• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Virgin Franchise Extended

Status
Not open for further replies.

whhistle

On Moderation
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
2,636
I think the government should take control of the WCML like they did with the ECML and bring back the old Intercity franchise. The railway worked better under that guise and i will be honest.... The trains they used back then were a lot more attractive than the Pendolino's and Voyagers of today lol

Troll is big troll :(
The problem is, the people who ran the WCML section of British rail are probably dead. You must try and see it from a rail commuter, new trains = good. Old trains = bad.
However, I do agree that the Government would be better bringing things back in house. A lot cheaper I should think, in the long run.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Joined
9 Jul 2011
Messages
777
Now that the problem of how and under what terms the Pendolino extension is carried out, has been resolved; thoughts really ought to move on to what happens post December 2012. It's only a year away!

The other thing to note, is that in this extension period, for the first time the WCML franchisee will be paying a premium to the DfT for the privilege of running their services.

I should think it's pretty obvious that the next WCML intercity franchise contract will require premium payments to be made, based on other similar deals struck elsewhere. But what service and capacity improvements will be required or offered as part of the deal?

Is there a good case for the remainder of the Pendo fleet to undergo lengthening ?
Also, how strong is the case for lengthening or replacing the Super Voyagers on the Birmingham to Scotland and Manchester routes?


.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
Also, how strong is the case for lengthening or replacing the Super Voyagers on the Birmingham to Scotland and Manchester routes?

Not very strong at all in the case of replacement in the early years, because DfT have made section 54 guarantees to the Roscos, that the Pendolinos have to be paid for by the new franchisee until 2022, and the Voyagers until 2016, whether they are used or not...
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
But what service and capacity improvements will be required or offered as part of the deal?
There is a minimum service requirment that specifies first, last and minimum number of calls per day, this can be met by keeping the current timetable but the bidders will not be forced to do so, they can submit their own proposals but will still of course be required to meet the minimum service requirement.
 

Electrostar

Member
Joined
18 May 2009
Messages
312
If the new carriages are delivered during the course of the extension but before the new franchisee is announced will they be in all-over white to reduce the cost of rebranding should Virgin lose?

As for the post about the fleet being boring. Sure as enthusiasts we all loved seeing 86s, 87s, 90s and moaned that DVTs did away with the empty carriage movements of the 82s and 83s but that's progress. We now have a high-speed line operated with crash-worthy units and a reduction in journey times.

In the first few years of the franchise pre-Pendolino and track improvement Virgin Trains meant delays, cancellations and poor service. They've turned it around but that's not to say they can't do better. Every business can.

And yes I'd prefer larger windows and seats that line up but if not having those protects me in an accident then hats-off to Virgin for choosing the Pendolino.
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
If the new carriages are delivered during the course of the extension but before the new franchisee is announced will they be in all-over white to reduce the cost of rebranding should Virgin lose?
I haven't seen it confirmed but it was said in another thread that they are to be delivered in what is very close to Virgin livery minus the Virgin branding.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
I haven't seen it confirmed but it was said in another thread that they are to be delivered in what is very close to Virgin livery minus the Virgin branding.

That's exactly what they did with 390054 - which wasn't delivered for Virgin use either, when new.
 

TrainFanSam

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2011
Messages
17
Troll is big troll :(
The problem is, the people who ran the WCML section of British rail are probably dead. You must try and see it from a rail commuter, new trains = good. Old trains = bad.
However, I do agree that the Government would be better bringing things back in house. A lot cheaper I should think, in the long run.

Who is a troll?? lol
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
In fact apart from a couple of exceptions they were all lengthened months ago.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
15,823
Location
East Anglia
From an enthisiasts point of view the WCML may not seem as interesting as it did in BR days but the passengers are voting with their feet with record numbers travelling. I find it all quite exciting with faster & more frequent services. Destinations such as Chester are recieving a best ever service with Manchester B Birmingham practically turn up & go (with open tickets of course). Next ramp up to hourly to Glasgow & possibly a return to Blackpool are all very positive. I would like to see Edinburgh served perhaps 3/4 times daily from Euston with maybe more Preston only Glasgow trains. This will no doubt be a low priority for any available Pendos.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,048
Location
Macclesfield
Can I ask why it was decided to have 9 and 11 car sets - rather than lengthening the whole lot to 10 cars?
As I've heard it, the Pendolinos are essentially two half sets joined together. The additional carriage that was inserted into 390001-034 to bring them up to 9-car sets and was included in 390035-053 from new was an unpowered trailer vehicle that was inserted in the middle between the two halves.

With the programme to bring thirty one of the Pendolinos up to 11-car length, one of the additional carriages has to be a motor vehicle to avoid the power to weight ratio dropping too substantially. The two new vehicles, a TSO and an MSO, are to be inserted into the sets on one side of the centrally located TSO vehicle, so that the new MSO will become the centre vehicle in the train, sandwiched between two TSOs, keeping both half sets "balanced". I believe, though I don't know for sure, that the new MSO has its' own transformer gear, though I might well be wrong on that point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They shouldnt need to extend the platforms at stations like Birmingham New Street and Carlisle anyway, they're already long enough lol
That's true, but there's plenty of other stations that do require lengthening. I've noticed that the north end of the island platform at Wolverhampton is being extended at the moment.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,771
Will the MS have disabled seating/loo like the other two MS, or is two so equipped considered enough?
 

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,221
Not bad, not bad, but they really should have lengthened ALL of the Pendolinos to 11 carriages. Does anyone know if the extra 2 carriages will increase energy consumption significantly? Glasgow>London, Liverpool>London and Birmingham>Scotland are the routes most in need of 11-car Pendolinos (and the Super Voyagers displaced on the Birmingham>Scotland route can be used to strengthen services on the Chester>London route before it is electrified), but I am 99.99% sure that the Pendolinos will continue to get busier and busier, and that people will eventually wonder why they didn't extend them all!

Having a mixture of short and long trains of the same class (or, in some cases, all short trains of the same class!) has negative effects for many TOC's, such as ATW, EMT, TPE and XC.

Regarding the franchise itself, I am not at all surprised that is has been extended, as Virgin are doing a decent enough job and the DfT probably don't want a new operator to wreak havoc during the Olympics!
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
Not bad, not bad, but they really should have lengthened ALL of the Pendolinos to 11 carriages. Does anyone know if the extra 2 carriages will increase energy consumption significantly?
Even if there is an increase in energy consumption it may well result in lower net CO2 emissions as more seats are available for people to transfer from air.
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
Regarding the franchise itself, I am not at all surprised that is has been extended, as Virgin are doing a decent enough job and the DfT probably don't want a new operator to wreak havoc during the Olympics!

So you're confident that Abellio Greater Anglia won't be wreaking havoc when they start up in four months' time?
 

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,221
So you're confident that Abellio Greater Anglia won't be wreaking havoc when they start up in four months' time?

A new operator is likely to have teething problems, so no, I'm not very confident that AGA (they should call themselves that ;)) will be sailing smoothly during the Olympics. :|

At the very least, Virgin have been doing a better job than NXEA. ;) Can you even imagine the DfT giving NXEA a franchise extension!? :lol:
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,048
Location
Macclesfield
Does anyone know if the extra 2 carriages will increase energy consumption significantly?
Well, the traction motors of the new MSO will require an additional 850kW of power, plus with the added weight of the additional TSO to lug about then the traction motors throughout the train will have to work a bit harder, too. And of course there's also the extra electricity needed to power the auxillaries such as lights and air-con.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
There is a minimum service requirment that specifies first, last and minimum number of calls per day, this can be met by keeping the current timetable but the bidders will not be forced to do so, they can submit their own proposals but will still of course be required to meet the minimum service requirement.

The Network Rail consultation document on the WCML put forward proposals but stated that the bidders will be invited to bid as they see fit. For instance, the proposed Blackpool to London service was mentioned but the bidders do not have to run a Blackpool service. In theory they can put forward a case for any enhancements they see fit whether proposed by Network Rail or not.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,048
Location
Macclesfield
Glasgow>London, Liverpool>London and Birmingham>Scotland are the routes most in need of 11-car Pendolinos (and the Super Voyagers displaced on the Birmingham>Scotland route can be used to strengthen services on the Chester>London route before it is electrified), but I am 99.99% sure that the Pendolinos will continue to get busier and busier, and that people will eventually wonder why they didn't extend them all!
Birmingham to Scotland does not need eleven car Pendolinos. Changing from five car trains to eleven car trains (More than doubling the capacity in both first and standard class!) would be a massive jump in capacity. 9-car Pendos would do just fine on Birmingham to Scotland.
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
In theory they can put forward a case for any enhancements they see fit whether proposed by Network Rail or not.
Yes but there is no requirement for them to do so, only that they meet the minimum service requirement set by the DfT. This can be done by keeping the current timetable.
 

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,221
Birmingham to Scotland does not need eleven car Pendolinos. Changing from five car trains to eleven car trains (More than doubling the capacity in both first and standard class!) would be a massive jump in capacity. 9-car Pendos would do just fine on Birmingham to Scotland.

9-car Pendolinos will not do "just fine" on the Birmingham to Scotland route. They have just 294 Standard Class seats, compared to a Super Voyager which has 236 Standard Class seats. That's not a huge jump in capacity! I traveled on a Pendolino to Edinburgh earlier (between Birmingham and Crewe) and almost every seat was taken in Standard Class. If a Super Voyager was running that service, it would be a squeeze to fit everyone into the train!

I appreciate that not every train on this route needs to be an 11-car Pendolino (morning services to Birmingham are fairly quiet for example, on a Super Voyager), but some services to Edinburgh can get packed after Crewe.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,048
Location
Macclesfield
9-car Pendolinos will not do "just fine" on the Birmingham to Scotland route. They have just 294 Standard Class seats, compared to a Super Voyager which has 236 Standard Class seats. That's not a huge jump in capacity! I traveled on a Pendolino to Edinburgh earlier (between Birmingham and Crewe) and almost every seat was taken in Standard Class. If a Super Voyager was running that service, it would be a squeeze to fit everyone into the train!

I appreciate that not every train on this route needs to be an 11-car Pendolino (morning services to Birmingham are fairly quiet for example, on a Super Voyager), but some services to Edinburgh can get packed after Crewe.
No, it's not a huge jump in capacity from 5-car 221s to 9-car 390s, but it's a fairly acceptable one. The Birmingham to Scotland services that I've travelled on, all of which have been Voyagers, have sometimes been full and standing (Evening peak off Birmingham): The numbers on board suggest to me that with a 9-car Pendolino these services would merely be full.

(Initially did my maths wrong on the total standard class capacity of a Super Voyager admittedly: An eleven car Pendolino will be round about a doubling of standard class capacity compared to that of a 221)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top