Virgin trains leaving Euston early?

cakehoover · 25 Feb 2012

XCDriver said:
There are almost certainly posters saying much the same as this on major stations where this policy is in effect

Yep, I think there are posters. I've never read them though, and I bet millions (literally) of other passengers haven't either.

It'd just be helpful to have this on booking confirmation webpages, emails, flagged up on train company websites, etc.

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krisk · 25 Feb 2012

Or god forbid passengers turn up for their train with sufficient time.

Print it on tickets, where is the common sense that says if my train is 1940 then at 1935 I will be on it?

Minilad · 25 Feb 2012

cakehoover said:
Yep, I think there are posters. I've never read them though, and I bet millions (literally) of other passengers haven't either.

It'd just be helpful to have this on booking confirmation webpages, emails, flagged up on train company websites, etc.

Don't want to sound funny but how far should they go. The posters are there. If you don't read them then thats not their problem.
It seems passengers these days want their hands held every step of the way.
I don't mean that as a personal attack on you. Just passengers in general

DarloRich · 25 Feb 2012

to me if you leave any time after xx : xx.30 but before xx : xx.29 you have left on time.

Welshman · 25 Feb 2012

XCDriver said:
Do you mind if I just sit over here and open this big can of worms. Thanks

If you'll pardon the mixed metaphor, it's a can of worms best left in the bottom of the boat.

bengolding · 25 Feb 2012

Well the early start did no favours. It arrived in Crewe 3 down (101 min non-stop run instead of the usual 90) although it is expected into Manchester on time.

VTs at Euston vanish from platform screens approx 2 mins before departure. Unless there is a barrier check (they close the gates if so), I've managed to catch services numerous times within 2 mins as I know the booked platform numbers which doesn't change unless there is disruption.

Lampshade · 25 Feb 2012

Was it a platform-side clock? They're sometimes wrong, some even display a different time on either side.

EDIT: 1H74 shown as having departed at 1939.

mralexn · 25 Feb 2012

cakehoover said:
That sounds completely reasonable

But I do wonder if train companies could communicate the 40-second rule better to passengers.

I travel once or twice a week on the Virgin west coast main line, and consider myself a reasonably well-informed person, and yet until this thread I literally had no idea that the 40-second rule existed.

Perhaps you could be told about it when you booked an Advance ticket online? And it could be communicated in a friendly way, something like this:

"We want our trains to leave promptly and safely, to help our passengers. If everything's running smoothly, your train should leave the station at exactly 19:40:00 - so please make sure you're on the train by 19:39:20 at the latest, so that your conductor can prepare the train for a safe departure."

Well, just a thought

you are right, but for me, being on your train 40 seconds before your due off, is rather reasonable :P

cakehoover · 26 Feb 2012

Thanks to all those who gave constructive feedback.

I think if you surveyed average passengers, most would be very surprised to know that:

1) You may not be allowed on a train if you're not on it 40 seconds before the departure time printed on your ticket
2) The 19.40 at Euston is allowed to depart at 19.39!

As long as this isn't communicated properly to passengers - yet they are sold Advance tickets - I think the industry is going to have a problem. And it will be the ordinary conductors and station staff who suffer the consequences.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Please note I'm not objecting to the policy per se, just to the way it is (not) communicated to passengers. And it would be so easy to fix!

Darandio · 26 Feb 2012

As pointed out by others, it's really a pointless thread.

cakehoover said:
Please note I'm not objecting to the policy per se, just to the way it is (not) communicated to passengers. And it would be so easy to fix!

What is to fix though? Is it so unreasonable to expect passengers to be on a service even one minute before departure? Of course it isn't.

Geezertronic · 26 Feb 2012

At Euston, the boards always appear to show the 2 minute rule on the VT trains and whatever the equivalent is for LM.

I don't see it as a problem tbh and I've missed trains before because I have been legging it from the LU escalators down to the platforms with a minute to spare and chancing it. Some times the TM has let me in via the door he/she is using, other times I have missed it. In my instance, the blame lies squarely with the Northern Line

ex-railwayman · 26 Feb 2012

Depends on what the loco driver's watch said, not everyone's watch is the absolute right time to the nanosecond, it's possible that the driver's timepiece was 20 seconds later than the platform clock and therefore he left RIGHT TIME, of course, he could also have been on a promise......

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

34D · 26 Feb 2012

Don't see why the train can't be given a public timetable time of 19:38 and WTT of 19:40.

Many people wanting to watch the 9 o'clock news switch on at 21:00.00 and not 20:59.20.

If a train is advertised as 19:40 then I personally would expect to board at 19:40.00.

We need someone with an advance to be close to the wire - if virgin do not honour the contract (and allow them to travel on the next train) then it would be interesting to see what occurs.

transmanche · 26 Feb 2012

34D said:
Don't see why the train can't be given a public timetable time of 19:38 and WTT of 19:40 [...] If a train is advertised as 19:40 then I personally would expect to board at 19:40.00.

Hear, hear!

ukrob · 26 Feb 2012

ex-railwayman said:
Depends on what the loco driver's watch said, not everyone's watch is the absolute right time to the nanosecond, it's possible that the driver's timepiece was 20 seconds later than the platform clock and therefore he left RIGHT TIME, of course, he could also have been on a promise......

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

Although there is no loco, and that the driver doesn't decide when to close the doors and depart, I can't argue with the rest of your post

Mr Spock · 26 Feb 2012

34D said:
Don't see why the train can't be given a public timetable time of 19:38 and WTT of 19:40.

Many people wanting to watch the 9 o'clock news switch on at 21:00.00 and not 20:59.20.

If a train is advertised as 19:40 then I personally would expect to board at 19:40.00.
QUOTE]

The train is advertised to depart at 19.40 and it can't do that if passengers are still getting on board so they start the door closing procedure earlier to ensure a prompt departure.

pmgarvey · 26 Feb 2012

XCDriver said:
Don't want to sound funny but how far should they go. The posters are there. If you don't read them then thats not their problem.
It seems passengers these days want their hands held every step of the way.
I don't mean that as a personal attack on you. Just passengers in general

In all fairness it's not when you're already at the station that you should tell people to arrive earlier because the doors are going to close before.

That said unless you practically live at the station I can't imagine anyone who times their journey to the station accurate to within 40 seconds.

Miken · 26 Feb 2012

cakehoover said:
Thanks to all those who gave constructive feedback.

I think if you surveyed average passengers, most would be very surprised to know that:

1) You may not be allowed on a train if you're not on it 40 seconds before the departure time printed on your ticket
2) The 19.40 at Euston is allowed to depart at 19.39!

As long as this isn't communicated properly to passengers - yet they are sold Advance tickets - I think the industry is going to have a problem. And it will be the ordinary conductors and station staff who suffer the consequences.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Please note I'm not objecting to the policy per se, just to the way it is (not) communicated to passengers. And it would be so easy to fix!

I have to disagree... at Euston the 2 minute rule is clearly signed on the electronic data boards where all of the other train information is to be found. There is also a PA announcement 5 minutes before departure reminding folk that the train is ready to leave. If the train is ready, doors closed and route set, why shouldn't it be dispatched early? I think the solution is quite simple... get there in plenty of time, advance ticket or no and you'll get on. I think there's plenty of other things wrong with our railways without picking things like this. Finally, travelling out of Euston on Virgin to Wigan several times a week for the past 6 years, I have only ever experienced one 'early' departure - trains usually dispatch to the second or late! If you were flying to Manchester from Heathrow you'd have to be at security at least 45 minutes before departure so I think we long distance rail commuters get a good deal.

craigwilson · 26 Feb 2012

34D said:
If a train is advertised as 19:40 then I personally would expect to board at 19:40.00.

Really?!? :roll: These times are advertised as departure times i.e. the train leaves at 19:40. If my train's the 19:40, I expect it to be moving on the dot of 19:40:00!!

yorkie · 26 Feb 2012

34D said:
Don't see why the train can't be given a public timetable time of 19:38 and WTT of 19:40.

Absolutely, but the reasons are obvious! Virgin want to pretend their trains are quicker than they actually are! So when comparing journey times with other operators, they will seem more favourable.

There are many operators who sensibly have advertised times that are earlier than the WTT times (this is common on East Coast at Stevenage for example), there's no reason Virgin can't do the same, but the reasons they don't are simply to keep the advertised journey times down. Despite departing early, they frequently arrive late though!

calc7 · 26 Feb 2012

yorkie said:
Absolutely, but the reasons are obvious! Virgin want to pretend their trains are quicker than they actually are! So when comparing journey times with other operators, they will seem more favourable.

There are many operators who sensibly have advertised times that are earlier than the WTT times (this is common on East Coast at Stevenage for example), there's no reason Virgin can't do the same, but the reasons they don't are simply to keep the advertised journey times down. Despite departing early, they frequently arrive late though!

Half an hour on down trains to MKC springs to mind. I reckon no more than 20% actually manage this! (Though I do agree with it - most trains are only a minute or two late from my experience and it allows trains to depart asap).

MidnightFlyer · 26 Feb 2012

calc7 said:
Half an hour on down trains to MKC springs to mind. I reckon no more than 20% actually manage this! (Though I do agree with it - most trains are only a minute or two late from my experience and it allows trains to depart asap).

MKC is achievable in 28 mins on a non-stop run. Having said that though, when my train did that last night, I remembered just how rare that seems to be. I always seem to time it for some reason, usually it's 30-32 mins, give or take.

calc7 · 26 Feb 2012

MattE2010 said:
MKC is achievable in 28 mins on a non-stop run. Having said that though, when my train did that last night, I remembered just how rare that seems to be. I always seem to time it for some reason, usually it's 30-32 mins, give or take.

Achievable - yes, often - no.
I've been commuting to MKC from EUS 3 or 4 days a week for the last couple of months and can honestly count on one hand how many times I've arrived in less than 30.00 minutes on the down journey. The up journey is often around the timetabled 35ish.

But as I say, the 1- or 2-minute delay is absolutely fine for me, and I'd rather it be that way than trains waiting around at this busy station for their booked slots.

driver_m · 26 Feb 2012

To do MK in 28 minutes there has to be no restrictions on the line. Unfortunately there is a 30mph tsr at the top of Camden near the carriage sidings. This alone costs a few minutes in running time inspite of line speed only being 50 at that point. As for leaving early it doesn't happen that often, its probably to concentrate the minds of the stragglers who think they can walk up with 10 secs to go.

455driver · 26 Feb 2012

34D said:
Don't see why the train can't be given a public timetable time of 19:38 and WTT of 19:40.

Because then passengers would complain the train was (2 minutes) late leaving all the time.

34D said:
Many people wanting to watch the 9 o'clock news switch on at 21:00.00 and not 20:59.20.

But you dont walk in the front door at 21:00.00, put the shopping away, make a cup of tea and THEN expect to see (all) the news.

34D said:
If a train is advertised as 19:40 then I personally would expect to board at 19:40.00.

It is the train DEPARTURE time, not last boarding time.

34D said:
We need someone with an advance to be close to the wire - if virgin do not honour the contract (and allow them to travel on the next train) then it would be interesting to see what occurs.

It is the passengers responsibility to be on the train in time to allow an on time departure, if the TOC has a 2 minute policy then the passenger MUST be on the train 2 minutes before departure., it is the TOCs responsibility to run the train on time, if they dont the passengers can make a claim.

You cant have it both ways either you want the trains to run on time or you want us to wait around (delaying all the passengers that CAN get on the train in time) for all the late runners (who will just get later and later until we go through this type of thread again) but with the trains being late as well.

Peter Mugridge · 26 Feb 2012

34D said:
Many people wanting to watch the 9 o'clock news switch on at 21:00.00 and not 20:59.20.

However, if you want to watch the second portion of Coronation Street ( for example ) you would be well advised to switch on at 20:28.45 as it has a nasty habit of starting a minute or more early!

exile · 26 Feb 2012

If I'm running for a train it's almost always because the connecting train I've got off is late. If the train I'm trying to catch departs early and I miss it I think I'm entitled be a little displeased - particularly if I'm part of a posse of 50 people all trying to make the connection......

455driver · 26 Feb 2012

Peter Mugridge said:
However, if you want to watch the second portion of Coronation Street ( for example ) you would be well advised to switch on at 20:28.45 as it has a nasty habit of starting a minute or more early!

As does the one show.

Nasty email about to be written to BBC complaining about this-

Dear Aunty Beeb, why is it that when I walk in the door at 19:00 (on time), take off my shoes, put my slippers on (I am old), make a cup of tea and then put the telly on I always miss 5 minutes of the one show, can you not advertise it as starting at 19:00 but actually start it at 19:05 so I dont miss any of it. Better still can it start at 19:08 just in case I am late. But please note I want it to finish on time at 19:30 so I dont miss the start of Coronation st on ITV. Also when I record "the one show" (sky+, loads of money me

) I want it to start on time at 19:00 so I dont have to wait for 5 minutes, I will send a list of my recording/ viewing preferences each week (subject to short notice alterations :lol:

).

Many thanks A licence payer.

That should do it. :lol:

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

exile said:
If I'm running for a train it's almost always because the connecting train I've got off is late. If the train I'm trying to catch departs early and I miss it I think I'm entitled be a little displeased - particularly if I'm part of a posse of 50 people all trying to make the connection......

If I was the driver of the connecting train (and you were indeed making a suitable effort

) then the train will wait for you, I do this regularly at Weybridge when the train from Addlestone is running late but is arriving/ in view. Sadly we cant wait "just in case" but I do try and honor the connection (even though SWT dont have official connections).

Basic customer service doesnt cost much but there has to be a line drawn.

Some-one making an effort I will wait for (within reason), some-one walking along and not making an effort/ trying to get my attention will be left behind, until you are on my train you aint "my" customer therefore I will show good customer service to "my" customers (who are on the train) and leave on time.

gswindale · 26 Feb 2012

Don't see why the train can't be given a public timetable time of 19:38 and WTT of 19:40.

Many people wanting to watch the 9 o'clock news switch on at 21:00.00 and not 20:59.20.

If a train is advertised as 19:40 then I personally would expect to board at 19:40.00.

We need someone with an advance to be close to the wire - if virgin do not honour the contract (and allow them to travel on the next train) then it would be interesting to see what occurs.

Pretty much us in Dec.

We were booked on the 12.40(ish) departure from Euston to New St. Due to an incident at Queenstown Rd, we arrived at the top of the escalators from the underground with only 2 minutes to go. Cue immediate visit to customer services where we were transferred to the next departure once the reason for us missing our booked departure was confirmed as being outside or control.

I was however aware that the platforms were closed prior to the departure time to allow an on-time departure.

Sent by Androids

Crossover · 26 Feb 2012

34D said:
Don't see why the train can't be given a public timetable time of 19:38 and WTT of 19:40.

Then you would get the public moaning their 19:38 depature had departed a minute or two late...there's no real winning!

The Euston departures do tend to depart -1 from experience. At a local station, I recently watched a Northern service depart 90 seconds before booked time - caused a stir did that one! (and meant the aut announcer announced it as the approaching train just as it left the platform!!!)

Virgin trains leaving Euston early?

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