Lille Loophole

radamfi · 8 Dec 2011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-16058860

How are DB going to run their services from Amsterdam and Cologne to London without checking passports on the train? Unless these trains will be pick up only and not allow passengers from Amsterdam and Cologne to Brussels.

RailUK Forums

Aictos · 8 Dec 2011

radamfi said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-16058860

How are DB going to run their services from Amsterdam and Cologne to London without checking passports on the train? Unless these trains will be pick up only and not allow passengers from Amsterdam and Cologne to Brussels.

Surely for UK bound passengers, it will be just the same as it is at the moment with the Eurostar passport controls?

Just make sure the DB services use the same platforms as the Eurostars do and the same passport controls and it's fine although it would be better if the loophole was closed.

Although obviously this wouldn't apply to passengers between Germany, The Low Countries and France, there is however I feel already decent services between these countries that passengers just travelling between Brussels and Cologne can and should use the existing services rather then the new service between London and Cologne which would help resolve these passport issues.

shinkansen1966 · 8 Dec 2011

Just picked up on this story. When boarding at Brussels Midi, I thought everyone showed their passports / ID cards when boarding the Eurostar.

I wonder if Eurostar operate a penalty fare for those who stay on the train pass Lille and onto St Pancras.

Seriously ... how can this be resolved ?

gordonthemoron · 8 Dec 2011

non-story, all passports are checked by Belgian Police & UKBA at Brussels Midi, no passport, no travel, that also includes passengers from Brussels to Lille, despite them being in Schengen

shinkansen1966 · 8 Dec 2011

gordonthemoron said:
non-story, all passports are checked by Belgian Police & UKBA at Brussels Midi, no passport, no travel, that also includes passengers from Brussels to Lille, despite them being in Schengen

That's what I thought, too.

That's still doesn't stop someone boarding at Brussels Midi with a ticket to Lille only and travelling on a passport of their choosing and staying on the train to St Pancras. UKBA are powerless to intervene. At Brussels Midi station the passenger with a Lille only ticket says to UKBA: I'm travelling on passport from Monrovia, I'm getting off at Lille. This has nothing to do with you.

gordonthemoron · 8 Dec 2011

media bollox as usual

radamfi · 8 Dec 2011

ajax103 said:
Although obviously this wouldn't apply to passengers between Germany, The Low Countries and France, there is however I feel already decent services between these countries that passengers just travelling between Brussels and Cologne can and should use the existing services rather then the new service between London and Cologne which would help resolve these passport issues.

Won't this mean mostly empty trains between Amsterdam and Brussels and Cologne and Brussels? I thought the business case for these services relies on internal Schengen area travel?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

gordonthemoron said:
non-story, all passports are checked by Belgian Police & UKBA at Brussels Midi, no passport, no travel, that also includes passengers from Brussels to Lille, despite them being in Schengen

Do they actually check passengers with tickets from Brussels to Lille that they have a visa for the UK? Passengers without a UK visa but holding a Schengen visa are perfectly entitled to use this train. But if such a passenger decided to override to London then this wouldn't be noticed.

shinkansen1966 · 8 Dec 2011

gordonthemoron said:
media bollox as usual

Oh ... what makes you say that ? I picked this up via the BBC Radio 4 page. They're don't report any old rubbish !!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

radamfi said:
Passengers without a UK visa but holding a Schengen visa are perfectly entitled to use this train. But if such a passenger decided to override to London then this wouldn't be noticed.

And this is the problem. And there's nothing UKBA can do. Would you like to be hassled by authority from a third party country ? As you board the train at Brussels bound for Lille only, you may have never been to the UK nor have plans to visit.

gordonthemoron · 8 Dec 2011

UKBA still check their passports though

radamfi · 8 Dec 2011

Do you need a passport to get the Eurostar from Paris Nord to Calais-Fréthun?

shinkansen1966 · 8 Dec 2011

gordonthemoron said:
UKBA still check their passports though

Exactly what authority do UKBA have to stop someone boarding a train in Brussels if they have a ticket for Lille only ?

I certainly would not want to be hassled by a third party country which I'm not visiting. Why not start bringing in Belgian federal police to stop people travelling from Portsmouth to the Channel Islands on the ferry? (bit extreme, but you get my point).

Mike395 · 8 Dec 2011

This might be unworkable (I have no idea what the arrivals area layout at the UK EUrostar terminals is) - but surely the best idea would be to install ticket barriers in the arrivals terminal at St Pancras/Ebbsfleet/Ashford?

That way, only people with a ticket to the UK (and hence, only people who have been checked by UKBA) can be admitted. (This would require co-operation from E*, but I see no reason why they wouldnt agree to it, especially if the UKBA agree to fund their installation)

gordonthemoron · 8 Dec 2011

sounds good Mike

jon0844 · 8 Dec 2011

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...490&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Rail passengers can enter the UK illegally due to a loophole on the Eurostar, it has emerged.

However, the Government is powerless to close the so-called 'Lille loophole' and is in urgent negotiation with other European countries to close it, the Immigration Minister Damien Green admitted today.

It also emerged that the alarm was first raised in the House of Commons in 2001 and nothing was done.

The loophole works when passengers get on the train in Brussels to travel to Lille. When they board their passports aren't checked and they can then theoretically stay on until London without ever being asked to produce their documents.

Surely this isn't right? If so, how many people must be doing this regularly? Why even try to get in any other way??

ralphchadkirk · 8 Dec 2011

The article states that they are checked at St. Pancras anyway. It just seems to be blowing the fact that they aren't checked before Calais out of all proportion.

WhiteJoker · 8 Dec 2011

Or just check passports on the UK side as well? The infrastructure is there already.

gordonthemoron · 8 Dec 2011

passports are only checked at St. Pancras by French Border Police for travel from St. Pancras.

Passengers travelling to the UK have their passports checked by UKBA in Paris, Calais, Lille & Brussels before boarding the train

ralphchadkirk · 8 Dec 2011

gordonthemoron said:
passports are only checked at St. Pancras by French Border Police for travel from St. Pancras.

Passengers travelling to the UK have their passports checked by UKBA in Paris, Calais, Lille & Brussels before boarding the train

Ok, so theoretically someone could get on at Brussels with a Lille ticket and stay on until London (I'm betting they check tickets though), but the article states that there are UKBA people at STP.

gordonthemoron · 8 Dec 2011

no they don't check tickets, once you're checked in at London, Paris, Brussels etc, that's it.

There probably are UKBA staff at St.P but they don't usually do anything much

jon0844 · 8 Dec 2011

UKBA can check passports when people LEAVE London, but besides them being there for the pre-opening test runs that I attended, I've never seen the desks manned (but, the French ones are always there!). We only seem to do exit checks after something nasty happens it seems; reactive instead of proactive. Stupid, but that's how it is at airports most of the time too.

I've never been stopped or seen anyone from UKBA when returning to St Pancras (there's nowhere for them to be). They do occasionally have customs officers there, but it always seems like they're only working on tip-offs, so it does come over as quite an easy, safe, way to smuggle things in - that is unless the people scanning bags in France/Belgium do the tipping off if they spot something odd during the bag scans?

A comment on the DM does say that passports are checked at Brussels - by both Belgian and British officials (which is where UKBA are, in order to stop people getting into Britain in the first place where they could plead asylum).

If you were only going to Lille, I wonder if you would be able to bypass them? I've not been to Brussels for a long time, but in Paris I think every person has to be checked - assuming anyone would travel from Paris to Lille via Eurostar anyway, when I presume there are many normal trains that would be cheaper?

lemonic · 8 Dec 2011

Mike395 said:
This might be unworkable (I have no idea what the arrivals area layout at the UK EUrostar terminals is) - but surely the best idea would be to install ticket barriers in the arrivals terminal at St Pancras/Ebbsfleet/Ashford? That way, only people with a ticket to the UK (and hence, only people who have been checked by UKBA) can be admitted. (This would require co-operation from E*, but I see no reason why they wouldnt agree to it, especially if the UKBA agree to fund their installation)

I can imagine it taking a long time to exit the station. The Eurostar ticket barriers on departure are already slow (and with good reason) and if you have hundreds of people trying to pass through at the same time and fumbling for their tickets with their suitcases etc. it will really slow down leaving the station. Anyway, couldn't someone split tickets buying Brussels-Lille and Lille-London and still get into the UK with this solution?

cle · 8 Dec 2011

Don't people travelling to Lille or Calais from Brussels have to go through UKBA too and security - to access the Eurostar platforms?

I thought Lille was pick up only (often connecting with Disney and other TGV) as people from Brussels can take the Paris TGV for Lille.

blackfive460 · 8 Dec 2011

Passports and National Identity cards are always checked before boarding Eurostar irrespective of destination. Without such documents, you cannot board.
The only risk is with someone with a ticket to Lille travelling through to the UK and the simple solution would be to stop selling Brussels - Lille tickets making Lille pick up and set down only.

Mods, we now have two threads going on this, could they not be merged?

gordonthemoron · 8 Dec 2011

UKBA checks all passengers at Brussels, including those travelling to Lille. Lille is not pick up only. Brussels-Paris trains are Thalys and these do not stop at Lille. About half the services from Brussels to Lille are TGVs, but they don't go to Paris

jon0844 · 8 Dec 2011

I thought Lille would be pick up only. I've boarded there once and don't recall anyone getting off.

I do wonder if the DM has got it wrong, but perhaps there are some services that do allow people in Brussels to go to Lille, which seems like the thing to stop to close the loophole instantly. Surely there are regular train services from Brussels to Lille?

Edit; if they do check all passports (as I expected was the case), I wonder what UKBA does if the person says 'but I'm not going to the UK'. Presumably the UKBA can't register any complaint over the passport/ID shown? Although Britain is allowed to place staff in France and Belgium, they can't refuse to let people travel if they're not going to the UK!

In which case, it seems the Daily Mail may be right for once - and has now told the entire world. Great!

gordonthemoron · 8 Dec 2011

exactly, I bet hardly anyone has ever used this method to gain entry to the UK. UKBA wouldn't know in anycase

cle · 8 Dec 2011

Might it be a good idea to have all Brussels - Lille people in the same one carriage, which could be overseen at Lille to ensure everyone got off.

And then fill it with Lille - London bookings. Dwell would be rubbish though.

gordonthemoron · 8 Dec 2011

The train stops in Lille for quite a while

jon0844 · 8 Dec 2011

I wonder if I should have had the title as;

"Rail passengers can enter the UK illegally thanks to the Daily Mail"

Old Timer · 8 Dec 2011

jonmorris0844 said:
I wonder if I should have had the title as;

"Rail passengers can enter the UK illegally thanks to the Daily Mail"

Nothing was done by Labour when in power though, even though they knew.

Should be interesting to see how the Opposition play this one

Lille Loophole

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