Who decides if a train is too full?

bAzTNM · 10 Dec 2011

Hi!

I was on the 11:11am Saltcoats to Glasgow Central train today and it was absolutely mobbed. I even had the old woman behind me's dog on my lap. I offered to hold it. She looked like she was having some sort of panic attack on there. Some wee ned shouted from the vestibule "I CANNAE BREATHE!!", but everybody was laughing after he said it, so I assumed it was a joke.

When we arrived at Glasgow Central, a bunch of women said somebody had passed out further along the carriage.

I did notice that the train only had a few carriages attached. Too low a number for a Saturday afternoon.

Basically, who decides if a train is too full? Driver or guard? Thanks a lot!

RailUK Forums

O L Leigh · 10 Dec 2011

The passengers.

The problem is how to persuade a few of them to get off and wait for the next one while making room for those left onboard.

We get this from time to time. I make PA announcements about moving down inside the coaches and using the full length of the train, but I get ignored. What success do you imagine I would have standing at the front of the train trying to prevent more people from boarding? Frankly they do it to themselves.

*Takes shelter*

O L Leigh

Aictos · 10 Dec 2011

While I'm sure it's the guard's responsibility on services which do have them to decide to declassify first class/declare the service as being full and standing, on DOO services this can be done by either the driver/rpi or the dispatcher as long as both come to a common understanding of what will happen to the service.

Once a train is full and standing then it's the role of the CIS operator to ensure this information is made available to passengers waiting for this service further along the line but also to staff so they are aware.

O L Leigh · 10 Dec 2011

ajax103 said:
While I'm sure it's the guard's responsibility on services which do have them to decide to declassify first class/declare the service as being full and standing, on DOO services this can be done by either the driver/rpi or the dispatcher as long as both come to a common understanding of what will happen to the service.

Nope. We have no guidance regarding at what point a train becomes "full and standing" nor any way of checking this, and we most certainly do not have the power to declassify first class. Neither is it down to the dispatcher and driver/RPI to come to any understanding about what will or won't happen to the service (not that an RPI has any power to affect the way in which a train is worked). All of this is for Control to decide based on the information they receive.

O L Leigh

CarterUSM · 10 Dec 2011

O L Leigh said:
Nope. We have no guidance regarding at what point a train becomes "full and standing" nor any way of checking this, and we most certainly do not have the power to declassify first class. Neither is it down to the dispatcher and driver/RPI to come to any understanding about what will or won't happen to the service (not that an RPI has any power to affect the way in which a train is worked). All of this is for Control to decide based on the information they receive.

O L Leigh

Having said that, managing overcrowding is part of my job description and I have occasionally asked for the barriers at central to be closed to any more passengers when I deem the train to be absolutely stowed. Rarely, I must add. Though en route, I leave it to control to decide.

The Sleeper · 10 Dec 2011

DfT advise on Pass in excess of capacity rules, but this formula is flawed as it is based on 35% and not on rolling stock type -I know you can stand more pax in a Pacer than you can on a 321 as 3+2 seating is not designed for standing and in this case the 35% rule is nonsense...I intend to bring this issue up at the next MTM and ensure I get a formal reply which I can then send to appropriate authority (not the TOC -that is a waste of time)

MCR247 · 10 Dec 2011

I think I heard someone mention that a pendolino's TMS will refuse for it to budge if there is too many passengers as it affects the tilt or something?

notadriver · 10 Dec 2011

O L Leigh said:
Nope. We have no guidance regarding at what point a train becomes "full and standing" nor any way of checking this, and we most certainly do not have the power to declassify first class. Neither is it down to the dispatcher and driver/RPI to come to any understanding about what will or won't happen to the service (not that an RPI has any power to affect the way in which a train is worked). All of this is for Control to decide based on the information they receive.

O L Leigh

Is it normal practice for an RPI to tap on the drivers window at stations to request an automated PIS announcement that 'ticket checks will take place'?

Flamingo · 10 Dec 2011

What O Leigh said. Nobody gets forced onto a train at gunpoint.

I once had someone on a train into London (a regular moaner) complaining that under "'elf and safety" the train was overcrowded. (I had already made two announcements sating there was empty seats in the rearmost carriages.)

She seemed quite pleased when I said I would get control to have us stopped at Slough and have 100 people removed. She was less pleased when I asked her who the other 99 should be.

O L Leigh · 10 Dec 2011

notadriver said:
Is it normal practice for an RPI to tap on the drivers window at stations to request an automated PIS announcement that 'ticket checks will take place'?

Nope. In fact they NEVER ask us to make announcements regarding their activities.

Flamingo said:
I once had someone on a train into London (a regular moaner) complaining that under "'elf and safety" the train was overcrowded. (I had already made two announcements sating there was empty seats in the rearmost carriages.)

She seemed quite pleased when I said I would get control to have us stopped at Slough and have 100 people removed. She was less pleased when I asked her who the other 99 should be.

Excellent!! I shall have to remember that one.

Passengers are a moany bunch at times. I've had them come up to me and complain that a coach is too hot/cold. When I suggest they could move and sit elsewhere in the train where the ambient temperature may be more to their liking they ALWAYS reply "Nah, it's alright. I'll stay here." :roll:

O L Leigh

wintonian · 10 Dec 2011

Flamingo said:
What O Leigh said. Nobody gets forced onto a train at gunpoint.

But if you are travelling on an advance ticket the surely you don't really get the choice get off and wait for a later train?

Ok you could get off and by a walk-on fare for the next next service but you have already paid on the pretence that you will be able to be carried on a particular service.

swt_passenger · 10 Dec 2011

The Sleeper said:
DfT advise on Pass in excess of capacity rules, but this formula is flawed as it is based on 35% and not on rolling stock type -I know you can stand more pax in a Pacer than you can on a 321 as 3+2 seating is not designed for standing and in this case the 35% rule is nonsense...I intend to bring this issue up at the next MTM and ensure I get a formal reply which I can then send to appropriate authority (not the TOC -that is a waste of time)

There is not really a 35% rule, but that is a 'typical figure'. The ORRs explanation is in National Rail Trends:

"The standard class capacity is based on the booked formation of the service. It includes the number of standard class seats on the train and may include an allowance for standing room. No allowance for standing is made when a service has no stops for more than 20 minutes before (AM) or after (PM) the critical point[1], but it is allowed when there is a stop within 20 minutes. The allowance for standing varies with the type of rolling stock but, for modern sliding door stock, it is typically approximately 35 per cent of the number of seats. For most train operators the standing allowance is based on 0.45m2 per person. However, for South West Trains a figure of 0.25m2 is used and for London Overground and for Southeastern's class 376 'metro' style stock a figure of 0.35m2 is used."

That suggests that for any particular rolling stock type an exact standing capacity is calculated, and there are discrete figures for specific unit capacity found in some of the franchise specs online. The figure for SWT refers specifically to their high capacity 455 conversions, I found that in previous searching online about this subject. What this suggests is that your point about 35% applying to every type of stock across the board is not correct.

[1] the 'critical point' is the station on a route where the maximum passengers are onboard, usually but not necessarily the terminus.

matt · 10 Dec 2011

MCR247 said:
I think I heard someone mention that a pendolino's TMS will refuse for it to budge if there is too many passengers as it affects the tilt or something?

I think if its overloaded it the tilt will be dis-abled and will only be able to run at non-EPS speeds.

The Sleeper · 11 Dec 2011

swt_passenger said:
There is not really a 35% rule, but that is a 'typical figure'. The ORRs explanation is in National Rail Trends:

"The standard class capacity is based on the booked formation of the service. It includes the number of standard class seats on the train and may include an allowance for standing room. No allowance for standing is made when a service has no stops for more than 20 minutes before (AM) or after (PM) the critical point[1], but it is allowed when there is a stop within 20 minutes. The allowance for standing varies with the type of rolling stock but, for modern sliding door stock, it is typically approximately 35 per cent of the number of seats. For most train operators the standing allowance is based on 0.45m2 per person. However, for South West Trains a figure of 0.25m2 is used and for London Overground and for Southeastern's class 376 'metro' style stock a figure of 0.35m2 is used."

That suggests that for any particular rolling stock type an exact standing capacity is calculated, and there are discrete figures for specific unit capacity found in some of the franchise specs online. The figure for SWT refers specifically to their high capacity 455 conversions, I found that in previous searching online about this subject. What this suggests is that your point about 35% applying to every type of stock across the board is not correct.

[1] the 'critical point' is the station on a route where the maximum passengers are onboard, usually but not necessarily the terminus.

That is not unusual for the DfT and ORR to be at odds with each other. My figure came from a reply to a Passenger Focus enquiry and I could find no reference to it on their website. Strangely enough ATOC seem silent on the matter. This issue does bring in to question 'Who regulates the TOC's'? is it the DfT through the franchise obligations or the ORR (could never see the point of having the ORR and Passenger Focus -two watchdogs for one industry???) If the details you show are correct, then who enforces them? I don't see that it is the job of the guard or driver and what happens on DOO 3+2 sets at unstaffed stations - the system is clearly at fault, but I can't even begin to consider options other than platform and train lengthening and then this has a knock on affect on signalling and who is going to pay:cry:

cuccir · 11 Dec 2011

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who will pile into the carriage closest to the station entrance and.ignore the rest of the train. Durham is one of the worst for this - dozens of passengers will pile into two carriages of a voyager or hst, ignoring over half three train! OK for a small percentage of passengers it will be their first time at that station, but for others there is little excuse...

PhilipW · 11 Dec 2011

Nobody seems to have mentioned "more carriages" yet ? ... then it won't be full.

pemma · 11 Dec 2011

O L Leigh said:
The passengers.

The problem is how to persuade a few of them to get off and wait for the next one while making room for those left onboard.

With Northern Rail and TPE it seems to be the guard who makes the decision whether some more passengers can squeeze on, or whether some have to wait for the next service.

PhilipW · 11 Dec 2011

The example given was a service at 11:00, hardly peak time, so plenty of carriages around.

I'm just about to write another thread about my experiences of packed and standing trains at 23:00 at night.
"Not enough carriages around ??". Rubbish, pull the other one.

185 · 11 Dec 2011

I refused to move one of a certain company's trains some years ago.

"We have no extra units available. Don't be stupid. Just shut your doors and go."

Soon changed to

"Oh, well I've just found another 3car set on the depot, be with you in 5 mins."

.....after I handed my mobile to a senior chap from BT Police, who gave a fairly accurate description of just how full the last train of the night was and how many hundreds were left on the platform - most of them likely to utterly trash Piccadilly station.

pemma · 11 Dec 2011

185 said:
.....after I handed my mobile to a senior chap from BT Police, who gave a fairly accurate description of just how full the last train of the night was and how many hundreds were left on the platform - most of them likely to utterly trash Piccadilly station.

You just reminded me of Northern's decision to cancel the last train on a lot of services the day Rangers played a UEFA cup final in Manchester for safety reasons. In Northern's opinion it was not OK to have 200 people crammed on to Pacers but it was OK to leave thousands of passengers at Piccadilly overnight. Did Northern hope they'd just all disappear overnight?

185 · 11 Dec 2011

In some respects as much as I'm not keen on Northern, I think there were issues at Piccadilly at the time - despatch staff had (sensibly) walked off after a mass brawl on the junction (P13/14), meaning the trains which were waiting to go, had to leave without proper dispatch, which caused safety issues and piles of paperwork. Also many traincrew (sensibly) refused to work the late services due to the violence, but in situations like that Northern's on-call managers & other senior staff should have been sent out.

Under normal circumstances, no train company should ever be allowed to leave passengers who've turned up on time stranded with the cancellation of the last train, however the Rangers riot was perhaps understandable.

First Transpennine Express, who for 6 months cancelled all their night services in 2009 and put 44-seat buses on, to keep train mileage warranty costs down is an example of a company that does need binning.

Anvil1984 · 11 Dec 2011

Ah that night where staff had to attemot to leave trains through cab windows, where trains were trashed etc all because the telly in Manchester City Centre broke down I think it was more Manchester councils fault for putting a big screen on in the first place inviting people down then not having a back up plan, then the drunks got rowdy etc. I think the staff were right not to work trains for safety reasons that night

swt_passenger · 11 Dec 2011

The Sleeper said:
That is not unusual for the DfT and ORR to be at odds with each other. My figure came from a reply to a Passenger Focus enquiry and I could find no reference to it on their website. Strangely enough ATOC seem silent on the matter. This issue does bring in to question 'Who regulates the TOC's'? is it the DfT through the franchise obligations or the ORR (could never see the point of having the ORR and Passenger Focus -two watchdogs for one industry???) If the details you show are correct, then who enforces them? I don't see that it is the job of the guard or driver and what happens on DOO 3+2 sets at unstaffed stations - the system is clearly at fault, but I can't even begin to consider options other than platform and train lengthening and then this has a knock on affect on signalling and who is going to pay:cry:

I don't think there's a conflict. They are just simplifying the public announcements, because otherwise they'd have to list every unit type individually, and clearly some TOCs have the same units but with completely different internal layouts and standing capacitys; eg SN and SWT 455s are completely different.

However if you write in and ask what is the standing capacity of TOC X's class 321s, they should know exactly. From what I've read so far the DFT specify what a TOC should do about overcrowding in the franchise specs - but you'll find all the figures are redacted from the publicly accessible versions. ATOC have no control over rolling stock policy, they are just a trade association - I'd expect them to say 'nothing to do with us'.

IMHO even if you lengthened every train, and doubled the frequencies, there'd still be peak overcrowding, because the nature of passengers is to crowd to the front, or go for a particular time - and if everyone wants to be at work at roughly the same time they'll gravitate towards particular trains. There's no easy answer.

pemma · 11 Dec 2011

Anvil1984 said:
Ah that night where staff had to attemot to leave trains through cab windows

There was a pair of 142s joined up for a service where the guard announced the service had been cancelled and asked people to alight.

Northern claimed the passengers refused to leave the front train and held the driver hostage, while passengers claimed the announcement was not heard on the front train and they were still waiting for the train to depart, unaware it had been cancelled.

Had it been 2x150/2s instead of 2x142s problems would have been less likely to occur.

Anvil1984 · 11 Dec 2011

Yes as the driver would have had an escape route off the train (providing the door but the vestibule behind the drivers door was locked which most of the time it isnt) but barring that the service would probably have still been cancelled

Cliveblackpool · 11 Dec 2011

IMO a train is full when you can't fit anymore on it!
If they can't close the doors it is over crowded! :lol:

Japan's answer!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0A9-oUoMug
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

jcollins said:
You just reminded me of Northern's decision to cancel the last train on a lot of services the day Rangers played a UEFA cup final in Manchester for safety reasons. In Northern's opinion it was not OK to have 200 people crammed on to Pacers but it was OK to leave thousands of passengers at Piccadilly overnight. Did Northern hope they'd just all disappear overnight?

No excuse for this, Northern knew weeks in advance of the huge numbers coming to Manchester. Example of a privatized company incapable or refusing to deal with it.

We had loads staying in Blackpool, although drinking loads they were well behaved. The screen problem - many were trapped there instead of being directed to a working screen.

Aictos · 11 Dec 2011

O L Leigh said:
Nope. We have no guidance regarding at what point a train becomes "full and standing" nor any way of checking this, and we most certainly do not have the power to declassify first class. Neither is it down to the dispatcher and driver/RPI to come to any understanding about what will or won't happen to the service (not that an RPI has any power to affect the way in which a train is worked). All of this is for Control to decide based on the information they receive.

O L Leigh

I queried this a few months back, only for Control to state anyone can declassify a service if they feel the service is suffering from severe overcrowding be it a driver, RPI or platform staff.

Of course, every TOC gives different advice.

branchline · 11 Dec 2011

It's getting quite normal to declassify 12 car peak train out of Euston!

Flamingo · 11 Dec 2011

PhilipW said:
Nobody seems to have mentioned "more carriages" yet ? ... then it won't be full.

Where from? That's a political decision.

Cliveblackpool · 11 Dec 2011

Flamingo said:
Where from? That's a political decision.

Yep

gone are the days when BR could mobilize an extra train in less than an hour!
In the mid 70's About 200 passengers at St Austell took advantage of a special fare to Plymouth around 10.00am. The area manager came out with his megaphone, requesting that they didn't pile onto the next train as it was already packed, unless they were travelling beyond Plymouth. Another train would arrive 5 minutes later and would stop at Par then non stop to Plymouth with plenty of seats for all!
As the first train pulled out the train arrived on the down line, then crossed over to the up platform and everyone got on. The train was made up of a mixture of single, double & triple DMU's 10 coaches in all - the spare trains for the branch lines stored at St Blazey.
Today there are no spare trains. Break down = bus.
No single large pools of drivers either.

Who decides if a train is too full?

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