Heritage railways: The end or a new start?

Tiny Tim · 8 Jan 2012

We now have a huge heritage railway industry in this country, with new track being opened on what seems like a weekly basis. Presumably the market for people to gawp at elderly steam locos is finite, so eventually market saturation will be reached. How much more track can we sustain? Is it time for a new generation of heritage line (like the Great Central) providing main line style facilities over serious distances or is there a serious opportunity for new railways to provide a mixture of heritage and public transport?

RailUK Forums

Techniquest · 8 Jan 2012

When was the last heritage railway to expand then? Evidentally I'm missing a lot of action if it feels like it's every week something new opens...

Tiny Tim · 8 Jan 2012

Techniquest said:
When was the last heritage railway to expand then? Evidentally I'm missing a lot of action if it feels like it's every week something new opens...

Since the Welsh Highland added 25 miles to the heritage total last year the Rother Valley Railway have been busy rebuilding the link between Robertsbridge and Bodiam; The Bluebell Railway is close to completing it's East Grinstead extension; Various bits of the former Somerset & Dorset now boast more track; The Swanage Railway now runs to Swanage. The Dartmoor railway has already extended West to Meldon and will soon reach the main line at Yeoford; Llangollen; Spa Valley; Lynton & Barnstaple; Blaenavon. These are just the bits I can think of right now.

YorkshireBear · 8 Jan 2012

And all the little ones forming too. You have some in norfolk the plym valley one. I think straphsey want extension. Elsecar heritage railway are in process of going to cortonwood.

Lots and lots of little ones are appearing. I unfortunately think we are past saturation. Although i have hopes that in the long term, ( i am talking 100 years) they will become public transport links in a modern less carbon greedy world

steamybrian · 8 Jan 2012

In 2011 I travelled over the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway extension to Duffield as well as the Welsh Highland Railway extension to Porthmadog.
Peak Rail also extended to Matlock (Network Rail) station.

In 2012 look out for the opening of-
Rother Valley Railway-Robertsbridge to Northbridge Street
Llangollen Railway - Carrog- Bonwm and later in the year on to a temporary station at the outskirts of Corwen.
Bluebell Railway- Track planned to be linked Kingscote-East Grinstead although public opening maybe in 2013.
Northampton & Lamport Railway have track laid on their extension to Boughton but unsure if it will open in 2012.

chris89 · 8 Jan 2012

Still going on with a lot of rumors and specuatation on extending the SVR.

Chiltern have trialed some direct services to London but nothing come of them sadly what is ashame.

Mean while for the SVR the line is closed for 6 weeks for maintance and other things that are needed, Including relaying the track in the Tunnel between Bewdley and Kidderminster.

Chris

PUFFINGBILLY · 8 Jan 2012

Apparently the Bluebell is planning a triangle at Horsted Keynes then maybe resurrect the branch to Ardingly and on to Haywards Heath

Techniquest · 9 Jan 2012

Tiny Tim said:
Since the Welsh Highland added 25 miles to the heritage total last year the Rother Valley Railway have been busy rebuilding the link between Robertsbridge and Bodiam; The Bluebell Railway is close to completing it's East Grinstead extension; Various bits of the former Somerset & Dorset now boast more track; The Swanage Railway now runs to Swanage. The Dartmoor railway has already extended West to Meldon and will soon reach the main line at Yeoford; Llangollen; Spa Valley; Lynton & Barnstaple; Blaenavon. These are just the bits I can think of right now.

Well yes, the WHR was one of the biggest preservation expansions in recent years. Must remember to get on it this year and finally do the Ffestiniog at long last too.

Rother Valley Railway, it would be nice to see that finally connected to the mainline to some extent. Not aware of any S+D extensions, and the Bluebell's extension is most keenly awaited by most of us. As for Swanage, it's only available to occasional charter traffic at the moment I believe.

When did the Dartmoor lot extend west? Would be good to see it finally reach Yeoford. Blaenavon, yes I had forgotten about that but that was in 2010 so not exactly recent. Lyton and Barnstaple, what's going on there then?

Finally, would be good to see the Llangollen extend west. It would be superb if it could go east to Ruabon, but alas I don't see that ever happening.

341o2 · 10 Jan 2012

can I clarify some of the above.

The Dartmoor railway uses existing track and infrastructure which survived the closure of almost all the former LSWR west of Exeter to serve Meldon Ballast Quarry. At the moment, they operate Okehampton - Meldon although a visit to their site showed Santa and mince pie specials operating eastwards to former stations at Bow and North Tawton

Summer Sunday services run between Exeter and Okehampton provided by the national rail network the DR plans to extend services eastward to Yeoford again over existing track, thus providing a regular connection with the Barnstaple line

The Swanage railway always intended to get back to Wareham, at the moment the crossing gates at Norden need to be upgraded, and the signal box at Corfe Castle is in the process of being connected to the national network. Again, track as far as Furzebrook has survived. Until this work has been completed, only charter trains are running between Swanage and the national network

The OP's question has been asked many times since the dawn of the preservation movement

MK Tom · 10 Jan 2012

Let's not forget the GWR extension to Broadway, the Llangollen to Corwen, the Cambrian Railways Trust, The Helston Railway in Cornwall (which is amazing, they've built from nothing in phenominal time), the recently opened Ecclesbourne Valley Railway through to Duffield, the Cauldon Low line, Mountsorrel, the list goes on...

The NLR Boughton extension won't open this year as we still have to complete track laying in the station site and do a load of work on the bridge at the south end of the current line. (EDIT - unless there's something planned I don't know about, that was the situation at my last check)

Does anybody know what's happening with the Chinnor & PRR extending into Risborough itself?

JoeGJ1984 · 10 Jan 2012

Techniquest said:
It would be superb if it could go east to Ruabon, but alas I don't see that ever happening.

I wouldn't say that was out of the question. Yes, they'll get the extension west to Corwen first, but then I don't see why they can't get mainline connected at Ruabon. Would enable people from, say, Merseyside to get the train to Ruabon to connect, and so IMO that would attract people (as it is, it's difficult to get to by public transport).

This seems to be a regular question. I went on the Llangollen Railway last September and the steam train was fairly well loaded, even at an off-peak time (if they can bring in visitors off-peak like this, they must be doing pretty well).

mikado · 10 Jan 2012

about Ruabon extension it was a project seriously mooted 20-25 years ago!(a carriage or wagon I cant remember was placed near the station) ..........alas pushed far away since!(why????)
regards
Noel

341o2 · 10 Jan 2012

MK Tom said:
The Helston Railway in Cornwall (which is amazing, they've built from nothing in phenominal time)

Is there an update on the Helston railway as there appears to have been an issue regarding access to their site.

The Lynton & Barnstaple have opened the first section, and declare their intention of eventually reopening the entire line

Its interesting to see a new generation, because only those aged 50+ will be able to recall commercial steam on BR, fascinated by steam locomotives - nearly every preserved railway seems to have a Thomas event

Tim R-T-C · 10 Jan 2012

Glad to see lots of lines expanding, but my worry is that as time goes on the cost of keeping steam engines in running order will continue to increase - just on the KWVR they have several locos in long term maintenance with expired boiler certificates that may never run again. Me might have lovely long lines, but no steam engines to run on them.

Tiny Tim · 10 Jan 2012

Tim R-T-C said:
Glad to see lots of lines expanding, but my worry is that as time goes on the cost of keeping steam engines in running order will continue to increase - just on the KWVR they have several locos in long term maintenance with expired boiler certificates that may never run again. Me might have lovely long lines, but no steam engines to run on them.

I hesitate to state the number of preserved steam locos in this country, estimates vary, but suffice it to say, there's no shortage of potential motive power. Obviously only a small proportion of this is in steam at any one time. Over and above preserved engines we now have the Tornado generation of of new steam. Our heritage railways are largely not 'lovely long lines'; The Welsh Highland/Festiniog, by far and away the longest, is narrow gauge, and the West Somerset (about 20 miles) is the longest standard gauge in use. Most heritage railways are light railways and are not the best place to show off big main line locos.

Do we need more heritage track mileage? If we do it needs to be twin track mainline standard (e.g. Great Central) and long enough to give the likes of Flying Scotsman a chance to shine.

dubscottie · 11 Jan 2012

Without nit-picking, shouldn't most of them not be classed as "Restored" not "Preserved" railways?

In most cases when the groups moved onto a site everything was gone.

For example the WHR and the SRPS at Bo'ness are in effect new builds as very little or nothing existed of the railway when the arrived and little of what they have is original to that line (other than the trackbed).

However the likes of the NYMR has "preserved" what the found when they took over and most of the infrastructure is original.

I can see a lot of the smaller lines failing due to lack of demand because they are in the wrong location, away from tourists. However the extensions to the Strathspey for example and if they can, the NYMR would bring them within a bigger tourist market.

steamybrian · 11 Jan 2012

JoeGJ1984 said:
I wouldn't say that was out of the question. Yes, they'll get the extension west to Corwen first, but then I don't see why they can't get mainline connected at Ruabon. Would enable people from, say, Merseyside to get the train to Ruabon to connect, and so IMO that would attract people (as it is, it's difficult to get to by public transport).

This seems to be a regular question. I went on the Llangollen Railway last September and the steam train was fairly well loaded, even at an off-peak time (if they can bring in visitors off-peak like this, they must be doing pretty well).

Extending to Ruabon- Just east of Llangollen the trackbed has been built over by a block of flats and further on by an industrial estate. I understand that in the Acrefair/ Trevor area the trackbed has been redeveloped. Finally getting locos and stock certified to run over Network Rail tracks into Ruabon would be a major undertaking. The cost of extending to Corwen (with the undisturbed trackbed in situ) is costing millions of pounds so how much would extending the track to Ruabon cost?
There is a frequent bus service between Ruabon station and Llangollen station I believe every 15 minutes during the daytime.

MK Tom · 11 Jan 2012

dubscottie said:
Without nit-picking, shouldn't most of them not be classed as "Restored" not "Preserved" railways?

In most cases when the groups moved onto a site everything was gone.

For example the WHR and the SRPS at Bo'ness are in effect new builds as very little or nothing existed of the railway when the arrived and little of what they have is original to that line (other than the trackbed).

However the likes of the NYMR has "preserved" what the found when they took over and most of the infrastructure is original.

If you think about it though, every line has to eventually re-lay their track at some point, especially if they're as busy as the NYMR or the WSR or that kind of line. So platforms and stuff are original but everything has to get rebuilt or replaced at some point.

YorkshireBear · 11 Jan 2012

MK Tom said:
If you think about it though, every line has to eventually re-lay their track at some point, especially if they're as busy as the NYMR or the WSR or that kind of line. So platforms and stuff are original but everything has to get rebuilt or replaced at some point.

Yeah exactly, we now have concrete flat bottom track on KWVR. Not orriginal track as that used ash as ballast and was wooden sleeper bull head track.

43021HST · 11 Jan 2012

steamybrian said:
Extending to Ruabon- Just east of Llangollen the trackbed has been built over by a block of flats and further on by an industrial estate. I understand that in the Acrefair/ Trevor area the trackbed has been redeveloped. Finally getting locos and stock certified to run over Network Rail tracks into Ruabon would be a major undertaking. The cost of extending to Corwen (with the undisturbed trackbed in situ) is costing millions of pounds so how much would extending the track to Ruabon cost?
There is a frequent bus service between Ruabon station and Llangollen station I believe every 15 minutes during the daytime.

An article I have found regarding the Llangollen railway extension to Ruabon.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmtran/169/169we24.htm

If you look on google maps these obsticles can be avoided. I think the extension to Ruabon is absolutely necessary, the traffic in Llangollen is diabolical and at the hieght of the summer the bus service is reguarly overcrowded.

mikado · 11 Jan 2012

steamybrian said:
Extending to Ruabon- Just east of Llangollen the trackbed has been built over by a block of flats and further on by an industrial estate. I understand that in the Acrefair/ Trevor area the trackbed has been redeveloped. Finally getting locos and stock certified to run over Network Rail tracks into Ruabon would be a major undertaking. The cost of extending to Corwen (with the undisturbed trackbed in situ) is costing millions of pounds so how much would extending the track to Ruabon cost?
There is a frequent bus service between Ruabon station and Llangollen station I believe every 15 minutes during the daytime.

.........some years ago an extension to Bala was mooted too!
regards
noel

341o2 · 5 Feb 2012

MK Tom said:
If you think about it though, every line has to eventually re-lay their track at some point, especially if they're as busy as the NYMR or the WSR or that kind of line. So platforms and stuff are original but everything has to get rebuilt or replaced at some point.

Perhaps we should ask what has been preserved, as anything which gets used, will eventually wear out.

It's been said that there has been more history of the Tallyllyn in the preservation era, and it had literally been worked to death, so had to change with additional rolling stock, the two original engines rebuilt so as to be effectively replicas, the need to fit continuous air brakes and so on. When No7 entered service, it was as a blend of old and new

WSW · 5 Feb 2012

MK Tom said:
If you think about it though, every line has to eventually re-lay their track at some point, especially if they're as busy as the NYMR or the WSR or that kind of line. So platforms and stuff are original but everything has to get rebuilt or replaced at some point.

Stogumber Relay

Quite a mileage of the WSR has been renewed over the years.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

1708 · 5 Feb 2012

Tiny Tim said:
.......The Swanage Railway now runs to Swanage....

Think you might have confused your facts here....

judethegreat · 5 Feb 2012

I would really love it if lines which actually link places and/or touch a main line could/would be used all year round to provide a valid transport function, whatever stock/traction would be used I don't mind. There was a thing about running the parry people mover on the Mid-Hants - that could make it affordable without subsidy needed.

Mattmatt · 6 Feb 2012

The East Lancs Railway have an aspirational plan to get to Castleton, & have a platform link with the mainline station. As they already have the mainline link, it would extend the line by about an extra 2 miles. An excellent idea i think; as it would give the railway somewhere to go; as Heywood is a nothing station, (if you've been there you'd know what i mean) and doesnt really offer punters a destination, at least in Castleton you'd have some shops etc.

nferguso · 6 Feb 2012

Mattmatt said:
The East Lancs Railway have an aspirational plan to get to Castleton, & have a platform link with the mainline station. As they already have the mainline link, it would extend the line by about an extra 2 miles. An excellent idea i think; as it would give the railway somewhere to go; as Heywood is a nothing station, (if you've been there you'd know what i mean) and doesnt really offer punters a destination, at least in Castleton you'd have some shops etc.

The effect of the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway opening all the way through to the main line junction at Duffield has demonstrated to us very clearly just what an effect there is when a line goes from 'somewhere' to 'somewhere'.

Wirksworth has now become a rail-served destination for the first time in several decades and this has also started to have an effect on the town itself with people using the journey as part of the experience of discovering a new destination.

There is no denying that the 'network effect' makes a significant difference.

Neil

TGVDUDE · 6 Feb 2012

Also the Garw Valley Railway progressing ever slowly, but going in the right direction! I think I'll head down there in the Summer to lend a hand

http://www.garw-railway.co.uk

WSW · 6 Feb 2012

judethegreat said:
I would really love it if lines which actually link places and/or touch a main line could/would be used all year round to provide a valid transport function, whatever stock/traction would be used I don't mind.

Indeed. A grand idea that requires considerable investment/commitment - and - a lot of passenger use every day. May I ask how many times a year you would use the WSR if a daily all round service was operated from Taunton?

Passenger use on/off the Branch may happen one day on the WSR. Great efforts and much money has already been spent to make it happen. More expenditure is required (passing loops at Kentsford and Leigh need to be put back in).

Having said all that, the WSR does see very regular freight trains using the junction on most weekdays on most weeks...or doesn't freight count?

Come and have a look - and a ride - your wish is being accomplished. And no doubt elsewhere too.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

Tiny Tim · 6 Feb 2012

The existing parallel Taunton-Minehead bus service is well-used, although it's also rather quicker than the train. If the WSR ever manages to run into Taunton there would certainly be some potential for regular trains, at least at peak times. I'm aware of the problems of sharing tracks and a station with mainline services, I wonder what plans the WSR have?

Heritage railways: The end or a new start?

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