Stranraer

Xenophon PCDGS · 31 Oct 2011

ashworth said:
The fares on the route are very expensive for local journeys. Was on holiday near Barrhill a few years ago and didn't use the line because of inconvenient timings and high fares.

Looking at two stations outward from Stranraer, the Anytime singles are:-

Barrhill.......£ 7.70

Girvan.......£11.90

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kylemore · 31 Oct 2011

Liam said:
It's such a shame to see a once major port reduced to a complete backwater. Remember up until about 20 years ago Stranraer had a direct sleeper service to Euston. The line South of Girvan will probably close within the next 10-20 years.

Would love to see another ferry operator get hold of the port but I presume Stena will have made sure to sabotage that in advance.
The greed factor (sorry, efficiency) has made the ferry operators go for the largest vessels which is the official excuse for abandoning Stranraer (along with the marginal time savings).
The crossing in terms of exposure and journey time (to Larne) is similar to say Calmac's Ullapool-Stornoway route, five or six "Isle of Lewis" size boats with basic catering and therefore crew, shuttling back and forth could offer an hourly round the clock service.
It would be "turn up and go" at standard basic fares, a totally different concept from the P&O/Stena business model, but who says they've got it right?
With say a two-hourly clockface rail service from Glasgow at reasonable fares (no more than a £10 each way) what a transport asset to both Scotland and Ireland that would be!
Crewed locally in Stranraer and Larne preferably run as a community business it would both give the P&O/Stena shysters a run for their money and be an economic mainstay for the local economies with profits re-invested locally instead of dissappearing off to the middle east or Sweden!
An impossible dream?

ajdunlop · 31 Oct 2011

I was kind of hoping now Stena operate the Birkenhead-Belfast route that they would introduce this as a Rail&Sail option. It would certainly make getting from the north of England to the north of Ireland easier. Obviously if going on the night sailing births would be extra. I think the ToCs and ferry companies involved are missing out, although Rail&Sail has nearly been killed by cheap flights I suspect there has been more interest recently with flight prices increasing considerably, more awareness of the impact on the environment and the pain of dealing with airport security and luggage charges. All that is needed is a bit more coordination between the companies involved and better information and advertisement.

yorksrob · 31 Oct 2011

ashworth said:
The fares on the route are very expensive for local journeys. Was on holiday near Barrhill a few years ago and didn't use the line because of inconvenient timings and high fares.

I've noticed this on a few routes near to me as well.

The perfect opportunity for some decent marketing and maybe some imaginative rover fares for the route :idea:

Blindtraveler · 1 Nov 2011

it wouldnt surprise me if the first move in the decline of the rail route would be the end of direct journeys from Glasgow with austomers having to change at Ayre for stations to Glasgow. This could potentially make the service a lower use of resources with only 1 unit and appropriate crewe trundling up and down all day. Havent looked at this propperly but what would this do for journeytime?

Buttsy · 1 Nov 2011

At present, don't most services go via Kilmarnock and have advertised earlier arrivals in Glasgow by changing at Ayr?

I would expect any shortening of the service to run to Kilmarnock rather than stop short at Ayr so Barrasie - Kilmarnock doesn't go through closure procedures.

Blindtraveler · 1 Nov 2011

unsure, as I dont know the station how well could kilmarnoc handle terminaters in that direction?

tbtc · 1 Nov 2011

Blindtraveler said:
unsure, as I dont know the station how well could kilmarnoc handle terminaters in that direction?

IIRC there are two "through" platforms on the GWS plus two bays that trains from Ayr/Glasgow could use.

All you need of 3x 153:

Hourly Kilmarnock - Ayr - Girvan
Bi-hourly Girvan - Stranraer

Both clockface service, focussed around the locals needs, rather than the ferries etc.

Regular Glasgow connections at Ayr and Killie...

Blindtraveler · 2 Nov 2011

makes sense to me!

Bittern · 2 Nov 2011

I'm assuming they have, but have TS gave much thought into opening a station in the town to serve the town?

kylemore · 2 Nov 2011

This is all very well but where is the "local demand" to come from?
Consider this - Oban, roughly the same distance/journey time supports 3/4 trains a day.
Oban is an attractive and vibrant centre, the gateway to the Western Isles and one of the most Beautiful tourist areas in Scotland.
Stranraer is a fairly depressed town, a Gateway no more thanks to Stena. Yes it has potential but it will need huge effort to realise it.
And forget the public bodies it will require passionate dynamic individuals with money and ideas.
Generations in the area have come to see the car as transport, the rest who can't afford that depend on the bus, the railway has survived because of the ferry traffic (albeit declining over the years) and the fact that rail closures have been seen as politically unacceptable.

tbtc · 2 Nov 2011

kylemore said:
This is all very well but where is the "local demand" to come from?
Consider this - Oban, roughly the same distance/journey time supports 3/4 trains a day.
Oban is an attractive and vibrant centre, the gateway to the Western Isles and one of the most Beautiful tourist areas in Scotland.
Stranraer is a fairly depressed town, a Gateway no more thanks to Stena. Yes it has potential but it will need huge effort to realise it.
And forget the public bodies it will require passionate dynamic individuals with money and ideas.
Generations in the area have come to see the car as transport, the rest who can't afford that depend on the bus, the railway has survived because of the ferry traffic (albeit declining over the years) and the fact that rail closures have been seen as politically unacceptable.

I take your point, but the difference (to me) is that there are some reasonable sized towns between Stranraer and Glasgow (hence my idea of running a "shuttle" to Kilmarnock via Ayr), whilst there's very little population on the West Highland line between Helensburgh and Oban.

I'd much rather have a day in Oban than Stranraer though (although as a supporter of a Third Division side, I've had many more afternoons in Stranraer)

rail-britain · 2 Nov 2011

Buttsy said:
I would expect any shortening of the service to run to Kilmarnock rather than stop short at Ayr so Barrasie - Kilmarnock doesn't go through closure procedures.

The Ayr - Kilmarnock service is actually busier now than it used to be, with about nine such services per day
In the 1980s there was just one service in each direction each day (the Euston - Stranraer)
It does seem one of the ironies that passenger numbers south of Girvan are falling

Buttsy · 2 Nov 2011

Perhaps then the solution, as closures are political nightmares, is to operate a regular Kilmarnock - Girvan service and extend 2 or 3 to Stranraer. This would allow the line south of Girvan to be operated as an extended siding, using the one train in steam principal redcuing costs and opening a Stranraer Town platform to replace the Harbour station (as having walked into the town from the station, it's not fun down that approach road). Needless to say I would not want to see this particularly, but it would be better than closure or a pure parliamentary service.

I would suggest a 2 hourly Girvan-Kilmarnock service (1 unit as the runs take almost an hour at the moment) and add in an occassional Glasgow-Stranraer service via Paisley (early morning & late evening shorts from/to Ayr) (1 unit on a 5 hour cycle Glasgow-Stranraer-Glasgow)

rail-britain · 2 Nov 2011

Buttsy said:
Perhaps then the solution, as closures are political nightmares, is to operate a regular Kilmarnock - Girvan service and extend 2 or 3 to Stranraer

Take a look at the current and next timetable, that is pretty much what they do already

MidnightFlyer · 2 Nov 2011

I think I am correct in saying that the only reason Stranraer trains run via Kilmarnock is to maintain the half-hourly service Glasgow-Killie. Pre-December 2008 all services ran fast via Paisley Gilmour St.

Blindtraveler · 2 Nov 2011

think your rite. The Carlisle/Newcastle via Dumfries has always run that way also. Quite a good service to GLC when you think about it from killi

CarterUSM · 2 Nov 2011

It is now, but they had a poor service for years. Hourly, with one or two, extras in the peak. On a Sunday, they still get an hourly service.

4SRKT · 2 Nov 2011

Things have certainly improved a lot. In the 1985 timetable there is an hourly service at xx:45 to Kilmarnock until 16:45. Then there is a 17:30 (through to Carlisle), then nothing until 20:00 (which goes through to Ayr)! Lastly there is the 22:15 sleeper to Euston (the Glasgow > Euston sleepers with seating accomodation ran this way then: there was a sleeping cars only portion that joined with the Edinburgh > Euston sleeping cars + seats at Carstairs).

South of Kilmarnock the service is very sparse indeed:

08:24 Carlisle (07:40 ex-Glasgow)
11:32 London Euston (11:05 ex-Ayr, FO except in the summer)
12:54 London Euston (11:00 ex-Stranraer)
14:28 Carlisle (13:45 ex-Glasgow)
16:28 Carlisle (15:45 ex-Glasgow)
18:17 Carlisle (17:30 ex-Glasgow)
22:54 London Euston (22:15 sleeper ex-Glasgow)
00:20 London Euston (22:00 sleeper ex-Stranraer)

Supplementing this are DMUs from Dumfries into Carlisle at 07:37, 11:37 and 22:37. The London trains were 47-hauled to Carlisle then electrics. The Glasgow > Carlisle service was formed of class 27s + mk Is, running in the paths of the DMU-operated local service between Glasgow and Kilmarnock. IIRR the DMUs on the Dumfries shorts were Ayr based ScR units rather than Carlisle based 108s. I suppose this means that at least one of the Carlisle > Glasgows must have been a DMU sometimes as there would be no other way to swap a ScR DMU in and out of Carlisle.

Blindtraveler · 2 Nov 2011

oh the days. Wish id been a bit older than 1, and bashing then and yes services til quite recently wernt great.

rail-britain · 2 Nov 2011

4SRKT said:
Things have certainly improved a lot. In the 1985 timetable there is an hourly service at xx:45 to Kilmarnock until 16:45. Then there is a 17:30 (through to Carlisle), then nothing until 20:00 (which goes through to Ayr)!

Yes, quite horrendous when you look back at it
I don't remember the 20:00 going to Ayr though

4SRKT said:
Lastly there is the 22:15 sleeper to Euston (the Glasgow > Euston sleepers with seating accomodation ran this way then: there was a sleeping cars only portion that joined with the Edinburgh > Euston sleeping cars + seats at Carstairs)

The Edinburgh - Euston sleeper was a stand alone, it did not join or split with anything
The other sleeper is the Plymouth, both of which joined and split at Carstairs

Later this changed and the Glasgow was also rerouted via Carstairs
The 20:00 Glasgow - Kilmarnock was then strengthened to a double DMU, arriving back in Glasgow in time for the sleeper
However, passenger numbers were vastly lower than anticipated so it returned to a single DMU

4SRKT said:
Supplementing this are DMUs from Dumfries into Carlisle at
07:37, 11:37 and 22:37
IIRR the DMUs on the Dumfries shorts were Ayr based ScR units rather than Carlisle based 108s

These were indeed Kingmoor based Class 108 units, there was nothing Scottish DMU based south of Kilmarnock at the time
These DMUs then formed other services to Whitehaven, a rather strange arrangement rather than having through advertised services
Equally, I remember one day where these services were operated by a Class 31 and GSW coaches as a Class 108 was not available

4SRKT · 2 Nov 2011

rail-britain said:
The Edinburgh - Euston sleeper was a stand alone, it did not join or split with anything
The other sleeper is the Plymouth, both of which joined and split at Carstairs

22:55 ex-Edinburgh. Note E - Conveys Nightrider seating accomodation from Edinburgh. Arr Carstairs 23:33
23:05 ex-Glasgow Central. Note G - Sleeping car passengers only. Arr Carstairs 23:42.
Combined train leaves Carstairs 23:45, arrives London Euston at 05:59

It's a bit unlikely that I would be copying something verbatim out of a 1985 timetable and yet get it wrong, non? Maybe you were thinking of the Night Scotsman that conveyed sleeping car passengers only from Edinburgh to Kings Cross?

drevil0208 · 8 Nov 2011

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but this is from Scotrail's website referring the 2012 Winter timetable:

"Following Stenas relocation to Port Ryan, there will be three more trains daily between Ayr and Girvan, including a 09.37 from Girvan for off peak travellers to Ayr.

There will also be a new direct service from Glasgow to Stranraer at 09.41 and a Stranraer-Glasgow service at 19.08"

phil8715 · 8 Nov 2011

Thats useful, why couldn't they have done that when the ferry sailed from Stranraer?

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CarterUSM · 9 Nov 2011

phil8715 said:
Thats useful, why couldn't they have done that when the ferry sailed from Stranraer?

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Too right, talk about the horse having bolted! Maybe i'll get the Ayr road and Killie to Troon back on my route card though.

harz99 · 11 Nov 2011

It's Scotrail spin to attempt to "big up" the revisions, which in regard to the Stranraer services are simply retiming/routing of existing journeys rather than additional trains.

My understanding is that there will in fact be one less departure from Stranraer than at present due to the removal of the late journey back to Ayr Mondays to Fridays.

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