What do think about the Christmas closedown?

Class377/5 · 16 Nov 2011

SS4 said:
You implied that public transport should run only if offices are open

What I was saying is why should one group expect another to not have the same rights as them? Was trying to be more in the middle and look at both sides.

tbtc said:
The difference is that Good Friday, Easter Monday, Mayday, End of May and End of August bank holidays are not a fixed date, they are chosen to fall on a particular day of the week (hence being different dates in different years).

And? This thread was made to talk about Xmas and its holidays, which is what I was doing.

Bank holidays in general is a different but connected issue.

RailUK Forums

tbtc · 16 Nov 2011

Class377/5 said:
And? This thread was made to talk about Xmas and its holidays, which is what I was doing.

Bank holidays in general is a different but connected issue.

But the railway runs on every other Bank Holiday; why not Boxing Day?

(big) shops are all closed on Easter Sunday (which is a much more significant date, religiously) - Boxing Day is the busiest shopping day of the year (with a full set of sporting fixtures).

Zoe · 16 Nov 2011

Are there ECS workings on Boxing Day to get the trains in the right place for the start of service on December 27? If so then getting them in the right place for the start of service on Boxing Day could require ECS workings on Christmas Day and this isn't going to be possible if no-one will work on that day.

Class377/5 · 16 Nov 2011

tbtc said:
But the railway runs on every other Bank Holiday; why not Boxing Day?

(big) shops are all closed on Easter Sunday (which is a much more significant date, religiously) - Boxing Day is the busiest shopping day of the year (with a full set of sporting fixtures).

But Easter Sunday isn't the big family event that Chritsmas is. Christmas is about family more than it is religious now (as was pointed out that socially things are much different these days).

I'm not actually auguring against bank holiday services but asking what aid it actually for?

As for sporting events, well the fact they arrange their fixtures without looking at how people will get there is a completely different matter.

Zoe said:
Are there ECS workings on Boxing Day to get the trains in the right place for the start of service on December 27? If so then getting them in the right place for the start of service on Boxing Day could require ECS workings on Christmas Day and this isn't going to be possible if no-one will work on that day.

On my line, it's one of the reasons for the early shut down as after services finish, they get stock ready for a start up rather than try and rearrange things hours before.

ole man · 16 Nov 2011

Tescos are the law, they seem do and get what they want, wouldnt surprise me to see a tesco open xmas day soon

blacknight · 16 Nov 2011

Oswyntail said:
And there, in a nutshell, is the biggest problem facing the railways today.:roll: Of course it's a service industry - it provides services rather than tangible goods. And "customers" is a generic term that includes "passengers", but also freight customers, and anyone else who pays for the services that the railways provide (such as PTEs).
And, on 25/12, I shall be working as normal, perhaps a little busier than most days - but you have no idea about what or where!

That must make Macdonalds heavy industry flipping burgers then :lol:

Greenback · 16 Nov 2011

I'm glad to see that this thread is still going strong!

I'd like to just make a few points in response to some other posts since I last looked at the thread.

Markdvdman mentions Scarlets v Ospreys, a traditional and popular rugby fixture in these parts. Others have also emntioned sporting fixtures as being a reason for Boxing Day services. However, I think we have to remember that with a lot of venues now being 'out of town'. how much use is a rails ervice going to really be for such events? Add to this the fact that many supporters don't live close to a station either, how likely is it that people will actually the train even if services run?

For example, many Ospreys fans will find it easier to drive, or get a lift with their friends, rather than find a way to get to a station, take a train and then get a taxi (or face a long walk) in Llanelli to Parc y Scarlets.An Ospreys supporter living in morriston would find it highly inconvient to go into Swansea for a train when they can drive directly to the ground in less than half an hour.How many of the 18000 fans that attend these matches would actually use the train?

Similarly, whereas Boxing Day may well be the busiest shopping day of the year, a lot of the retail activity willt ake place in out of town business parks that are very porrly served by railways. Of course, there are notable exceptions, and tbtc has made a good argument for places like Meadowhall to receive a service.

I am still not convinced that there is sufficient demand to justify anything other than a very limited service on Boxing Day given the costs of running the trains.

Bald Rick · 16 Nov 2011

... but with Man U at home on Boxing Day, trains from the home counties would certainly be well patronised. (I'm here all night...)

craigwilson · 16 Nov 2011

Bald Rick said:
... but with Man U at home on Boxing Day, trains from the home counties would certainly be well patronised. (I'm here all night...)

The joke was there to be had, my friend :lol:

deltic · 16 Nov 2011

Zoe said:
Are there ECS workings on Boxing Day to get the trains in the right place for the start of service on December 27? If so then getting them in the right place for the start of service on Boxing Day could require ECS workings on Christmas Day and this isn't going to be possible if no-one will work on that day.

Quite a few trains run on Christmas Day - a few just past midnight ECS movements from 24 Dec and large numbers of engineering trains and many signal boxes remain open.

In BR days newpaper trains ran on Boxing Day night mainly double headed in case of break downs.

Despite threats of strike action LUL manages to run large numbers of trains on Boxing Day some of which again operate on Network Rail tracks

infobleep · 16 Nov 2011

One year I had a network away break, when such things existed. Usually lasts 5 days. I had to go to work on the 27th Dec as I didn't take it as holiday.

I didn't drive and I went to see my parents. I was prepared to travel back on the evening of the 26th but no trains were running. They had announced that because of this network away breaks would last 6 days.

But would they let me use it in the morning of the 27th? No! The minium start time still applied making the 6th day usuless ib my case. Not my fault they refused to put on trains the day before when I was perfectly happy to travel back. At least provide a useful concession, given that they, not me, didn't wish to run the trains.

Note I'm not to bothered that they didn't want to run the trains, just that because of it they wouldn't let me travel early in the morning to get to work on a network away break. I was penalised for their discussions. I guess I couldn't have taken a days holiday but why should I have to.

SS4 · 16 Nov 2011

Bald Rick said:
... but with Man U at home on Boxing Day, trains from the home counties would certainly be well patronised. (I'm here all night...)

I heard that engineering works on the Tube has kept many away

Bevan Price · 16 Nov 2011

Bellwater said:
If there is to be a Rail Service on the 25/26 Dec Council offices, shops and supermarkets should open too.

Anyone seeking a job in public transport knows that it exists to serve the public. They should accept that they might be expected to work on days when public transport is needed. O.K. - the pay rate should be acceptable, but if they don't want to work on Boxing Day, don't get a job in public transport. And most supermarkets (and lots of other shops) do now open on Boxing Day.

GB · 17 Nov 2011

ole man said:
Tescos are the law, they seem do and get what they want, wouldnt surprise me to see a tesco open xmas day soon

...and why shouldn't they? If there is a business case for it and they can cover it with voluntary overtime then good luck to them, it's their business after all.

WatcherZero · 17 Nov 2011

Its now official, all supermarkets will open Boxing Day apart from Morrisions (family reasons) and John Lewis, to compensate for their competitors pre-new years advantage those two will be increasing their pre-Christmas opening hours.

scarby · 17 Nov 2011

infobleep said:
One year I had a network away break, when such things existed. Usually lasts 5 days. I had to go to work on the 27th Dec as I didn't take it as holiday.

I didn't drive and I went to see my parents. I was prepared to travel back on the evening of the 26th but no trains were running. They had announced that because of this network away breaks would last 6 days.

But would they let me use it in the morning of the 27th? No! The minium start time still applied making the 6th day usuless ib my case. Not my fault they refused to put on trains the day before when I was perfectly happy to travel back. At least provide a useful concession, given that they, not me, didn't wish to run the trains.

Note I'm not to bothered that they didn't want to run the trains, just that because of it they wouldn't let me travel early in the morning to get to work on a network away break. I was penalised for their discussions. I guess I couldn't have taken a days holiday but why should I have to.

This echoes a point I made earlier.

Next year Christmas and Boxing Day are on weekdays - so December 27 is a "normal" day.

If anyone goes away to family etc over a distance, how are they supposed to get back to start work on the morning of the 27th? Obviously as you say, they will either take a day's holiday, swap shifts etc, but why should they have to?

krus_aragon · 17 Nov 2011

Old Timer said:
And you will be doing what on Christmas Day exactly ?

Howardh said:
Anything to avoid ruddy C*******s. If the trains were running, I'd be off at 7am for a hard days rambling/drinking (not necessarily in that order) in the Lakes or the Peaks. And happy to pay double for the privilege.

All that I can think of to replace those asterisks, is 'Cardigans'...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Markdvdman said:
there is no LAW that states you cannot have a sale before Boxing Day! tescos start christmas sales before christmas nowadays!

I work for Buyology; our shops close Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Years Day and Easter Sunday.

That's two more days than the bookshop where I work. Christmas is the only day of the year we're allowed to keep the doors shut.

P.S. Tesco's Christmas sales are best in February, when they just want the shelf space back. I bought a copy of Scrabble for £2.18 or so!

merlodlliw · 17 Nov 2011

krus_aragon said:
That's two more days than the bookshop where I work. Christmas is the only day of the year we're allowed to keep the doors shut. end quote

Interesting that there are only two days Supermarkets over a certain size have to close,that is Easter Sunday & Xmas Day, the quid pro que when Sunday trading became legal, however giant Halfords are exempt.

Are you a Waterstones or a real Bookshop

What is the law on shop opening Easter Sunday and Christmas?

Small shops i.e. retail businesses with a floor area of less than 280 sq meters (3,014 sq feet) can open all day.
Larger shops i.e. retail businesses with a floor area of over 280 sq meters (3,014 sq feet), are not allowed to open Easter Sunday or Christmas Day.
Some large businesses are exempt e.g. pharmacies, motorway service areas, restaurants, hairdressers and other businesses providing services.

Bob

cuccir · 17 Nov 2011

Oswyntail said:
And, on 25/12, I shall be working as normal, perhaps a little busier than most days - but you have no idea about what or where!

Bloody hell he's Father Christmas!

--
Oh, I noticed the other day as well that my local Indian Take-Away now advertises as being open the 25th of December.... sounds nicer than turkey to me!

tbtc · 17 Nov 2011

Greenback said:
Markdvdman mentions Scarlets v Ospreys, a traditional and popular rugby fixture in these parts. Others have also emntioned sporting fixtures as being a reason for Boxing Day services. However, I think we have to remember that with a lot of venues now being 'out of town'. how much use is a rails ervice going to really be for such events? Add to this the fact that many supporters don't live close to a station either, how likely is it that people will actually the train even if services run?

The two games that I mentioned are both normally dependant upon the railway to get a large number of fans to the ground.

In the example of Manchester United, Northern normally run on "shuttles" from Piccadilly, with 323s taking supporters to the stadium.

In the case of Bolton, the ground is nowhere near the centre of the town, but is right by Horwich Parkway, so again a decent number of supporters arrive by train.

However, on Boxing Day that won't be an option. I'm obviously not suggesting that all 100,000 people attending the two games would have gone by rail normally, but Boxing Day is a "normal" day as far as sport is concerned.

As for some of the other comments on here along the lines of "why are people so desperate to go shopping on Boxing Day", the fact is that some people are. Rather than dismissing them, the railway should be trying to meet this obvious demand.

matchmaker · 17 Nov 2011

Old Timer said:
And you will be doing what on Christmas Day exactly ?

I was unfortunate enough to work Christmas Day last year. And New Years Day this year. And all but 2 of the days in between.....

This year I know I'm working Christmas Eve and Hogmanay at least

No, I don't work in transport, but I do work in the leisure industry and people who go away for a break need their accomodation cleaned!

EM2 · 17 Nov 2011

tbtc said:
I'm obviously not suggesting that all 100,000 people attending the two games would have gone by rail normally, but Boxing Day is a "normal" day as far as sport is concerned.

It's been that way for as long as I can remember (nearly forty years). Why does it need to change now, in an age when more people have access to a car than ever before?

tbtc · 17 Nov 2011

EM2 said:
It's been that way for as long as I can remember (nearly forty years). Why does it need to change now, in an age when more people have access to a car than ever before?

It all depends on whether the railway is there to meet public demand or not.

Being out of step in the past is no reason to continue being out of step.

Zoe · 17 Nov 2011

EM2 said:
in an age when more people have access to a car than ever before?

Is that really the case? The cost of running a car is quite a bit more expensive than it was a few years back so I would have thought that some people would have already given up their car. In the future it may well be that only the rich can afford a car and if this is the case then if no public transport is provided then only the rich will be able to travel that day.

daveplumber · 17 Nov 2011

Why can't this country just close for one day and allow all employees to take a day off.We need the emergency service/ energy services to operate but everything else close for one day.

Zoe · 17 Nov 2011

daveplumber said:
Why can't this country just close for one day and allow all employees to take a day off.We need the emergency service/ energy services to operate but everything else close for one day.

So let's close the airports then and shut down most of the TV stations.

Oswyntail · 17 Nov 2011

EM2 said:
It's been that way for as long as I can remember (nearly forty years). Why does it need to change now, in an age when more people have access to a car than ever before?

Take that argument a little bit further, and you close down the railways! There is an opportunity - the railway industry should try grasping it for once.

Zoe · 17 Nov 2011

Oswyntail said:
Take that argument a little bit further, and you close down the railways! There is an opportunity - the railway industry should try grasping it for once.

It's that attitude though that resulted in the lack of public transport we have today in many areas.

scarby · 17 Nov 2011

daveplumber said:
Why can't this country just close for one day and allow all employees to take a day off.We need the emergency service/ energy services to operate but everything else close for one day.

I keep reading this over and over on this thread and have no beef with this point of view at all.

However, the railways do not close for one day - they run down on the evening of the 24th and do not start again until the 27th.

The 26th is a normal bank holiday, when many shops are open, sporting events, and another matter not raised, many flights in and out of the UK.

The 24th is a night when a lot of people like to go out and socialise as well. Why on earth do south-eastern suburban services, for example, finish around 21.00? I am sure you will find plenty of people out in central London that night. The last train, for example, from London to Abbey Wood is at 21.05 instead of the normal 00.26.

I could understand maybe ending the service a bit earlier, say 23.00, but 21.05?

Zoe · 17 Nov 2011

If you run a service on Boxing Day though it's going to interfere with some people's Christmas Day as they are going to have to be ready for work early on Boxing Day.

What do think about the Christmas closedown?

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