When it IS a Good Idea for Passengers to go on to the Track

Speedbird2639 · 25 Jan 2012

michael769 said:
When would I go trackside?

When the trainmanager and and driver leap from the carriage with their clothes and hair on fire.

"Train Manager"? - I presume you mean the ticket inspector/ salesman?

Its just like binmen being called 'environmental executives'

And to answer the question - how many £50 notes wld it take to gt me on the track? One - just the one (actually I wld probably go on the track for a £5)

The self righteous smugness (and pedantry) on this site is unbelieveable some times

RailUK Forums

ainsworth74 · 25 Jan 2012

Speedbird2639 said:
"Train Manager"? - I presume you mean the ticket inspector/ salesman?

A TM is another name for a guard/conductor (it varies by company which is used) and is more than a simple ticket inspector/examiner (they are for example involved in dispatch duties).

Flamingo · 25 Jan 2012

Speedbird2639 said:
"Train Manager"? - I presume you mean the ticket inspector/ salesman?

Its just like binmen being called 'environmental executives'

Ticket examination, although the most public face of the role, is what we do when we are bored. It is not the aim of the role, it is something to keep us busy when nothing else is going on.

See what my colleague has to say about it http://www.joinusonthejourney.co.uk/mark.aspx

Speedbird2639 said:
And to answer the question - how many £50 notes wld it take to gt me on the track? One - just the one (actually I wld probably go on the track for a £5)

Nice to know you place so low a value on your life. Remember that when insuring it.

Speedbird2639 said:
The self righteous smugness (and pedantry) on this site is unbelieveable some times

The difference is, we know what we are talking about, you obviously do not.

Tim R-T-C · 25 Jan 2012

Flamingo said:
Well, I suppose if you were flying at 30 000 feet in your Tornado jet, and you had a huge birdstrike, and your plane blew up, and you ejected, and were badly injured and coming down on your parachute, and were blinded by the crash and couldn't see where you were landing and landed on the track it would be ok.

You are right, we should ban OLE, much too dangerous for pilots.

ralphchadkirk · 25 Jan 2012

Speedbird2639 said:
The self righteous smugness (and pedantry) on this site is unbelieveable some times

I'd rather be self-righteous than splattered across the front of the 0928 Waterloo service for the sake of £5.

150222 · 25 Jan 2012

wensley said:
Quite, although arguable the sighting at Northallerton makes it about as safe as you could ever be performing such an action. Still, no risks can be taken at 125

What about the Yarm branch?

Badger · 25 Jan 2012

There must be some point where dropped cargo could represent a disk to the train. Size of some handbags these days.

150222 · 25 Jan 2012

If I dropped my bag or saw a tenner on the track (unless it was third-rail) I would get it. Though only if a train had just passed as I know there would not be another for at least a couple of minutes. (I know about block signalling).

nedchester · 25 Jan 2012

Look away now:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nedchester/6653562035/

ralphchadkirk · 25 Jan 2012

150222 said:
If I dropped my bag or saw a tenner on the track (unless it was third-rail) I would get it. Though only if a train had just passed as I know there would not be another for at least a couple of minutes. (I know about block signalling).

I can't even be bothered to point out how wrong this statement is...

wensley · 25 Jan 2012

ralphchadkirk said:
I can't even be bothered to point out how wrong this statement is...

Trains can approach on any line at any time without warning...'nuf said.
Eaglescliffe Branch is a hazard in the Up Direction at Northallerton, incident regarding iPhone was on the Down so I'm afraid I'd overlooked it :oops:

Flamingo · 25 Jan 2012

Tim R-T-C said:
You are right, we should ban OLE, much too dangerous for pilots.

Well, the safe distance above OLE is infinity, so theoretically every time anybody flies over it, they are in breach of rules...

Temple Meads · 25 Jan 2012

Speedbird2639 said:
for a £5)

The self righteous smugness (and pedantry) on this site is unbelieveable some times

I wouldn't go that far, but I think a little less seriousness and a tad more humour would be good at times.

Anyway, I don't think there is a hard and fast answer to this matter, it all comes down to time, place and situation IMO..

jon0844 · 25 Jan 2012

wensley said:
Yes, but not permitted to use it. A sackable offence I'm informed due to the linespeed and obvious risks, althought with care they would only be slight.

I've seen them use the gripper to pick up dropped items at Finsbury Park, and at Hatfield. Staff remain on the platform, so the risks are pretty minimal - and they won't do it on their own so there's somebody keeping watch.

Badger said:
There must be some point where dropped cargo could represent a disk to the train. Size of some handbags these days.

If my wife dropped her handbag on the tracks, the resulting carnage would make international news!

150222 said:
If I dropped my bag or saw a tenner on the track (unless it was third-rail) I would get it. Though only if a train had just passed as I know there would not be another for at least a couple of minutes. (I know about block signalling).

You might be right, but anyone around you wouldn't know that you knew - and if you were in any way distracted, or tripped, then that time may run out and you're screwed.

If you dropped your bag, you tell staff and (in my experience, although others have said otherwise at different stations) they'll do whatever they can to help. It may mean missing a train or two, but you dropped the bag and have to accept the inconvenience. However, you'll still be alive at the end of it which seems like a bonus.

If you drop a tenner, I'd seriously consider writing it off. Is it worth maybe hanging around for ages for staff to come out and get it for you or stop the trains?

transmanche · 25 Jan 2012

Flamingo said:
Any more outlandish situations? :roll:

All through this discussion, I keep thinking of one particular foot crossing - on the Tyne Valley line, between Corbridge and Hexham. I use it fairly often, as it's part of a nice walking route. (You can just make out the path in the link. There are steps up to track level and gates on either side.) But the crossing has no boards of any kind, you're just walking across ballast and track.

It's not an overly busy route (generally 2 tph in each direction, plus freight) and the sightlines for pedestrians are good, as the track is straight at that point.

I'm always wary when crossing the track here - i don't like the fact you're walking across track & ballast. But having read the rest of the thread, I'm really surprised that the crossing has been left like this.

Flamingo · 25 Jan 2012

transmanche said:
All through this discussion, I keep thinking of one particular foot crossing - on the Tyne Valley line, between Corbridge and Hexham. I use it fairly often, as it's part of a nice walking route. (You can just make out the path in the link. There are steps up to track level and gates on either side.) But the crossing has no boards of any kind, you're just walking across ballast and track.

It's not an overly busy route (generally 2 tph in each direction, plus freight) and the sightlines for pedestrians are good, as the track is straight at that point.

I'm always wary when crossing the track here - i don't like the fact you're walking across track & ballast. But having read the rest of the thread, I'm really surprised that the crossing has been left like this.

That's fair enough, it's some of the "what if" scenarios that people come up with (or even more scarily, the "Well I would..." scenarios) that make one get impatient.

edited to add: Although looking at the googleearth picture, it should be "when are sheep safe to go on the line"

150222 · 25 Jan 2012

jonmorris0844 said:
I've seen them use the gripper to pick up dropped items at Finsbury Park. Staff remain on the platform, so the risks are pretty minimal.

You might be right, but anyone around you wouldn't know that you knew - and if you were in any way distracted, or tripped, then that time may run out and you're screwed.
If you dropped your bag, you tell staff and (in my experience, although others have said otherwise at different stations) they'll do whatever they can to help. It may mean missing a train or two, but you dropped the bag and have to accept the inconvenience. However, you'll still be alive at the end of it which seems like a bonus.
If you drop a tenner, I'd seriously consider writing it off. Is it worth maybe hanging around for ages for staff to come out and get it for you or stop the trains?

For a tenner then I guess I wouldn't bother. I am mainly on about unstaffed stations so it's more complicated than that.

tsr · 25 Jan 2012

Badger said:
There must be some point where dropped cargo could represent a disk to the train. Size of some handbags these days.

One of these days, a passenger will have one of those massive hard-shelled wheeled suitcases on an LU (or similar) line platform, they'll let go of it to check they have their ticket, or whatever, and it will end up falling onto the line, out of reach, wedged between the rails. In fact, I imagine it happens fairly frequently.

If this happened in front of me, I would have a dilemma. I wouldn't go onto the track, nor would I allow anyone else to do so.

So, do I push the emergency stop button, on the basis that the item is covering several rails and is a large, hard obstacle, or do I chance the help point emergency button - often these do not appear to have their power supply light illuminated, and I have seen people try to use them without any reply from an operator? Let's bear in mind that LU lines often have a train every two minutes or so, and the staff couldn't remove the obstruction in that time. If I pushed the emergency stop, and it turned out that the obstacle could have been knocked out of the way by the train quite easily, would I be punished?

This has not happened to me, by the way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Tim R-T-C said:
Did the staff not have a grabber? Saw one of the staff at Keighley using one earlier on what looked like a mobile phone dropped by the tracks, it was one of those long handled grabbers similar to what street cleaners use to pick up rubbish. Would make sense to make these standard issue.

Once, my mother was wearing a fairly insubstantial shoe, and it slipped off her foot and onto the tracks at London Bridge station, whilst she was alighting from her terminating service. I am told that staff retrieved it by reaching into the gap between the train and the platform with a grabber or something similar. This was thirty or so years ago, mind you, so policies have likely changed.

wensley · 26 Jan 2012

jonmorris0844 said:
I've seen them use the gripper to pick up dropped items at Finsbury Park, and at Hatfield. Staff remain on the platform, so the risks are pretty minimal - and they won't do it on their own so there's somebody keeping watch.

There-in lies another problem...Northallerton's Station is single manned after 1400hrs

transmanche said:
All through this discussion, I keep thinking of one particular foot crossing - on the Tyne Valley line, between Corbridge and Hexham. I use it fairly often, as it's part of a nice walking route. (You can just make out the path in the link. There are steps up to track level and gates on either side.) But the crossing has no boards of any kind, you're just walking across ballast and track.

It's not an overly busy route (generally 2 tph in each direction, plus freight) and the sightlines for pedestrians are good, as the track is straight at that point.

I'm always wary when crossing the track here - i don't like the fact you're walking across track & ballast. But having read the rest of the thread, I'm really surprised that the crossing has been left like this.

There is a crossing like this at north of Northallerton, against Northallerton Reversing Line (Castle Hills Jn). Linespeed at this point is 125mph, ou cross the two track mainline then there is a fenced 'refuge' before you cross the spur onto the Wensleydale Railway. Despite being well signedit would be far too easy for someone to wander down the track here and the stepping surface is poor - luckily concrete sleepers don't get as slippy as wooden ones!

WCML · 26 Jan 2012

Oh dear. Some really are a little too precious on here. What if there was a fire on board and it was encroaching on the carriage you were in? Say it was a diesel unit, what are the chances that the diesel could catch fire? What if the temperatures in the carriage became unbearable or there were noxious fumes being given off?

Yeah. Really good idea to stay on the train.

Obviously it would be more risky to jump off on a section of 4 tracks or in an area where there was no refuge next to the tracks, but on a 2 track section where there is reasonable visibility, what would be wrong with forcing the doors open, looking both ways, checking, and crossing the line to take refuge on say a patch of grass next to the tracks?

If there was any sort of fire on board and there was sufficient space to take refuge next to the tracks, then i'd want to be straight off.

Flamingo · 26 Jan 2012

WCML said:
Oh dear. Some really are a little too precious on here. What if there was a fire on board and it was encroaching on the carriage you were in? Say it was a diesel unit, what are the chances that the diesel could catch fire? What if the temperatures in the carriage became unbearable or there were noxious fumes being given off?

Yeah. Really good idea to stay on the train.

Obviously it would be more risky to jump off on a section of 4 tracks or in an area where there was no refuge next to the tracks, but on a 2 track section where there is reasonable visibility, what would be wrong with forcing the doors open, looking both ways, checking, and crossing the line to take refuge on say a patch of grass next to the tracks?

If there was any sort of fire on board and there was sufficient space to take refuge next to the tracks, then i'd want to be straight off.

Speaking of precious, read the posts on the thread before going off on your high horse :roll: All your points have already been addressed by the professionals.

WCML · 26 Jan 2012

Flamingo said:
Speaking of precious, read the posts on the thread before going off on your high horse :roll: All your points have already been addressed by the professionals.

So how is crossing the tracks any more dangerous than crossing the A50 for instance or getting out of your vehicle on the hard shoulder of a motorway?

Or in fact, as a previous poster says, crossing the tracks as a pedestrian? There are several foot crossings around the Stone area. There's 2 LM 350s, 4 XC Voyagers and 4 Pendolinos going through there every hour yet it is deemed safe to cross the tracks. How is that different to fleeing a burning train?

Flamingo · 26 Jan 2012

WCML said:
So how is crossing the tracks any more dangerous than crossing the A50 for instance or getting out of your vehicle on the hard shoulder of a motorway?

Or in fact, as a previous poster says, crossing the tracks as a pedestrian? There are several foot crossings around the Stone area. There's 2 LM 350s, 4 XC Voyagers and 4 Pendolinos going through there every hour yet it is deemed safe to cross the tracks. How is that different to fleeing a burning train?

If you can't figure any of that out for yourself, you probably should not be allowed out of the house unaccompanied. I'm not wasting my time explaining it ad infinitum.

If all you want to do is prove what a rugged individualist you are in your own mind, then go ahead, fill t'net with bone posts.

WCML · 26 Jan 2012

Flamingo said:
If you can't figure any of that out for yourself, you probably should not be allowed out of the house unaccompanied. I'm not wasting my time explaining it ad infinitum.

If all you want to do is prove what a rugged individualist you are in your own mind, then go ahead, fill t'net with bone posts.

Deary me.

So the train is on fire. I am about to die.

100 yards down the track for arguments sake, it is safe for me to cross as long as I "Stop, Look and Listen" when there are at least 10tph running.

It is possible to force the doors open, you can clearly see in both directions.

The only dangers reasonably forseeable are falling when disembarking from the train or not crossing the single line quick enough and being struck by a passing train. In this instance surely you would be able to hear a train coming anyway?

Plus, I'd rather take that chance, than burn to death, whilst waiting for the Train Manager ....

pemma · 26 Jan 2012

ralphchadkirk said:
I can't even be bothered to point out how wrong this statement is...

In all honesty while no-one should trespass on the railways, it's very likely someone will trespass to get money dropped unless it's a mainline or 3rd rail electrified line, so someone with some idea of what uses the line reclaiming it could prevent someone with no idea running out in front of an ECS move.

wensley · 26 Jan 2012

WCML said:
Anyway why are many parties calling these roles "Train Managers" anyway. In the pedantic, bordering on autistic manner of this site, is the driver not the 'Train Manager' as he is actually controlling/managing the operations of the train.

The driver is...erm...well...driving the train!!!
The job title varies, the Guard/Conductor/TM is responsible for passenger safety and a significant part of the duties required to operate the train, it is he who would be responsible for the passengers in the event of an incident, while the driver is responsible for the train.

It is highly unlikely that the entire train would be on fire, unless it was a single car DMU you would be far safer in another vehicle until a properly organised evacuation could be effected.

WCML said:
The only dangers reasonably forseeable are falling when disembarking from the train or not crossing the single line quick enough and being struck by a passing train. In this instance surely you would be able to hear a train coming anyway?

*Shakes Head* The dangers are innumerable, surely you would be leaving the train onto the cess, not into the six foot where the dangers are far greater. I've already mentioned some of the other risks if you cared to read the rest of the thread and I'm not going to list them again.

And, if you leave the train, the other passengers will follow suit. It's not just one person cleariong the track that's the problem. Crossings have sight lines and drivers expect them, they do not expect passengers trespassing on the running line.

WCML said:
So how is crossing the tracks any more dangerous than crossing the A50 for instance or getting out of your vehicle on the hard shoulder of a motorway?

When was the last time you saw a 1000t car travelling at 125mph on the A50 exactly?!

Nonsense · 26 Jan 2012

This type of thread amuse me. I had to double check that the title wasn't "When IS it a good idea to have a teddy bears picnic on the mainline approach to a London terminus during rush hour". Some of reactions I have read give the impression that the railway is so dangerous that just looking at it, from a distance, can cause fatal injuries.

Its probably safe to assume that most posters here have a passing interest in railways and are likely aware that those two metal rails are used by very large heavy fast moving things, and being stood too close while such a thing passes is going to sting a bit.

Perhaps the question should be:

"When is it a bad idea not to go on to the tracks?"

I'm sure that there are scenarios, maybe there could be a fun discussion about them.

wensley · 26 Jan 2012

Nonsense said:
Perhaps the question should be:

"When is it a bad idea not to go on to the tracks?"

I'm sure that there are scenarios, maybe there could be a fun discussion about them.

In General Discussion, maybe, the OP asked a question and he's got the answers, which people clearly don't like or respect. That sort of thread would just generate utter drivel from people with over-active imaginations!

150222 · 26 Jan 2012

WCML said:
Deary me.

So the train is on fire. I am about to die.

100 yards down the track for arguments sake, it is safe for me to cross as long as I "Stop, Look and Listen" when there are at least 10tph running.

It is possible to force the doors open, you can clearly see in both directions.

The only dangers reasonably forseeable are falling when disembarking from the train or not crossing the single line quick enough and being struck by a passing train. In this instance surely you would be able to hear a train coming anyway?

Plus, I'd rather take that chance, than burn to death, whilst waiting for the Train Manager ...

Haven't you ever been told not to take your belongings during a fire? (E.G at a school fire drill)

Hydro · 26 Jan 2012

I'm amused by the frequently recurring assumption you can easily hear a train coming and dodge it.

When it IS a Good Idea for Passengers to go on to the Track

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