphere of open communication is maintained.

Unfortunately, rail has failed to fully foster this atmosphere despite the incidents, dangerous environment and union involvement. A fragmented railway has not helped.

I wonder if some of those in the industry feel that staff at one end of the country are unable to find out about incidents at the other end of the country unless it hits CIRAS or the media?

This is why the Red series of DVD are in my opinion a good tool. Good reconstructions of incidents often interviewing the people who were actually involved. I gain a lot more from watching these than just the SPaD notices that go up in the notice case.
Purely from a personal point of view I do find it interesting to speak to colleagues who have had incidents, not just SPaDs but suicides, near misses and other incidents. Just to get a feel for what was going through their minds.
And in my experience most drivers will talk about these sorts of incidents given the chance.

driver9000 · 11 Sep 2011

bluenoxid said:
I wonder if some of those in the industry feel that staff at one end of the country are unable to find out about incidents at the other end of the country unless it hits CIRAS or the media?

That is true in some repects. Sometimes you don't even know what is going on at other TOCs on your region let alone the opposite end of the country unless you know people in that company. I have no idea if anything happened on the Scottish region yesterday nor do I have any means of finding out - unless I had access to the control records, which I don't. The only industry site I can find out about other companies is CIRAS and Opsweb.

XC Driver, agreed on the Red videos. I also find it useful to talk to others and generally find over time they will talk about what happened. I've learnt a lot from them too.

jaigee · 11 Sep 2011

Old Timer said:
As I remember Lichfield Trent Valley Low Level, the Down signals are a several hundred yards north of the platforms. The only signal at the north end is that on the Chord, so this could not have been a SPaD.

Perfectly correct, many a time I have been on a LM service which has been given the right away from LTV on a red (you can see the signals a few hundred yards away from the right-hand side of the coach) which it then proceeds up to slowly and waits for it to clear.

Incidentally, I can not recall seeing any platform staff at LTV, I presumed the guard gave the right away when all passengers had cleared.

The Planner · 11 Sep 2011

The Pendo would have joined the down fast immediately after the station at Lichfield North Jn. It would be approach controlled normally due to the linespeed difference and it is unlikely that the route would be set when the train arrived and would have stepped up on approach, as mentioned above.

jaigee · 11 Sep 2011

The Planner said:
The Pendo would have joined the down fast immediately after the station at Lichfield North Jn. It would be approach controlled normally due to the linespeed difference and it is unlikely that the route would be set when the train arrived and would have stepped up on approach, as mentioned above.

I was forgetting that the Pendo would have switched back to the down fast. :oops:

Knowing nothing about signalling procedure, seeing that he was rejoining the down fast on leaving the platform, should he have waited at the plarform if the aspect was red, even though the signal is a few hundred yards away, or is he is allowed to pull-up to the signal?

The Planner · 11 Sep 2011

Depends on where the track circuits/axle counters are approaching the signal, normally the track circuit has to be occupied for a certain time so it can be known the train is at the required speed for the signal to step up. I'd have thought that it would be fitted with TPWS but if the train was pulling off I doubt the activation speed is low enough to account for that.

jaigee · 11 Sep 2011

The Planner said:
The Pendo would have joined the down fast immediately after the station at Lichfield North Jn.

I always thought that it was a few hundred yards from the platform end and was protected by the aforesaid signals, or is the grey matter on strike again?

dcmbarton · 11 Sep 2011

driver9000 said:
There is nothing wrong with asking questions, it's how we learn. The concern comes from the inclusion of the train details. Nothing wrong per se in doing so, but put yourself in the drivers shoes having been involved in an incident (who will already be feeling gutted) and then finding it online or one of your peers finding it. I know if it was me I'd find it embarrasing.

A simple edit your original posting would suffice rather than thread deletion.

Well, I'm happy to change these details, but if no one actually points that out, how can I know?! So far as I was concerned, the incident could have just been caused by something on the track, a mechanical problem, a passenger taken ill etc. etc. etc. etc.

66526 · 11 Sep 2011

es373 said:
I think cat A SPAD is driver error.

It happens, could also be a driver failing to slow and come to a stop after a yellow signal.

There are a few other categories.
Cat B (I think Cat B is technical reasons) where the aspect 'bobs'.

Could have also been a Cat C where signaller has put the stick back to Red as the train is departing the station for any given reason.

I am not a driver so not very familiar with SPAD categories so if there is a driver/signaller here then feel free to correct me!

@AlterEgo.
Yes, I agree. However I am explaining the SPAD categories and since I wasn't at LTV and know nothing of the incident, I shall not make any comments towards the incident in its self.

A Cat A SPAD doesn't automatically mean it is driver error. It means the signalling has been working correctly but that for some reason the train did not stop in time for the red (could be brake failure, exceptional railhead conditions etc)

bluenoxid · 11 Sep 2011

dcmbarton said:
Well, I'm happy to change these details, but if no one actually points that out, how can I know?! So far as I was concerned, the incident could have just been caused by something on the track, a mechanical problem, a passenger taken ill etc. etc. etc. etc.

In all honesty, it is not your fault. The fault really lies with someone who responded to your post without thinking it through.

Whistler40145 · 11 Sep 2011

If I have jumped in feet first with my answers, I apologise to all concerned.

es373 · 11 Sep 2011

James 66526 said:
A Cat A SPAD doesn't automatically mean it is driver error. It means the signalling has been working correctly but that for some reason the train did not stop in time for the red (could be brake failure, exceptional railhead conditions etc)

I believe you are wrong. That would be classed as a technical SPAD.

Minilad · 11 Sep 2011

bluenoxid said:
In all honesty, it is not your fault. The fault really lies with someone who responded to your post without thinking it through.

Guess you are referring to me

Get-Pulled-Off · 11 Sep 2011

TDK said:
Not to the same extent, they will be obviously spoken to, I have had many signals go from green to red because of signaller error, the signaller will be back at work the next day I think. To be honest, a signal reverted in error is not a safety issue like a CAT A spad is.

Not even that. I've never known a signaller be pulled off duty for putting back in error on a train. I'm sure it has happened, but it's not the norm. Normally it's a case of apologise to the driver, ask if he's okay to continue, then carry on working the panel and possibly fill a report in. The line manager may speak to you about it, but this is usually just a welfare check to make sure you're not pre-occupied with something personal. Only if it's a regular occurance would it be more of an issue to a signalman.

Thankfully, I've never done it, amazingly. Most signallers have, but I've never known somoene get into a habit of doing it so I'm not sure what the procedure then is.

richw · 11 Sep 2011

XCDriver said:
Guess you are referring to me

I did think that from his post and reading back i'm assuming that he believes it shouldnt of been revealed as a SPAD.

GB · 11 Sep 2011

es373 said:
I believe you are wrong. That would be classed as a technical SPAD.

It is still categorized as a CAT A though, it just won't be attributed to the driver once the invesgiation is done.

Whistler40145 · 11 Sep 2011

I do hope the Driver is OK after this situation & it hasn't affected him in any way.

GB · 11 Sep 2011

strange6 said:
What a super video; many thanks for that. The eye opener for me was the communication detail required for receiving instructions from the signaller.

You must remember though what is in the training video is the perfect example. The comms in that part of the video does not portray the real working railway world.

the sniper · 11 Sep 2011

Old Timer said:
As I remember Lichfield Trent Valley Low Level, the Down signals are a several hundred yards north of the platforms. The only signal at the north end is that on the Chord, so this could not have been a SPaD.

I know The Planner has offered an explanation, and it's one that I fully respect, but something about this still doesn't add up to me.

Though the OP has now removed most of the facts from his post, so I may be missing something, having read the thread I take it that this has occurred on the Down slow/fast. Rather like Old Timer, I thought that the next signals north of LTV are at least 400m from the platform end, but the OP says:

and then stopped just a few metres outside the station

Even if it was the rear of the of the Pendo that was 'just a few metres outside the station', surely the front of it wouldn't have even reached the signal yet?

I haven't been there for a good while so apologies if I'm speaking rubbish, but does anyone know for sure that it was a SPAD?

S19 · 11 Sep 2011

I've just watched the SPAD Risk videos. Very interesting stuff!

The expectation on comms is the same as where I work. I even find myself repeating back when I ring up about car insurance etc :lol:

Interesting incident at LTV

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