Do Sleepers make money?

Popper · 29 Nov 2011

Do sleepers make money, or are they major loss makers?
Just out of intrest really, I was wondering if there was a market for a Continental Sleeper from London with portians splitting, say for Madrid via Barcalona, the Alps via the Riviaria, Berlin. I would call it the Night Continental!

Even better for the atmosphere and publicity if we head the first leg to the channel tunnel with a Steam Locomotive from Victoria. (now i'm really dreaming.)

Then, Jazz music would be played softly by a live band in the resturant car. When the train reached the channel tunnel, a TRAXX locomotive would take it over.

next day each passenger will wake up at their destination.

Why does a continental sleeper not exist?

RailUK Forums

DarloRich · 29 Nov 2011

Popper said:
Do sleepers make money, or are they major loss makers?
Just out of intrest really, I was wondering if there was a market for a Continental Sleeper from London with portians splitting, say for Madrid via Barcalona, the Alps via the Riviaria, Berlin. I would call it the Night Continental!

Even better for the atmosphere and publicity if we head the first leg to the channel tunnel with a Steam Locomotive from Victoria. (now i'm really dreaming.)

Then, Jazz music would be played softly by a live band in the resturant car. When the train reached the channel tunnel, a TRAXX locomotive would take it over.

next day each passenger will wake up at their destination.

Why does a continental sleeper not exist?

why? Becuase it is easier and cheaper to fly by easy jet or ryan air

4SRKT · 29 Nov 2011

DarloRich said:
why? Becuase it is easier and cheaper to fly by easy jet or ryan air

I would say these are totally different markets. It's easier to fly within Europe and even the UK, but sleepers still run.

Sleepers can't make money IMHO. The maximum load of a second class mk III sleeper is 24 or 26 passengers, 12 or 13 in first. The fares that would have to be charged to make this pay if the costs are anything like day services would be astronomical. Plus each set can only make one daily journey makes the economics even worse.

Popper · 29 Nov 2011

why? Becuase it is easier and cheaper to fly by easy jet or ryan air

Yes, but you can't sleep or have an enjoyable ride on a plane. (taking the sleeper's argument)

Ivo · 29 Nov 2011

Popper said:
Do sleepers make money, or are they major loss makers?

If they made money there'd be more of them

ajdunlop · 29 Nov 2011

Are they heavily subsidised on the continent or do they manage to make them operate more economically? I've always wandered why they don't have couchettes on UK sleepers, surely they would provide better loadings and cheaper tickets to compete with airlines. Just appears to be 1 or 2 bed sleeping births, I would be quite happy with 4 or 6 bed couchettes that I have use on the continent.

button_boxer · 29 Nov 2011

You'd be hard pressed to fit a 6-berth couchette within the British loading gauge.

Nym · 29 Nov 2011

How about within GC Loading Guage, from St Pancras to Frankfurt, Berlin, Spain etc. They'd fit... (I'm thinking 6 - 7hr destinations, run slower possibly making it a 9hr journey time?)

The Engineer · 29 Nov 2011

button_boxer said:
You'd be hard pressed to fit a 6-berth couchette within the British loading gauge.

Agree - would not fit at all! The Scottish sleepers DO NOT make money - the government keeps subsidising them for the benefit of the Scottish MPs

They've tried to withdraw them a few times but always failed on political grounds, with the government underwriting the losses...

jopsuk · 29 Nov 2011

The same goes for the Night Riviera- when the current GW franchise was formed First were keen to drop it entirely; the compromise was funding plus dropping the Friday night Motorail vans.

Yew · 29 Nov 2011

What we ened to make money, is japanese style pod's

More privacy than a couchette (and maybe even a double room), but more space economical than a double room, I would guess you might even be able to match the capacity of a 1st class carriage

of course, due to the limited space a lounge car would be needed. (maybe have a traditional lounge car, and a 1st class day coach? for two coaches of pods?)

sprinterguy · 29 Nov 2011

Yew said:
What we ened to make money, is japanese style pod's

Reminds me of the banks of tumble dryers we have at Uni. :lol:

Would probably have a similar effect as well if one of those trains was involved in a serious derailment.

Zoe · 29 Nov 2011

jopsuk said:
The same goes for the Night Riviera- when the current GW franchise was formed First were keen to drop it entirely; the compromise was funding plus dropping the Friday night Motorail vans.

Motorail ended in late 2005, before the Greater Western franchise had been decided. The dedicated Plymouth coach though was withdrawn at the start of the new franchise. As for First wanting to drop it, do we know for sure that was the case, all the bidders were asked to submit priced options for its withdrawal and also the withdrawal of the half hourly service to Cardiff.

4SRKT · 29 Nov 2011

How was the Plymouth sleeping car detached from the train, and where was it put? In BR days it (actually 'they' then) was shunted by the station pilot, but I don't suppose there was an 08 at Plymouth station by 2005. It's a rum do getting kicked off the sleeper at Plymouth at 05:30 BTW.

sprinterguy · 29 Nov 2011

Popper said:
Do sleepers make money, or are they major loss makers?
Just out of intrest really, I was wondering if there was a market for a Continental Sleeper from London with portians splitting, say for Madrid via Barcalona, the Alps via the Riviaria, Berlin. I would call it the Night Continental!

Or you could even call it "Nightstar"...

The Nightstar project that was intended to run through the tunnel in the nineties is the perfect case study of how prohibitively complicated and expensive a continental sleeper from Britain would be. The rolling stock has to be built to an even higher standard than domestic stock to be compliant with multiple different safety regimes of the countries that it'll pass through.

Additionally, you need to be able to source existing, or build new, types of locomotive from each country the train will operate in that have sufficient train supply to provide "hotel power" to the sleeper. As I understand it, this was one of the major stumbling blocks for Nightstar, as I think Belgium were lacking on suitable locomotives with enough "juice" to provide power to the Nightstar stock. All the British locos intended to haul the Nightstar stock were either built new (the EPS 92s) or purpose built conversions (The 37/6s and generator vehicles), which will have pushed up the cost of the project considerably given that the 92s are incredibly flashy bits of kit.

Of course, the other alternative is to carry a generator on board the coaching stock to provide power to the sleeper, removing the need for locos with a high train supply rating to haul the train. However, this is likely to add both weight and additional length to what will already probably be a fairly lengthy and weighty train.

However, this probably isn't such a major concern any more, as continental Europe have increasingly adopted a standard design template for locomotive types (Bombardier TRAXX, Siemens Taurus, etc) which improves interchangeability and aids standardisation. And there's nothing to say that these sleeper trains couldn't be EMUs as has been discussed recently on the Caledonian Sleeper thread, with all the traction power on board.

jon0844 · 29 Nov 2011

Having flown again on Virgin last week (although not actually in upper class) I do think that a train with Upper Class style seating/beds could hugely increase the capacity of sleepers - although in this case, the upper class 'pods' would be for standard class and actual cabins kept only for first class.

Deerfold · 29 Nov 2011

I've been on a sleeper that makes money.

However the Orient Express is *not* cheap.

Very pleasant though. And excellent food in the three dining cars.

With cocktails in the piano bar.

HSTEd · 29 Nov 2011

I believe the question is how you define "make money"

They probably cover the sleeper only marginal costs but that isn't enough any more to make them "make money".

If you cancel the sleepers on the basis that they carry too few passengers then you have to an interesting precedent for all those services with less than 25 people per vehicle.

In addition the "Cheap Airline" argument may not survive the next two decades as regards fuel prices, especially fi they do end up paying VAT and fuel duty.

kylemore · 29 Nov 2011

In the old days substantial revenue from mail and parcels would have made a big contribution to overall revenue.
Have long thought that premium overnight goods traffic could make a big difference to the sleeper economics.
One idea which would help the West Highland sleeper in particular would be to attach modern refrigerated vans or even containers carrying very high value seafood from Mallaig/Oban to the London market (or even beyond to the huge markets of Paris/Brussels)

Peter Mugridge · 29 Nov 2011

One thing that should be done but which isn't ( because the accountants are told to only look at the bottom line profit and loss accounts ) is that you should take into account the economic benefit of an overnight Sleeper service, particularly the ability to save a day each way for business travel. If this productivity benefit was taken into account, the true value of the Sleepers would emerge.

tbtc · 29 Nov 2011

Peter Mugridge said:
One thing that should be done but which isn't ( because the accountants are told to only look at the bottom line profit and loss accounts ) is that you should take into account the economic benefit of an overnight Sleeper service, particularly the ability to save a day each way for business travel. If this productivity benefit was taken into account, the true value of the Sleepers would emerge.

If passengers want to pay a higher price for the benefits of that productivity then thats fine. But they don't appear to, in sufficient numbers.

ajdunlop · 29 Nov 2011

sprinterguy said:
Or you could even call it "Nightstar"...

The Nightstar project that was intended to run through the tunnel in the nineties is the perfect case study of how prohibitively complicated and expensive a continental sleeper from Britain would be. The rolling stock has to be built to an even higher standard than domestic stock to be compliant with multiple different safety regimes of the countries that it'll pass through.

Additionally, you need to be able to source existing, or build new, types of locomotive from each country the train will operate in that have sufficient train supply to provide "hotel power" to the sleeper. As I understand it, this was one of the major stumbling blocks for Nightstar, as I think Belgium were lacking on suitable locomotives with enough "juice" to provide power to the Nightstar stock. All the British locos intended to haul the Nightstar stock were either built new (the EPS 92s) or purpose built conversions (The 37/6s and generator vehicles), which will have pushed up the cost of the project considerably given that the 92s are incredibly flashy bits of kit.

Of course, the other alternative is to carry a generator on board the coaching stock to provide power to the sleeper, removing the need for locos with a high train supply rating to haul the train. However, this is likely to add both weight and additional length to what will already probably be a fairly lengthy and weighty train.

However, this probably isn't such a major concern any more, as continental Europe have increasingly adopted a standard design template for locomotive types (Bombardier TRAXX, Siemens Taurus, etc) which improves interchangeability and aids standardisation. And there's nothing to say that these sleeper trains couldn't be EMUs as has been discussed recently on the Caledonian Sleeper thread, with all the traction power on board.

I thought the main reason Nightstar was scrapped was because the UK hadn't got their act together and finished HS1 so the sleepers could connect to WCML and ECML? Wasn't that one of the reasons for bringing HS1 into the north of London, to allow connections to the rest of the country.

shinkansen1966 · 29 Nov 2011

A rake of MK IV carriages on the ECML probably makes four trips in a 24 hour period. Each rake carries around 300 passengers. So for each trip, you could expect revenue of approx £7000. So in a 24 hour period, the rake makes revenue of £28,000.

A sleeper makes one trip in a 24 hr period. Each carries approx 150 passengers with revenue of approx £10,000. But you have to pay your staff overnight pay rates.

Sleepy · 29 Nov 2011

Do any TOC still pay extra for night shifts - cannot see any sleeper on board staff being paid much higher rates these days ?

JoeGJ1984 · 29 Nov 2011

Personally, I think there may well be a market for a London to Barcelona sleeper. Yes everybody mentions the cheap airlines, but it is mentioned that the cheap fares are now less available than at the peak of the cheap airlines craze in the late 1990s and early 2000s. And given all the increased security, restrictions on luggage, etc. I wonder if a London to Barcelona sleeper would be an attractive option for families on holiday (after all, you get ferries direct to Spain). As you would struggle to get cheap airline tickets for popular holiday destinations during the school summer holidays, so families may want to try something 'different'. There is also the fact that you don't 'waste a day' travelling by doing it at night.

And who on here doesn't like the idea of going on a sleeper from London to Barcelona, or at least think 'That's something I must do someday'?

sprinterguy · 29 Nov 2011

ajdunlop said:
I thought the main reason Nightstar was scrapped was because the UK hadn't got their act together and finished HS1 so the sleepers could connect to WCML and ECML? Wasn't that one of the reasons for bringing HS1 into the north of London, to allow connections to the rest of the country.

There were many contributing factors to the failure of Nightstar.

Nym · 29 Nov 2011

If you want to aim at families on overnight services, you'd need to offer something like a family cabin, all in the same room with a partition, possibly.

4SRKT · 29 Nov 2011

Nym said:
If you want to aim at families on overnight services, you'd need to offer something like a family cabin, all in the same room with a partition, possibly.

Adjoining cabins have interconnecting doors, meaning a party of up to 4 can travel together.

Nym · 29 Nov 2011

4SRKT said:
Adjoining cabins have interconnecting doors, meaning a party of up to 4 can travel together.

Works for me, space within this cabin that a cot for a small child could be added? and an en suite sink with small table, resturant car for meals?

Oh, and a carrage with them jap style pods for budget travellers, if I could have one of them and a secure space for luggage, I'd use such a service.

RichmondCommu · 29 Nov 2011

If I suggested to my wife and kids that we took the train down to France next summer for our annual holiday the answer would be a definite no. Even with HS2 the market for rail travel from say Birmingham or Manchester to Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam will be very limited. Flying will still be quicker and I dare say cheaper too.

Do Sleepers make money?

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