If they are entitled to take a train departing 0931 then they should be allowed. What if they had a London-Manchester Advance on the 1020 and they were obliged to take the 0931 in order to satisfy minimum connection times? The passenger is then in a situation where they are not able to satisfy their obligation to Virgin to take a train that leaves sufficient time to cross London. I assume SWT would be happy to pay any compensation due for missing this train if a passenger was denied access to it, and a subsequent delay occurred on the next train or on the tube?
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Off Peak, not allowed to enter station?
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Smethwickian
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It's also just occured to me that one of the earlier posts referred to legitimate use of station facilities. Saying that someone can't go through a barrier at, say, 0920 with a ticket valid for departure from 0930, when they wish to go to the loo, is very hard to justify. That's tantamount to adding a toilet ration to the restriction code on the ticket: "B1. Outward Travel; By any train except those timed to depart Mondays-Fridays before 0930. Return Travel; by any train. Toilet permission - Not on departure; en-route or destination (maximum five minutes) only."
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Just to back this up, the 09:31 arrives WAT 09:42, the 09:33 goes from a different island platform at Clapham (so we'll discount this - as our poor chap is already breathless) there are then two 09:35s (one from the same p10) - both of these call along the way, arriving at 09:47 and 09:48 - this is FIVE minutes delay! If they were connecting onto (say) megatrain to portsmouth/southampton then this eats substantially into the minimum connection time at WAT
junglejames
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Id suggest you are in the wrong there. What if they had a platform ticket? Would you have refused them entry on the basis they could have got on the train?
They had a ticket for travel. That means they are able to go onto the platform. Its then upto on train staff to catch those travelling during peak time on off peak tickets. They may have wanted to go and take a few numbers down before catching the train. Could have been anything.
Along with staff at just about every other non-LO station in greater London.:roll:
Molesley Boy has already agreed that people wanting the 0931 to either Waterloo or Victoria would probably be allowed through at about 0925. If someone says that they are desperate for the toilet then I'd hope most staff would show compassion, though he's also pointed out that the toilets are right by the gateline at Clapham Junction, and cost money to enter. As for getting a cake/coffee ... if you're that bothered you could get one in London, or outside the station, or just take a later train. We are only talking about a 5-10 minute journey here.
Urban Gateline
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I believe we have discussed this before, and you know that the Freedom pass will allow someone through the barrier ar something like 09:28 anyway, so with that in mind, there is no reason why someone wouldn't make the 09:31 departure as the platforms are not that far away.
As for the Advances dilemma, I would suggest to that hypothetical passenger to allow a bit more time for their journey, like any other normal person would do, just chose a slightly later connection which will not be so tight!
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That is a moot point, as platform tickets are not sold at any SWT stations. Even so, someone with a Platform ticket has different intentions, you can see when people are genuine and want to see someone off or help with luggage or take pictures as opposed to someone who wants to catch an earlier tain than they're entitled to.
Yes they have a ticket for travel, No they are not able to go to the Platform if the barrier rejects their ticket. Time restricted tickets are blocked in the barriers on purpose. Each case will be dealt with individually and if the person makes a reasonable request and agrees to follow the rules of their ticket then I will accomodate their request, simple!
On train staff? Not all trains have a Guard, let alone a Commercial one to check tickets, so the Barriers are a good line of defense, especially in the peak times when it may be impossible for the Guard to walk through the train checking tickets.
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I've already asked whether your 'policy' is your own or from management, and didn't receive an answer....
I'm not trying to offend you, however I don't like this policy
This is Company policy, written by the London Area Revenue Manager.
We can use discretion, for example I wouldn't mind letting someone with a NSE discounted ticket for Brighton through the barriers any time after the 09:42 has departed, this allows nearly 30mins for the passenger to mill around and use the facilities.
It's only a different story when there are trains that the passenger's ticket is barred on, that have not yet departed.
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Again I think this is a moot point. What time do the Megatrain services actually leave London Waterloo to Southampton or Portsmouth?
I think it is simple enough to allow enough time to make the journey, if the passenger fears of missing their connection, then they need to purchase a ticket which is valid during the peak time that will get them there earlier. As I also said above, at 09:28 or something like that, the Freedom pass operates the barriers to allow time to get to the platform.
This is getting a bit ridiculous now!
The 0931 is already "allowing a bit more time for their journey", the hypothetical customer is both contractually obliged to take the 0931 (due to holding an Advance ticket from London that requires a certain amount of interchange time), and entitled to take the 0931 (by holding a Freedom Pass), if you would deny them their right to take that train you are also denying them the opportunity to fully comply with the Conditions. That is not on.
They don't have to sell platform tickets; they can choose to use any other means they deem fit to allow people to access the platforms.
Barriers must not be used as a means of making people who wish to take trains at certain times run for those trains. I am sure that it is against SWT policy to encourage passengers for trains departing at 0931 to run for trains.
I strongly object to your earlier suggestion that passengers can be denied the right to take the 0931 and may be forced to take a later train.
I'd be interested to read it.
Has he? That contradicts what he said in post #23 , the contents of which I find concerning. If necessary a letter can be written to SWT asking them to confirm if it is Company Policy to force passengers to miss a train at 0931 on the basis that there are later trains.
Is such a letter necessary? molesey boy - over to you...
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Absolutely spot on.
Whilst I would be loath to criticise coal-face staff, the policy of not allowing passengers inside the gateline to board the 0931 is at best asinine...
Urban Gateline
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I thought the same after reading your post, this is getting a bit ridiculous, you are clutching at straws and going completely over the top in your suggestions.
Ok, so they go through the barriers at 09:28, using their Freedom Pass which does operate the barriers, they have 3mins time or at least 2min30sec to catch the 09:31 departure. Easy.
Agreed.
Again, where did I mention anything about running? The 09:28 time when Freedom passes operate the barriers is quite generous, you can easily walk from one side of the station to the other in that time, hence you wouldn't miss the train.
Why? I didn't say I would deny them, if someone made it clear to me that this train was their intentional connection, then I would warn them not to take an earlier one and let them through, so long as it's not earlier than 09:25.
Sorry it's not in the public domain, I'm sure you'd love to read it and dispute every fine detail written in it!
That is not my decision to make, if you wish to be so pedantic and over the top then please do send this letter, but be sure to write the letter without bias and mention the full details.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Given that the railway is run for the benefit of the passenger, why should they?
Urban Gateline
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From 09:28 the Fredom Pass, and probably all other Off-Peak tickets (except Y-P and NR discounted) should work the barriers. So there is no chance of missing the train if the passenger gets to the station on time.
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Yay this old chestnut again
Yes the Railway is run for the benefit of the Passenger, however the Passenger must follow ticketing restriction rules and also allow enough time to make their Journey, you'd be surprised how many people miss their booked Advance journey due to their own poor planning, not because of staff!
I'm still a bit confused about the time.
0825 was mentioned but that seems to be MikeWh's suggestion. That would be reasonable in the circumstances. It is also suggested by you where a customer has an onward connection; that's fine.
0828 has also been mentioned, but that's a bit dodgy. Depends on the customer, the entrance they use and the platform as to how dodgy that may be.
0929 could also be inferred because you previously said the last invalid train should depart first.
But it was this statement that caused me to be concerned:-
It appears that the time will vary depending on numerous factors, I don't necessarily have an issue with that but I have an issue once it gets dangerously close to the departure time.
I know some people who would want to be on the platform at least 3 mins before departure, not entering the gates (and potentially a long walk depending on the entrance/platforms applicable) only 3 mins before.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
0825 was mentioned but that seems to be MikeWh's suggestion. That would be reasonable in the circumstances. It is also suggested by you where a customer has an onward connection; that's fine.
0828 has also been mentioned, but that's a bit dodgy. Depends on the customer, the entrance they use and the platform as to how dodgy that may be.
0929 could also be inferred because you previously said the last invalid train should depart first.
But it was this statement that caused me to be concerned:-
It appears that the time will vary depending on numerous factors, I don't necessarily have an issue with that but I have an issue once it gets dangerously close to the departure time.
I know some people who would want to be on the platform at least 3 mins before departure, not entering the gates (and potentially a long walk depending on the entrance/platforms applicable) only 3 mins before.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
We are not suggesting otherwise. For someone holding a Freedom Pass plus London - Manchester Advance that means they must be on the platform and in a position to board the 0931 departure, if they are not in a position to board that train they are not allowing the recommended time to cross London, and if that was caused by SWT staff I would consider SWT liable for that, if a subsequent delay occurred to, say, the 0932 and if the 0931 ran on time. And yes, Virgin staff at Euston may be wondering why the passenger did not take the 0931 if that ran to time and the passenger would have made their train at Euston if they had caught the 0931. It's not me who is nitpicking, the rail industry requires the customer to take the 0931 to be covered.
In my scenario of connecting with 1020 EUS-MAN the 0931 CLJ-WAT is the recommended train to catch and allows sufficient time for their journey.
In response to:
he said:
Reading again I realise that it is not specifically agreeing with the 0925 bit, but he doesn't contradict it either.
Here is post 23 again:
I cannot see the word force in there. He suggests that people wouldn't be too fussed about missing the 0931 when there's another service a minute or so later. In a lot of cases that would be correct. It's not correct in all cases and perhaps it was a poorly chosen form of words, but it's not saying that people will be forced to miss it.
That's not what he's said. It is, however, what the barrier staff said to the OP at Birmingham New Street. That comment does deserve a letter and I hope London Midland get one.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Yay this old chestnut again
But it's true. It's not the "I pay your wages" nonsense. The railway serves passengers, and as staff we should try to make people enjoy it. After all, we all like trains, don't we? I consider travelling by train to be one of life's simpler pleasures, and long may it stay as simple and trouble free as we can make it.
But catching the 0931 is following the rules. Yorkie has pointed out the possible importance of needing to catch the 0931. And even if there's no pressing reason, why can't the passenger take it if he so wishes?
I'm not criticising you or your colleagues, but surely you can see that particular policy can be at best obstructive and officious, and at worst it could cost the company money.
I don't think allowing three minutes or less for a Freedom Pass holder is appropriate. Let us consider the sort of people that hold these passes...
I don't know if SWT encourage or welcome staff making suggestions about policy. But if that's the case I'm glad I don't work for them.
Well, clarification of what "I doubt someone would take a "dim view" of missing the 09:31 when there are services at 09:32, 09:33, 09:34 etc...!" means, and under what circumstances would someone who presented themselves at the gates in good time for the 0931 end up not taking the 0931? If the answer is "none" then the statement was completely unnecessary.
An example where someone may be "forced" (though the word is not used) to miss it is if they had a lot of luggage or were not very physically able, and were using an entrance that was not very near the platform. Letting someone in just 3 minutes before the wheels are supposed to start turning under such circumstances would be unacceptable. But if safeguards are in place to prevent this then there is no need for the statement about "missing" the 0931.
If there are assurances that any customer wishing to take the 0931 will be allowed to do so, and in good time from whichever entrance they use to whichever platform it is, without having to rush at all, then there really is no need for such comments and we can all agree and there is no issue.
But the quote as it is gives me cause for concern. But if a mistake has been made, and it's retracted or clarified, then that's absolutely fine
First of all I'm not trying to bash Molesey - my gripe is with his London Area Manager. I have a lot of sympathy and respect for all front-line staff
Here's a realistic scenario. A passenger with a megatrain/advance ticket on 1L23 09:50 waterloo-salisbury. Such passenger is required to leave 5 minutes at Waterloo (in the absence of anything else written down for WAT) so coming from Clapham they really need to be on that 09:31 arr 09:42 - the 09:35 arr 09:48 is just too late - and yes they can argue their case at Waterloo/with the guard on the following salisbury, and yes they are in the right.... but massive hassle.
That's a decision for SWT to make (ie deployment of RPI's) - I personally think the role of the non-commercial guard should be consigned to the history books.
No - the passenger needs to allow the interchange time set down in the various documents. Not buy an unnecessary peak ticket because they fear over-zealous London Area Revenue Managers.
Portsmouth 10:00 and Weymouth 10:05 ex WAT by the way hence I've changed to Salisbury.
Here's a realistic scenario. A passenger with a megatrain/advance ticket on 1L23 09:50 waterloo-salisbury. Such passenger is required to leave 5 minutes at Waterloo (in the absence of anything else written down for WAT) so coming from Clapham they really need to be on that 09:31 arr 09:42 - the 09:35 arr 09:48 is just too late - and yes they can argue their case at Waterloo/with the guard on the following salisbury, and yes they are in the right.... but massive hassle.
That's a decision for SWT to make (ie deployment of RPI's) - I personally think the role of the non-commercial guard should be consigned to the history books.
No - the passenger needs to allow the interchange time set down in the various documents. Not buy an unnecessary peak ticket because they fear over-zealous London Area Revenue Managers.
Portsmouth 10:00 and Weymouth 10:05 ex WAT by the way hence I've changed to Salisbury.
Actually you'll find that megatrain want you there 15 minutes before the scheduled departure time as I found out on a recent trip to Southampton. I think that probably overrides any other minimum connection time in respect of megatrain tickets.
I have had this trouble on several occasions at Bedford. The ticket barriers are programmed not to accept off-peak tickets until what I understood to be 5 minutes before the first service on which they can be used.
Inevitably, there is then a crush to get to the platform when the tickets can be put through. On my last visit, I pointed out that because of my eyesight, it takes me a bit longer to get up and over the bridge, and also that I'd rather do it not being pushed and shoved by a lot of other people, but the gateline staff were having none of it (despite me waving my railcard at them!). I did grumble to FCC about this but they couldn't think of any possible solution on the basis that if I were allowed through, everyone else would want to. I do see this point but it's not exactly meeting passenger needs.
David
Inevitably, there is then a crush to get to the platform when the tickets can be put through. On my last visit, I pointed out that because of my eyesight, it takes me a bit longer to get up and over the bridge, and also that I'd rather do it not being pushed and shoved by a lot of other people, but the gateline staff were having none of it (despite me waving my railcard at them!). I did grumble to FCC about this but they couldn't think of any possible solution on the basis that if I were allowed through, everyone else would want to. I do see this point but it's not exactly meeting passenger needs.
David
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Does Megatrain bod with the checklist refuse boarding if you aren't there at 15 minutes before departure then?
Noted with thanks. Apart from a ride with a driver I knew (from victoria coach stn to Finchley road) I've never had the pleasure of megabus/megatrain so not au fait with their special T&C.
Someone has PM'd me a link to a nationalrail webpage for waterloo where 15 mins (for normal passengers) is given as the minimum interchange time.
I got 5 mins from a file called commercial information.pdf which is the white/blue/pink pages of the printed national rail timetable.
This same doc gives 53 mins from Waterloo to Euston.
dcmbarton - write to FCC (note that FirstGroup Customer Service staff can be shocking so be prepared to keep writing to them if you do not get a satisfactory answer initially. It can take up to 3 attempts to speak to someone who understands and has some knowledge of the rail industry).
- Inform them of your travel requirements (ie, train & station, and ticket required/held)
- If you wish to buy a ticket, ask them when you should aim to arrive at the ticket office to allow sufficient time to make the purchase
- Ask them when you should make your way from the station entrance towards the platform, bearing in mind health & safety issues and your poor eyesight.
For example a forum member was told by Flitwick ticket office that he could not purchase a ticket from the ticket office until it was too late to take the train. FCC Customer Services eventually stated "I can confirm that you should be able to purchase your Off Peak ticket from Flitwick to London with a Network Railcard from the ticket office at Flitwick at any time..." which is the right answer "Off Peak - Buy any time, travel off peak" (NRE). Had they insisted their staff were correct to deny this I would have escalated the matter and contacted London Travelwatch/Passenger Focus, ATOC, etc and advised the customer to contact his MP if that did not settle it.
The key is to state your requirements and ask them for advice. If the advice is sufficient, bring it with you to show to any staff who do not act correctly. If the advice is not sufficient, keep asking and escalate it if necessary.
Edit: just to add, I asked FCC what to do and made no mention of the problems experienced (by another member), the problem with stating what happened and that you believe it to be incorrect is that sometimes they will just blindly agree with staff. By asking what you should do, the ball is in their court to state terms that you can either accept or dispute.
- Inform them of your travel requirements (ie, train & station, and ticket required/held)
- If you wish to buy a ticket, ask them when you should aim to arrive at the ticket office to allow sufficient time to make the purchase
- Ask them when you should make your way from the station entrance towards the platform, bearing in mind health & safety issues and your poor eyesight.
For example a forum member was told by Flitwick ticket office that he could not purchase a ticket from the ticket office until it was too late to take the train. FCC Customer Services eventually stated "I can confirm that you should be able to purchase your Off Peak ticket from Flitwick to London with a Network Railcard from the ticket office at Flitwick at any time..." which is the right answer "Off Peak - Buy any time, travel off peak" (NRE). Had they insisted their staff were correct to deny this I would have escalated the matter and contacted London Travelwatch/Passenger Focus, ATOC, etc and advised the customer to contact his MP if that did not settle it.
The key is to state your requirements and ask them for advice. If the advice is sufficient, bring it with you to show to any staff who do not act correctly. If the advice is not sufficient, keep asking and escalate it if necessary.
Edit: just to add, I asked FCC what to do and made no mention of the problems experienced (by another member), the problem with stating what happened and that you believe it to be incorrect is that sometimes they will just blindly agree with staff. By asking what you should do, the ball is in their court to state terms that you can either accept or dispute.
Can I just say that as a passenger I find it unacceptable that some gateline staff think it's ok to only let passengers through with only minutes to spare until the train they wish to catch is due to depart. I also take issue with this "oh they can catch the next one" excuse. Excuse me, but we (ie the passenger) will take what ever train we wish and are entitled to take, and who are you to say we can't?
If this is the policy SWT tell their staff to apply, that would explain my experience at Southampton last year when a valid ticket was rejected by the barrier.
Pity I wasn't aware at the time as I would have taken it further. At least I now know, should it happen again.
WelshBluebird
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Personally I am shocked and quite disgusting that some staff are being told not to allow people onto the platform like this.
What if the person is elderly or has trouble walking? 3 minutes would not be enough.
They have a valid ticket, there is no reason at all why they should be prevented from getting their train.
And as Yorkie has said, if this policy does mean that someone misses a train, I hope that the ToC involved would pay any money needed to the passenger if they got hassled for missing a connecting service.
What if the person is elderly or has trouble walking? 3 minutes would not be enough.
They have a valid ticket, there is no reason at all why they should be prevented from getting their train.
And as Yorkie has said, if this policy does mean that someone misses a train, I hope that the ToC involved would pay any money needed to the passenger if they got hassled for missing a connecting service.
TheJRB
Established Member
At Ashford I (with my grandfather) have been allowed through the gates with over an hour before the first off peak train to our destination. We were simply instructed that we would have to wait for the 09:43 to St Pancras, avoiding the 09:13. Seems OK to me.
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