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Northern Rail dispatch policy.

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150222

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I am reffuring to the new policy of northern guards shutting the doors from the back. I was on a train earlier and at 2 consecutive stations the guard opened and closed the doors from the middle of the train! I am aware there are some stations that are exeptions due to curved platforms however these were not one of them. At one of the stations the platform is completely straight. At first I had expected the guard to shut the panal and go to the back like usual. I was suprised to see them shutting from the middle as well. I wouldn't report this type of incident although I assume they would be disiplined if it was noticed. Is this a common occurence?
 
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142094

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I am reffuring to the new policy of northern guards shutting the doors from the back. I was on a train earlier and at 2 consecutive stations the guard opened and closed the doors from the middle of the train! I am aware there are some stations that are exeptions due to short platforms however these were not one of them. At one of the stations the platform is completely straight. At first I had expected the guard to shut the panal and go to the back like usual. I was suprised to see them shutting from the middle as well. I wouldn't report this type of incident although I assume they would be disiplined if it was noticed. Is this a common occurence?

From what some of the staff have said they are supposed to close doors from the back in order to check the platform on departure. However, in reality this doesn't always happen especially when the train is full and they can only get a certain way along doing the ticket check before the train arrives at the next station.
 

MidnightFlyer

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I'm not sure it's a change of policy, I've seen it done at many a time all over Northern's network, but, as 142094 says, it only tends to be when the train is busy or they happen to be stood immediately next to another set of doors when the train stops.
 

Lampshade

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Hmm, ANorthernGuard/175001/Anvil1984 may be able to give a definite answer, but with Northern I think it has something to do with the Door Key Switch, on some Sprinters especially, which means the doors can be done from either end of the train.

Doors can be 'legitimately' opened from anywhere as far as I'm aware, some TPE Guards open the doors on 185s from the middle on really busy services so they can resume checking tickets after departure.
 

districtline

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I am reffuring to the new policy of northern guards shutting the doors from the back. I was on a train earlier and at 2 consecutive stations the guard opened and closed the doors from the middle of the train! I am aware there are some stations that are exeptions due to curved platforms however these were not one of them. At one of the stations the platform is completely straight. At first I had expected the guard to shut the panal and go to the back like usual. I was suprised to see them shutting from the middle as well. I wouldn't report this type of incident although I assume they would be disiplined if it was noticed. Is this a common occurence?
How staff operate the railway is of no concern to you as a passenger. This is like on London Underground where some enthusiasts obtaiend Working Timetables and start complaining that a train isn't on time.
 

142094

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How staff operate the railway is of no concern to you as a passenger. This is like on London Underground where some enthusiasts obtaiend Working Timetables and start complaining that a train isn't on time.

We had the same argument in the last thread that was about this and it got rebuffed very quickly.
 

bluenoxid

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How staff operate the railway is of no concern to you as a passenger. This is like on London Underground where some enthusiasts obtaiend Working Timetables and start complaining that a train isn't on time.

Actually it is. My personal safety and quite a significant chunk of my hard earned cash is being placed in your hands so the way you perform job is well and truly my business. Once you realise this, I am sure you will understand the passenger a little better.

I have been led to believe that the policy has been eased but I would leave it to a member of Northern Rails' guard staff to confirm the case. I have heard about why it was implemented and I felt it was a little knee jerk in terms of the response.
 

districtline

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Actually it is. My personal safety and quite a significant chunk of my hard earned cash is being placed in your hands so the way you perform job is well and truly my business. Once you realise this, I am sure you will understand the passenger a little better.
That is why staff are trained and tested in safety critical duties. If you were on a plane, you wouldn't go up and knock on the cockpit door asking for the flight plans would you? You wouldn't demand to be able to listen to live ATC?
 

scotsman

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Actually it is. My personal safety and quite a significant chunk of my hard earned cash is being placed in your hands so the way you perform job is well and truly my business. Once you realise this, I am sure you will understand the passenger a little better.

Not the best way to justify a question...

I don't think you'll get much help for saying you want to know what the correct policy is, so that you know if Guards are doing their job properly. :roll:
 

Yew

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So that means that staff should be allowed to get away with performing safety critical duties incorrectly, as it's none of the passengers buisiness? I find that viewpoint interesting, as personally I find things that could endanger my safety to be very much my buisness
 

districtline

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So that means that staff should be allowed to get away with performing safety critical duties incorrectly, as it's none of the passengers buisiness? I find that viewpoint interesting, as personally I find things that could endanger my safety to be very much my buisness
So you'd expect to be able to listen to the ATC or see the flight plans when on an aircraft then as I said above? You'd expect to be able to watch the control room of a nuclear power plant?
 

WestCoast

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So that means that staff should be allowed to get away with performing safety critical duties incorrectly, as it's none of the passengers buisiness? I find that viewpoint interesting, as personally I find things that could endanger my safety to be very much my buisness

If a passenger was to report a member of train crew doing something which was in fact standard procedure, the company would just respond saying that surely?
 

Greenback

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There is a line that needs to be drawn between passengers being concerned about the safe operation of the train, and the small print of the rule book.

To my mind, passengers have a right to be satisfied that their journey is being handled by a competently trained professional person, but this does not extend to allowing passengers who have not been trained in such duties being able to monitor every little detail of how those professionals carry out their duties.
 

Nym

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To draw some paralell, it would be like someone who uses a kettle overlooking a national grid engineer at Siemens designing some power electroic invertors.
 

lincolnshire

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So a certain person doesn,t think its safe for the guard to close the doors from any other position other than the rear of the train!
So why was 156,s have door controls at every set of doors then? so that the guard can open the doors as he works his way through the train doing tickets etc. If we had to wait every time for the guard to push his way back through the train to get to the rear to open the doors etc, how many lost minutes would there be on the journey.

He better not travel on First Capital Connect , would he want the driver to walk to the back cab to shut the doors then?

Another so called bloody expert, hope he is an expert in his own job as much as everyone else,s job, he wants to try doing the job for rate of pay, especially the late night trains .
 

bluenoxid

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That is why staff are trained and tested in safety critical duties. If you were on a plane, you wouldn't go up and knock on the cockpit door asking for the flight plans would you? You wouldn't demand to be able to listen to live ATC?

That is as unrealistic as it is behind the scenes. However, if the pilot was larding it round the cabin outside of his duties then there is a point to be asked. It doesn't matter if you train and test people, if they do it wrong and/or the passengers are concerned, it is a problem and people are not infallible.

Not the best way to justify a question...

I don't think you'll get much help for saying you want to know what the correct policy is, so that you know if Guards are doing their job properly. :roll:

I don't care about this policy. Personally, I think it is a kneejerk response to an incident. There are situations where I would report my concerns and I am sure that you would also be reaching that uncomfortable stage of this isn't right.

If a passenger was to report a member of train crew doing something which was in fact standard procedure, the company would just respond saying that surely?

Yes, they would. Passengers have the right and ability to question and any company should be encouraging that. You don't want a passenger to do something stupid with good intentions.

There is a line that needs to be drawn between passengers being concerned about the safe operation of the train, and the small print of the rule book.

To my mind, passengers have a right to be satisfied that their journey is being handled by a competently trained professional person, but this does not extend to allowing passengers who have not been trained in such duties being able to monitor every little detail of how those professionals carry out their duties.

Of course Greenback and you get the balance exactly right.

The very generic and inadvisable comment from District Line that how things are done are none of your business is the kind of attitude that comes back to bite.
 

Greenback

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To draw some paralell, it would be like someone who uses a kettle overlooking a national grid engineer at Siemens designing some power electroic invertors.

That's not really the same thing as members of the public don't have access to such places!

Where they do, and the best parallel would be other transport such as aircaraft, ships and buses, you can understand why someone might be concerned about obvious dangers, such as a member of staff seemingly under the influence, messing about or behaving in an aggressive manner.

But there is no sense in passengers monitoring the performance of staff in the course of their duties, when they have had no training in, or real understanding of, those duties themselves.
 

bluenoxid

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So a certain person doesn,t think its safe for the guard to close the doors from any other position other than the rear of the train!
So why was 156,s have door controls at every set of doors then? so that the guard can open the doors as he works his way through the train doing tickets etc. If we had to wait every time for the guard to push his way back through the train to get to the rear to open the doors etc, how many lost minutes would there be on the journey.

He better not travel on First Capital Connect , would he want the driver to walk to the back cab to shut the doors then?

Another so called bloody expert, hope he is an expert in his own job as much as everyone else,s job, he wants to try doing the job for rate of pay, especially the late night trains .

Unfortunately, Northern Rail have introduced this lovely policy.
 

Greenback

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Of course Greenback and you get the balance exactly right.

The very generic and inadvisable comment from District Line that how things are done are none of your business is the kind of attitude that comes back to bite.

Thank you. With most things in life there is a balance needed somewhere!
 

MidnightFlyer

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Unfortunately, Northern Rail have introduced this lovely policy.

AFAIK Northern guards have to stand at the back and see the train out of the platform before they can resume duties due to a past incident I believe. I'm not too sure what brought it about but I have never seen another regional TOC do it as much as NT guards.
 

bluenoxid

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But there is no sense in passengers monitoring the performance of staff in the course of their duties, when they have had no training in, or real understanding of, those duties themselves.

And to be honest, I don't think most are that bothered with it. I am more bothered about getting to where I want to go rather than tickboxing things.

What next trainstaffadvisor.com :roll:

It does annoy me when I see some reports and you feel like asking, why didn't you challenge it if it was so dangerous at the time.
 

districtline

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But there is no sense in passengers monitoring the performance of staff in the course of their duties, when they have had no training in, or real understanding of, those duties themselves.
And this includes watching where the guard stands to close the doors.
 

Clip

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Excellent. Another instance of an enthusiast who doesnt work on teh railways wanting to monitor and dictate what peoples jobs are and how they should go about them.

Brilliant
 

150222

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So a certain person doesnt think its safe for the guard to close the doors from any other position other than the rear of the train!
So why was 156 have door controls at every set of doors then? so that the guard can open the doors as he works his way through the train. If we had to wait every time for the guard to get to the rear to open the doors etc, how many lost minutes would there be on the journey. He better not travel on First Capital Connect , would he want the driver to walk to the back cab to shut the doors then? Hope he is an expert in his own job as much as everyone else,s job, he wants to try doing the job for rate of pay, especially the late night trains .
I'll assume your refering to me. If you were then you have it all wrong. I do not think it is unsafe to do the doors from the front/middle. Infact I don't see the point of the rule however the point is I think saw the guard breaking the rules and was wondering if it was still the correct rule.
 

Greenback

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And to be honest, I don't think most are that bothered with it. I am more bothered about getting to where I want to go rather than tickboxing things.

What next trainstaffadvisor.com :roll:

It does annoy me when I see some reports and you feel like asking, why didn't you challenge it if it was so dangerous at the time.

And this includes watching where the guard stands to close the doors.

I have never really been interested in where the guard is standing to operate the doors. It is easy enough to see the platform in the majority of locations from the front, middle or rear of a 2 or 3 car unit.

It strikes me that there may be many very good reasons for a guard to choose a particular door, none of which are really my business provided I see nothing to suggest that the person concerned is not fit to carry out their duties.
 
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I wonder who is best placed to close the doors, the driver or the guard?
Being able to do a visual check (direct sight, mirrors, cctv) when closing them is important imo. I can't see anything wrong closing them from the middle of the train. If there is a rule 'preferably from the back' etc there is a good reason for it, but interesting to know!
 

BestWestern

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That's not really the same thing as members of the public don't have access to such places!

Where they do, and the best parallel would be other transport such as aircaraft, ships and buses, you can understand why someone might be concerned about obvious dangers, such as a member of staff seemingly under the influence, messing about or behaving in an aggressive manner.

But there is no sense in passengers monitoring the performance of staff in the course of their duties, when they have had no training in, or real understanding of, those duties themselves.

You make some very valid, sensible and balanced points in this thread Greenback, thank you for that input!

I agree that passengers and members of the public, be they knowledgeable about the railways or not, have a right to expect the safety aspects of their journey to be handled to a high standard by somebody who is competent and conscientious about their work. Railway staff working in these areas must be aware of this and understand that they are in a highly visible role where there is every chance that some of their customers will take an interest in how they perform their duties. As an example, I was asked only a few days ago by a worried looking chap on board why the door open buttons were lit while the train was moving. It was a 158, and the buttons that he could see through the vestibule doors were in fact for the disabled toilet door! A silly question if you know your stuff, but an illustration of the sort of concerns that some travellers will have. At the same time though, it's worth remembering that the intricacies of railway operation are not intended to be public knowledge, for good reasons, and in many cases staff have every right to decline to offer details of what they might be doing and why, door operation being a good example. I've had people getting very curious about how the doors work, almost certainly with completely harmless intent, but they didn't get the answer from me.

There is never an excuse for slacking on the safety stuff and I can never understand those who do, particularly bearing in mind that the next passenger who notices something could very easily be a manger from within the railway, who really does know what they are talking about. However, in the situation mentioned I think it's a case of somebody with a little information worrying themselves unnecessarily over a technicality about which they probably don't have all the facts. There is a line where it becomes a case of 'mind your own business', and I would suggest that this one is probably quite close to it.
 

Anvil1984

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Herm the policy has been interpreted several different ways by different CTMs and depots. Some say always at the back others say so long as its not done from the front, at our depot its the latter
 

Anvil1984

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The actual wording of the instruction from Northern is something like Doors SHOULD be worked from the rear or middle depending on the curvature of the platform. Emphasis is that should is used instead of must.
 
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