MSE split ticketing app

Seems a good start and better than going manually on brfares.com and playing the game yourself.

Someone mentioned "other" split-ticketing engines - are there any?

mbga8mjb said:

Seems a good start and better than going manually on brfares.com and playing the game yourself.

Someone mentioned "other" split-ticketing engines - are there any?

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As far as I am aware there are no other publicly available and legal split-ticketing engines.

Hi All,

These are great comments. As part of the development team who built Tickety Split @ MoneySavingExpert, we're on the look-out for improvement ideas.

Please feel free to PM me any thoughts, or post any more comments on this thread.

As I'm sure you can appreciate, Split Ticketing is a bit of a technical challenge. Whilst returns, multiple splits and advance tickets are all in our thoughts, these inherently make things a whole lot more complex for us.

Thanks,
MSE Adam

MSEAdam said:

Hi All,

These are great comments. As part of the development team who built Tickety Split @ MoneySavingExpert, we're on the look-out for improvement ideas.

Please feel free to PM me any thoughts, or post any more comments on this thread.

As I'm sure you can appreciate, Split Ticketing is a bit of a technical challenge. Whilst returns, multiple splits and advance tickets are all in our thoughts, these inherently make things a whole lot more complex for us.

Thanks,
MSE Adam

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Good to hear from you Adam. If you're looking for constructive criticism, you've definitely chosen the right forum! Indeed, it must be an intense process to unleash on a server simply because of the huge range of different tickets available. I suspect though that with some work it could become a very useful tool for passengers.

Max said:

Good to hear from you Adam. If you're looking for constructive criticism, you've definitely chosen the right forum! Indeed, it must be an intense process to unleash on a server simply because of the huge range of different tickets available. I suspect though that with some work it could become a very useful tool for passengers.

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Thanks Max.

This is our first iteration of the tool. We're hoping that the logic engine we've built can be extended to returns, advanced, etc.

Standard walk-on fares was a logical first step for us, as these are always available to buy. Advanced is a different kettle of fish, and we need a way to determine which advance fairs are available to purchase.

Return tickets bought on the day of travel are not as complicated, but we need to ensure that singles aren't cheaper (which apps extra processing to our tool).

Adam

AlterEgo said:

Gaztynan said:

About time these fares wern't "hidden" although i fear it will push prices up!

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They aren't hidden, they're all in the public domain.

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Whether or not the price database is in the public doman (I don't think it's ever been tested in court), the fact remains that it can only be accessed with the agreement of ATOC, or through a web site with terms and conditions restricting use.

That's why MSE negotiated a license before they launched their site.

Sadly, I couldn't find out what it gave for Sankey-Birkenhead, as it refused to search for almost any of the Merseyrail stations on the Wirral, giving a journey to Liverpool Lime Street instead. It did suggest something reasonable for SNK-UPT, though. I wouldn't actually follow their suggestion as stopping short on another ticket is cheaper, but they do give a lower price for the journey than NRE.

I do wonder when a ticketing engine will show up that identifies the cheapest ticket(s) to buy to travel from Sevenoaks to Dover Priory

island said:

I do wonder when a ticketing engine will show up that identifies the cheapest ticket(s) to buy to travel from Sevenoaks to Dover Priory

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Hmmm. I know an engine that will find a Cheap Day Return for £11.60 valid for that route. Is that what you had in mind?

island said:

I do wonder when a ticketing engine will show up that identifies the cheapest ticket(s) to buy to travel from Sevenoaks to Dover Priory

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I would strongly advise against a split ticketing app suggesting tickets that include starting or finishing 'short', for various reasons.

For example passengers may not be able to claim the tickets back on expenses.

Passengers may find that the route taken, while permitted, is not deemed 'reasonable' by some staff, and not every passenger wants to carry the relevant documentation and be prepared for a discussion with revenue staff! Most want a peaceful journey.

Passengers may find that ticket offices refuse to sell the tickets. Yes, that would be a breach of the rules on impartial retailing, but again not everyone wants to pursue that. To use an extreme example, a few years ago Newcastle-Carlisle was valid via Manchester, imagine asking a booking clerk at Manchester Piccadilly for a Newcastle to Carlisle ticket, starting "short" for immediate travel? Yes, the passenger would be within the rights, but they'd probably incur a delay and a lot of additional correspondence.

Such routes may be withdrawn. For example Newcastle-Carlisle was changed after someone used the ticket on the Settle Carlisle line for a journey to Appleby, and was charged for a new ticket, and when he asked for a refund, he was given the refund but the anomaly was removed a few months later.

So, no, I'd not suggest the MSE app, or any other publicly-accessible app suggests tickets starting and/or finishing short, and would strongly advise against it!

SickyNicky said:

Hmmm. I know an engine that will find a Cheap Day Return for £11.60 valid for that route. Is that what you had in mind?

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Mine's £9.60. But per yorkie, I'll not encourage its use.

island said:

Mine's £9.60. But per yorkie, I'll not encourage its use.

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Speaking generally about such anomalous fares: What good are they if we are not allowed to talk about them and use them? Surely it is better to speak openly about them (at the risk of what are essentially bugs in the fares and routing system being tidied up) than to keep them hidden away, never to be used?

Or is the argument that they should be kept secret from the general public so that those select few who are "in the know" can continue to take advantage? This doesn't seem fair.

benk1342 said:

Speaking generally about such anomalous fares: What good are they if we are not allowed to talk about them and use them? Surely it is better to speak openly about them (at the risk of what are essentially bugs in the fares and routing system being tidied up) than to keep them hidden away, never to be used?

Or is the argument that they should be kept secret from the general public so that those select few who are "in the know" can continue to take advantage? This doesn't seem fair.

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This forum comes up highly in many search engines about rail ticketing matters. The ticket I have in mind is so obviously not intended for use for the journey I mentioned that it would be likely to put a member of the public who was unable to explain himself very well in quite a spot of bother if challenged. This forum isn't about that.

benk1342 said:

Speaking generally about such anomalous fares: What good are they if we are not allowed to talk about them and use them? Surely it is better to speak openly about them (at the risk of what are essentially bugs in the fares and routing system being tidied up) than to keep them hidden away, never to be used?

Or is the argument that they should be kept secret from the general public so that those select few who are "in the know" can continue to take advantage? This doesn't seem fair.

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When Newcastle-Carlisle was valid via Leeds, if someone asked for the cheapest ticket from Leeds-Carlisle, would it have been wise for us to suggest a Newcastle-Carlisle ticket, in the knowledge that the person who came asking for advice would end up with difficulty getting through the barriers at Leeds, being asked to pay an additional fare on the Northern train (if they even got to board it!), and then have to face writing to Customer Services for their money back and eventually getting their money back with a note to say it will be 'fixed'? Would the passenger be happy with us for that?

(then multiply that by all the people who would read the topic and use the same ticket for either the same journey, or a similar journey en-route e.g. York to Appleby or Durham to Leeds etc)

benk1342 said:

Speaking generally about such anomalous fares: What good are they if we are not allowed to talk about them and use them? Surely it is better to speak openly about them (at the risk of what are essentially bugs in the fares and routing system being tidied up) than to keep them hidden away, never to be used?

Or is the argument that they should be kept secret from the general public so that those select few who are "in the know" can continue to take advantage? This doesn't seem fair.

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Given the high profile of the forum, would you prefer the alternative of the spies from the TOCs seeing these anomalies and changing routeing permissions, easements and/or restrictions so that the advice is worthless before the passenger has even had a chance to use it?

No one is against suggesting tickets taking advantage of loopholes to anyone, however there are more effective ways of recommending these tickets without bringing the TOCs' attention to them, in addition to the fact that there are responsible ways and irresponsible ways of recommending certain tickets to people seeking advice, whose individual circumstances differ greatly.

I assume the best way for such an app to stay free would be for it to link through to a ticket purchasing website, as well as displaying ads.

Adam, my only suggestion would be to release Android and Blackberry Apps, not everyone is (un)lucky enough to have an iPhone.

island said:

...it would be likely to put a member of the public who was unable to explain himself very well in quite a spot of bother if challenged. This forum isn't about that.

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yorkie said:

...in the knowledge that the person who came asking for advice would end up with difficulty getting through the barriers at Leeds, being asked to pay an additional fare on the Northern train (if they even got to board it!), and then have to face writing to Customer Services for their money back and eventually getting their money back with a note to say it will be 'fixed'?

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bb21 said:

...so that the advice is worthless before the passenger has even had a chance to use it?

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Ah, slight miscommunication, my fault. Of course I agree that when giving practical advice it is best to stick to relatively conventional routes and fares.

But when the threads turn (as they often do) to more theoretical or academic discussions of fares, routes and anomalies, such as this thread's mention of Sevenoaks - Dover Priory, I think it would be nice, within that same academic/theoretical spirit, to be able to be open about how those fares were constructed. I appreciate that this presents a risk that the fare/route will be modified or restricted by the railway in the future, and I respect that many (most?) members of this forum feel that is not a risk worth taking. I also understand that many (most? all?) members are happy to share this information in a private message if one asks, and that there is some fun to be had trying to recreate the hinted-at fare on one's own.

I'm just saying it is a shame that we can't all talk openly about something that we are all interested in. It's not blaming anyone; I just think it's a shame.

Prodigy said:

Adam, my only suggestion would be to release Android and Blackberry Apps, not everyone is (un)lucky enough to have an iPhone.

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Don't forget Windows Phone, arguably needed more than BlackBerry!

For now, simply bookmark http://splitticket.moneysavingexpert.com/ which should get the tool to work on all Smartphones.

Adam