Virgin - Longer trains to continue on busy Scotland and North Wales routes

mickey · 13 Sep 2011

Blindtraveler said:
mat, thanks. What are loadings like after chester on welsh runs? Have used those services through the trent valley but never further than crewe

Variable. Those at sensible times of the day are reasonably well loaded, particularly at holiday times (half term, summer, etc.) - it seems many people do like the fact that they do run direct. Peak commuter ones are also well used to/from Chester, but no further really than Prestatyn/Rhyl - but are definitely needed as ATW runs are crammed at this time. Those that connect with the ferry can be busy, again especially on days when airlines can get away with charging more. Otherwise it's mostly the 'retired major' types and a few students from Bangor, but not much else.

That said, only once have I been on a single voyager west of Chester where I thought a doubled unit was necessary. A single unit for the coast, doubled between Chester and Euston, is normally plenty.

RailUK Forums

Rhydgaled · 13 Sep 2011

tbtc said:
Agreed - hence my suggestion that the service west of Chester will be downgraded when the line is wired to Chester (whether Holyhead's direct London service is "dragged" Pendolinis or Voyagers via Wrexham/Shrewsbury).

That frees up a lot of Voyagers for XC

I'd say dragged Pendolinos, so ICWC can be completly rid of Voyagers. I don't think you'd need to cut the service west of Chester though, it'd only require 4 locos in service each day to run the current services as drags from Chester (falls to 3 locos if you spread the services out a bit more, (ie. less 1 hour gaps between ICWC trains but 2-hourly for much of the day), either way you'd need 5 locos daily if you don't wire to Chester)

Even if you don't electrify to Chester, 8 locos (5 running, 3 spare) is alot less diesel traction than 21 Voyagers so that has to be better for the enviroment. It also gives 9-car trains that passengers can spread out along, with doubled up Voyagers one set could be near-empty and the other crammed full. There is of course the argument that you don't normally need 9-car sets beyond Chester, but you'd require special stock to have it both ways.

The north Wales coast doesn't have a linespeed in access of 100mph. Therefore a non-streamlined cab (with a corridor connection) could lead a train. So, the special stock would have a streamlined driving coach at the south end, then several ordinary coaches, then a pair of driving coaches connected with blunt, corridor-fitted, cabs, then more coaches topped with a streamlined 125mph locomotive. At Chester the electric loco would be swapped for some sort of diesel which would haul the north end of the train (the train split at the blunt driving vehicles) leaving one of blunt driving vehicles, the streamlined driving trailer and half of the other coaches behind.

Considering that such a train would have to tilt I think it'd be much simpler, and perhaps cheaper, just to drag 9-car Pendolinos from Crewe or Chester to Holyhead.

tbtc · 13 Sep 2011

Rhydgaled said:
I'd say dragged Pendolinos, so ICWC can be completly rid of Voyagers. I don't think you'd need to cut the service west of Chester though, it'd only require 4 locos in service each day to run the current services as drags from Chester (falls to 3 locos if you spread the services out a bit more, (ie. less 1 hour gaps between ICWC trains but 2-hourly for much of the day), either way you'd need 5 locos daily if you don't wire to Chester)

Even if you don't electrify to Chester, 8 locos (5 running, 3 spare) is alot less diesel traction than 21 Voyagers so that has to be better for the enviroment. It also gives 9-car trains that passengers can spread out along, with doubled up Voyagers one set could be near-empty and the other crammed full. There is of course the argument that you don't normally need 9-car sets beyond Chester, but you'd require special stock to have it both ways.

The north Wales coast doesn't have a linespeed in access of 100mph. Therefore a non-streamlined cab (with a corridor connection) could lead a train. So, the special stock would have a streamlined driving coach at the south end, then several ordinary coaches, then a pair of driving coaches connected with blunt, corridor-fitted, cabs, then more coaches topped with a streamlined 125mph locomotive. At Chester the electric loco would be swapped for some sort of diesel which would haul the north end of the train (the train split at the blunt driving vehicles) leaving one of blunt driving vehicles, the streamlined driving trailer and half of the other coaches behind.

Considering that such a train would have to tilt I think it'd be much simpler, and perhaps cheaper, just to drag 9-car Pendolinos from Crewe or Chester to Holyhead.

Running a 390 every couple of hours would be a massive capacity increase though

Gareth Marston · 13 Sep 2011

Basic argument that some posters have made is that the North Wales Coast has somehow seen a disproportionate increase in services commensurate to its population/usage figures and that this has somehow happened at the expense of services in North of England.

Looking at my National Rail tt for Winter 03/04 starting Sep 03 i.e before the commencement of ATW. LLandudno Jnc to Chester saw 38 trains on a weekday, the current tt sees 43.

It seems North Wales Coast was well populated with services before Welsh franchise so evidence of underhand Celtic plot seems thin. The franchise was let on no growth, the increase being down to VT. The view from the North of England that North Wales is somehow over provided is something that brings a wry smile to me as its a wide held belief of many in Wales that everything is Cardiff centric and the rest of us have crumbs from the table! Try going down my local and convincing the regulars otherwise.

jones_bangor · 13 Sep 2011

tbtc said:
Agreed - hence my suggestion that the service west of Chester will be downgraded when the line is wired to Chester (whether Holyhead's direct London service is "dragged" Pendolinis or Voyagers via Wrexham/Shrewsbury).

That frees up a lot of Voyagers for XC

Looks like Voyagers will soon be bi-mode, making them even more ideal for North Wales / Chester operation, invalidating your argument somewhat!!

Alternating with 390s for Chester only services, we'll be seeing Voyagers west of Chester for a long time yet, but XC may get a few spares.

mickey · 13 Sep 2011

Gareth Marston said:
Basic argument that some posters have made is that the North Wales Coast has somehow seen a disproportionate increase in services commensurate to its population/usage figures and that this has somehow happened at the expense of services in North of England.
[...]
It seems North Wales Coast was well populated with services before Welsh franchise so evidence of underhand Celtic plot seems thin. The franchise was let on no growth, the increase being down to VT. The view from the North of England that North Wales is somehow over provided is something that brings a wry smile to me as its a wide held belief of many in Wales that everything is Cardiff centric and the rest of us have crumbs from the table! Try going down my local and convincing the regulars otherwise.

That's not quite what I said...

I agreed with the other posters that doubling certain voyagers was providing unnecessary extra capacity, but would never say that north Wales had too much capacity - many of the ATW units are too small for the route they serve and the number of people they carry. IMO most daytime trains on the coast route should be 4 carriages minimum, with the odd 5-car voyager to provide extra capacity (and the only premium capacity*) for through running to London. It's when VT start talking of 10-car trains on a regular basis that I get confused.

*Excluding the WAG train, which is somewhat underused in 1st.

ainsworth74 · 13 Sep 2011

jones_bangor said:
Looks like Voyagers will soon be bi-mode, making them even more ideal for North Wales / Chester operation, invalidating your argument somewhat!!

So far the only mention in a possible contract is for the 57 XC Voyagers to receive pantograph vehicles, there is no mention of VTs 221s getting them and let's not forget that this contract has not actually been agreed to yet.

jones_bangor · 13 Sep 2011

ainsworth74 said:
So far the only mention in a possible contract is for the 57 XC Voyagers to receive pantograph vehicles, there is no mention of VTs 221s getting them and let's not forget that this contract has not actually been agreed to yet.

It seems inconceivable that VT's 221s will not be getting them - seeing as some make 100% runs under the wires.....whilst some XC trains run under very few wires.....

ainsworth74 · 13 Sep 2011

jones_bangor said:
It seems inconceivable that VT's 221s will not be getting them - seeing as some make 100% runs under the wires.....whilst some XC trains run under very few wires.....

Yet the proposed contract does not include them. I agree that it would be foolish not to install them on VT's 221s and possibly even on to EMT's 222s but so far it is only the 57 XC 220s/221s that are slated to receive them.

tbtc · 14 Sep 2011

Gareth Marston said:
Basic argument that some posters have made is that the North Wales Coast has somehow seen a disproportionate increase in services commensurate to its population/usage figures and that this has somehow happened at the expense of services in North of England.

Looking at my National Rail tt for Winter 03/04 starting Sep 03 i.e before the commencement of ATW. LLandudno Jnc to Chester saw 38 trains on a weekday, the current tt sees 43.

It seems North Wales Coast was well populated with services before Welsh franchise so evidence of underhand Celtic plot seems thin. The franchise was let on no growth, the increase being down to VT. The view from the North of England that North Wales is somehow over provided is something that brings a wry smile to me as its a wide held belief of many in Wales that everything is Cardiff centric and the rest of us have crumbs from the table! Try going down my local and convincing the regulars otherwise.

The North Wales coast line has had pretty big improvements since privatisation, at a time when much of the rest of Wales is stuck with the same type of stock it had under British Rail.

I remember the days of 101s at Llandudno, class 47s on the services from Manchester to North Wales, all post privatisation (when First North Western were the TOC).

Nowadays a significant number of services west of Chester are run by modern units the 175s and the five coach Voyagers. There are more services from North Wales to London, more services to Cardiff (used to be only one a day under Wales & West), a more regular service to Birmingham (via Wrexham now, not via Stafford).

All these improvements, despite the fact that the ferry market at Holyhead has significantly shrunk since privatisations, as rail has lost out to low cost flights.

Yet, whilst nowhere on the North Wales coast is particularly large (even in Welsh terms), much bigger places in the south are stuck with the Pacers and 150s that theyve had for a generation. In fact the only new type of train on the Valley Lines part of ATW since privatisation is the Class 121 for the Cardiff Bay shuttle. You'd have to be

Is North Wales really only getting "crumbs from the table" of a "Cardiff-centric" transport policy? Try telling that to someone on the Valley lines...

jones_bangor · 14 Sep 2011

tbtc said:
Yet, whilst nowhere on the North Wales coast is particularly large (even in Welsh terms), much bigger places in the south are stuck with the Pacers and 150s that theyve had for a generation. In fact the only new type of train on the Valley Lines part of ATW since privatisation is the Class 121 for the Cardiff Bay shuttle. You'd have to be

Is North Wales really only getting "crumbs from the table" of a "Cardiff-centric" transport policy? Try telling that to someone on the Valley lines...

You just can't seem to grasp the concept that North Wales stations have large catchment areas, even if the towns served are themselves quite small.

I think the issue on the Valley lines is that the stock is not life expired, unlike the class 101s and 47s (and 37s) you referred to serving North Wales in the nineties and noughties. I'm sure once the operational life of the 14xs and 150s in South Wales occurs, then more appropriate stock may be procured (probably by WG rather than the useless DfT).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ainsworth74 said:
Yet the proposed contract does not include them. I agree that it would be foolish not to install them on VT's 221s and possibly even on to EMT's 222s but so far it is only the 57 XC 220s/221s that are slated to receive them.

Well, I suppose if DfT officials are involved, who knows......!!

Gareth Marston · 14 Sep 2011

mickey said:
That's not quite what I said...

I agreed with the other posters that doubling certain voyagers was providing unnecessary extra capacity, but would never say that north Wales had too much capacity - many of the ATW units are too small for the route they serve and the number of people they carry. IMO most daytime trains on the coast route should be 4 carriages minimum, with the odd 5-car voyager to provide extra capacity (and the only premium capacity*) for through running to London. It's when VT start talking of 10-car trains on a regular basis that I get confused.

*Excluding the WAG train, which is somewhat underused in 1st.

Sorry theirs another post about changing North Wales services in the erroneous believe that theirs so much spare stock floating around west of Chester you could solve Northern Rails overcrowding crisis.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

tbtc said:
The North Wales coast line has had pretty big improvements since privatisation, at a time when much of the rest of Wales is stuck with the same type of stock it had under British Rail.

I remember the days of 101s at Llandudno, class 47s on the services from Manchester to North Wales, all post privatisation (when First North Western were the TOC).

Nowadays a significant number of services west of Chester are run by modern units the 175s and the five coach Voyagers. There are more services from North Wales to London, more services to Cardiff (used to be only one a day under Wales & West), a more regular service to Birmingham (via Wrexham now, not via Stafford).

All these improvements, despite the fact that the ferry market at Holyhead has significantly shrunk since privatisations, as rail has lost out to low cost flights.

Yet, whilst nowhere on the North Wales coast is particularly large (even in Welsh terms), much bigger places in the south are stuck with the Pacers and 150s that theyve had for a generation. In fact the only new type of train on the Valley Lines part of ATW since privatisation is the Class 121 for the Cardiff Bay shuttle. You'd have to be

Is North Wales really only getting "crumbs from the table" of a "Cardiff-centric" transport policy? Try telling that to someone on the Valley lines...

North Wales Coast at privatization was being run by an awful lot 1960's & 1970's stock - which made it attractive to enthusiasts but you could say bar Isle of Wight it was at the bottom of the rolling stock replacement cycle outside of 3rd rail land. That it got a lot of brand new stock is probably more down to the way privatization works than anything underhand by the Welsh to spend £ at the North of England's expense. The 175's were ordered by FNW as a franchise commitment and initially were split with NW England seeing over half of them. Alstom built the maintenance depot at Chester...it made sense to keep the small non standard fleet at one depot with one operator.

I'm not saying I agree with the view everything is Cardiff Centric but merely stating its a widely held belief. Looking at my Winter 03/04 tt theirs no Vale of Glamorgan trains, no Ebbw Vale trains and frequencies to Aberdare/Merthyr have doubled since then so has ATW qty of 150/1 stock. Most peak trains into Cdf from valleys are now 4 car. The Valleys have some of the lowest fares in the UK.

route:oxford · 14 Sep 2011

Have reviewed the thread so far, hopefully I haven't missed it...

Are any weekend services from Brum to Edinburgh or Glasgow operated by Pendolino?

I have family travelling from Oxford to Stirling this weekend, they'd normally take the XC service to York and change to the Highland Chieftan - but this week it is bus replacement service from Newcastle to Edinburgh and they'd rather stick with the trains.

merlodlliw · 15 Sep 2011

I was at Rhyl yesterday, so I thought Id have a look at the ten coach Vt(ex Euston 0910) so went to the station, my loading at around 15% theory was about spot on, with what appeared hundreds of seats vacant & still in September, I am still amazed they choose to lengthen this train, which was never full in the peak season of July & August.
The quote below from VTs media office shows no market research was done for the 0910 service

( The busiest trains between London Euston and Holyhead will double in length from 256 to 512 seats on Mondays to Fridays.) Two errors its one train & not by any means the busiest
Bob

IanXC · 15 Sep 2011

tbtc said:
Agreed - hence my suggestion that the service west of Chester will be downgraded when the line is wired to Chester (whether Holyhead's direct London service is "dragged" Pendolinis or Voyagers via Wrexham/Shrewsbury).

That frees up a lot of Voyagers for XC

Or, wire to Chester and make the ICWC a completely electric franchise. Holyhead services become (with appropriate stock) an extension of the current ATW services which currently go as far as Birmingham International anyway.

merlodlliw · 15 Sep 2011

IanXC said:
Or, wire to Chester and make the ICWC a completely electric franchise. Holyhead services become (with appropriate stock) an extension of the current ATW services which currently go as far as Birmingham International anyway.

Its an idea, but going via Birmingham puts over an hour on the journey,and with luck if it did happen ATW will be long gone, also the All Wales franchise as it will be called, if some at WAG have their way, wont want their trains going to London. Already Chester/Shrewsbury & Hereford hub stations are managed from Cardiff(WAG/ATW) plus also every small station between Cardiff & Holyhead.

However I dont see DFT letting go of IC services.

Butts · 15 Sep 2011

merlodlliw said:
Its an idea, but going via Birmingham puts over an hour on the journey,and with luck if it did happen ATW will be long gone, also the All Wales franchise as it will be called, if some at WAG have their way, wont want their trains going to London. Already Chester/Shrewsbury & Hereford hub stations are managed from Cardiff(WAG/ATW) plus also every small station between Cardiff & Holyhead.

However I dont see DFT letting go of IC services.

Will it be called Welshrail aka Scotrail

merlodlliw · 15 Sep 2011

Butts said:
Will it be called Welshrail aka Scotrail

who knows, WAG will probably pay a crony to invent a name, Walesrail comes to mind,

Bob

Butts · 15 Sep 2011

merlodlliw said:
who knows, WAG will probably pay a crony to invent a name, Walesrail comes to mind,

Bob

Any other suggestions.....

WatcherZero · 15 Sep 2011

Cymru Rail, they will make sure to use the Welsh.

anthony263 · 15 Sep 2011

I like Walesrail, how about a return of the old valley lines livery as well?

Maybe the WAG would then make better use out of the loco hauled stock that they currently hire if they are still available in 2018

Butts · 15 Sep 2011

WatcherZero said:
Cymru Rail, they will make sure to use the Welsh.

Tren Cymru ?

Blindtraveler · 15 Sep 2011

green dragon express

Rhydgaled · 16 Sep 2011

anthony263 said:
I like Walesrail, how about a return of the old valley lines livery as well?

Maybe the WAG would then make better use out of the loco hauled stock that they currently hire if they are still available in 2018

I don't think WalesRail works as a name. TrawsCambria (when Traws is pronounced, incorrectly, the way I do) now that sounds good. Perhaps TrawsCymru for both rail and coaches, and TrawsCambria for the routes that stay with buses.

Assuming WAG take over the franchise as a not-for-profit company as they say they are going to then I'd like to see the following liveries on the fleet:

Class 150 - Local Livery (based on ValleyLines)
Class 153 (though perhaps swap all 8 of them and 4 150s for 8 156s) - Local Livery (see attached photoshoped image - original from here.)
Class 377 (or an updated version of it, owned by WAG not leased, much cheaper in the long run that way) - Local Livery
Class 158 - 'Alphaline' express livery, basicly the livery on the refurbished sets with bluer doors and minus the Arriva circle swipe (see attached photoshoped image)
Class 57 push-pull set - TrawsCymru livery (based on Alphaline Livery above, just swap the Alphaline logos for TrawsCymru ones)
Class 175 - ?, TrawsCymru I guess, but they might look slightly less bland in the local livery

merlodlliw · 16 Sep 2011

Only point if WAG take over the Franchise as a N F P trust Company, they will need new people at the top, the ATW HQ crowd at land of leather need not apply ,but we shall see.
I hope it will not be jobs for the boys & girls of the crony brigade which seems rampant in Cardiff Bay.

I also wonder what colour & logos we may expect to see on the Arriva WAGBUS shuttle Wrexham to Chester Station

Bob

tbtc · 16 Sep 2011

merlodlliw said:
if WAG take over the Franchise

...then thats bad news for the "...and Borders" part of the franchise (given that we know the WAG don't want the people of Hereford using their posh express...)

Greenback · 16 Sep 2011

We can always hope that there is a new, more mature attitude in the Welsh Geovernment!

tbtc · 16 Sep 2011

Greenback said:
We can always hope that there is a new, more mature attitude in the Welsh Geovernment!

We can.

I'd hope that the Scottish Parliament can show them how to do it - funding new trains, funding reopenings, but not tinkering with services.

Sadly the geographical nature of the Wales and Borders franchise means that its not a simple "self contained" fit between the TOC boundaries and the WAG remit (unless Chester, Shrewsbury and Hereford get to elect members to the WAG :lol:

)

Greenback · 16 Sep 2011

It's not, which is why the WG need to remember that they are serving areas outside Wales with the franchise.

Now that Plaid are no longer in power, it might be easier for those in Cardiff Bay to focus on places that are not Welsh Nationalist heartlands!

(I speak as a pragmatic Nationalist rather than an isolationist! I recognise that even an independent Wales would still need good links with its neighbour!)

sprinterguy · 16 Sep 2011

Rhydgaled said:
[*]Class 153 (though perhaps swap all 8 of them and 4 150s for 8 156s) - Local Livery (see attached photoshoped image - original from here.)

It'd be better if ATW got eight 150s in exchange for losing their 153s, instead of creating another small fleet, this time of 156s. If FGWs' 165s move to Bristol & the West Country following electrification then FGW should have more than enough slack in their local fleet to allow the loss of eight 150s to ATW while gaining eight 153s (Even assuming that FGWs' eight 143s move to ATW), as well as helping to consolidate the different classes between fewer operators.

I'd love to see a variation on Valley Lines livery introduced as a "local" livery (Unlikely, I know) for the future All-Wales franchise, which would cover everything except 158s, 175s and any loco-hauled stock which would receive the Executive livery that is being introduced across the refurbished 158 fleet and is already carried by the WAG Express.

Virgin - Longer trains to continue on busy Scotland and North Wales routes

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Forum Staff

Member

Forum Staff

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Emeritus Moderator

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Attachments

Established Member

Veteran Member

Emeritus Moderator

Veteran Member

Emeritus Moderator

Established Member