DfT Consultation on TL/GN/SN Combined Franchise

OxtedL · 2 Jun 2012

Brighton is in Sussex, not Kent.

Trains from Kent to which they refer through Elephant & Castle will probably be coming from Lewisham or the Catford loop.

If they do end up coming from Herne Hill then Sutton Loop users would indeed have a right to feel a bit perturbed.

I'm hoping that this is what is meant.

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swt_passenger · 2 Jun 2012

It's all a bit woolly. I can see where Tommy3000 gets his 4 tph from, but further on in the document it is explained a bit differently.

AIUI the original plan for the 18 tph in total through London Bridge (Thameslink) was 14 tph from the 'Southern' through New Cross Gate and 4 tph from the 'Southeastern' via New Cross. (In the London and SE RUS these were proposed as 2 tph each from Ashford and Tunbridge Wells - but apparently their commuting population prefers to go to Cannon St!)

This then left 6 tph up through Elephant onto the core, all from other 'SE' origins. (Maidstone/Sevenoaks/Bellingham as proposed.) It looks like these 6 tph (or something similar) will happen anyway.

They are now suggesting that those 4 tph from the SE long distance origins won't run through London Bridge; yet they also explain quite categorically that there'll either be 6 or 8 running through E&C onto the core, and therefore 16 or 18 tph through London Bridge. Does that really mean a two train discrepancy? Or would they change the balance of SN to SE origins and have an increase to 16 tph up through New Cross Gate off the SN?

BTW this latest proposal suggests they could be building in unnecessary infrastructure, because there's supposed to be a grade separated connection between the Southeastern and the dedicated Thameslink pair at the new Bermondsey junctions - if no trains are going that way would they build it anyway just for diversions?

mister-sparky · 2 Jun 2012

swt_passenger said:
BTW this latest proposal suggests they could be building in unnecessary infrastructure, because there's supposed to be a grade separated connection between the Southeastern and the dedicated Thameslink pair at the new Bermondsey junctions - if no trains are going that way would they build it anyway just for diversions?

the grade separation is necessary to separate the thameslink coming up the bml to blackfriars, and the se coming up from new cross going to charing cross. at the moment the thameslinks have to cross in front of the charing cross trains just after london bridge, meaning less paths for cx services. the separation with bring the bml tracks inbetween the cannon st and charing cross ones in the bermondsey area. so no conflicting movements. hope that makes sense the way i've described it!

Class377/5 · 3 Jun 2012

Tommy3000 said:
Oh dear. The 2011 RUS said the capacity through Herne Hill's junctions used by Brighton trains would be turned over to local services once all Thameslink 'mainline' trains were running via London Bridge, but if they're actually going to keep running long distance (and presumably 12 car) trains via HH then the only substantial benefit of the Thameslink Programme for passengers between HH and Blackfriars (creating space for more urban commuter trains) will be wiped out. Also, if the trains do come via HH, they'll have to cross the junctions to Denmark Hill and London Bridge on their way to the core, which will likely irritate Sutton Loop passengers who have already been told such movements wouldn't be operationally viable.

As someone who uses Loughborough Junction, this is quite frustrating. Years of disruption and the result will likely be the same number of overcrowded trains but with a forced change at Blackfriars. I know they're planning to double the number of Sutton Loop trains and run half of them to London Bridge from 2018, but I don't see how this would relieve crowding on trains between HH and Blackfriars as anyone going to London Bridge can already change at Tulse Hill.

Also would be interesting where these trains are coming from as if they are 12 cars what would the calling pattern be? seems like they'd hardly stop in London if routed this way until they hit Blackfriars. Unless they want to start work on a new Herne Hill sooner than we thought.

I had heard a newer plan was 8tph Blackfriars - Sutton is 4tph via Mitcham & 4tph via Wimbledon. However it may be a case of the biggest improvement is just new trains. Maybe.

swt_passenger said:
It's all a bit woolly. I can see where Tommy3000 gets his 4 tph from, but further on in the document it is explained a bit differently.

AIUI the original plan for the 18 tph in total through London Bridge (Thameslink) was 14 tph from the 'Southern' through New Cross Gate and 4 tph from the 'Southeastern' via New Cross. (In the London and SE RUS these were proposed as 2 tph each from Ashford and Tunbridge Wells - but apparently their commuting population prefers to go to Cannon St!)

This then left 6 tph up through Elephant onto the core, all from other 'SE' origins. (Maidstone/Sevenoaks/Bellingham as proposed.) It looks like these 6 tph (or something similar) will happen anyway.

They are now suggesting that those 4 tph from the SE long distance origins won't run through London Bridge; yet they also explain quite categorically that there'll either be 6 or 8 running through E&C onto the core, and therefore 16 or 18 tph through London Bridge. Does that really mean a two train discrepancy? Or would they change the balance of SN to SE origins and have an increase to 16 tph up through New Cross Gate off the SN?

BTW this latest proposal suggests they could be building in unnecessary infrastructure, because there's supposed to be a grade separated connection between the Southeastern and the dedicated Thameslink pair at the new Bermondsey junctions - if no trains are going that way would they build it anyway just for diversions?

Quite, seems like the merger of Thameslink with Southern is making more sense if they are now running more services over 'Southern's rails' than SE's.

mister-sparky said:
the grade separation is necessary to separate the thameslink coming up the bml to blackfriars, and the se coming up from new cross going to charing cross. at the moment the thameslinks have to cross in front of the charing cross trains just after london bridge, meaning less paths for cx services. the separation with bring the bml tracks inbetween the cannon st and charing cross ones in the bermondsey area. so no conflicting movements. hope that makes sense the way i've described it!

Nope there's a linked in part that also grade separated being rebuilt (part was done as the ELLX Phase 2) that links the Kent mainline into Thameslink as well.

swt_passenger · 3 Jun 2012

mister-sparky said:
the grade separation is necessary to separate the thameslink coming up the bml to blackfriars, and the se coming up from new cross going to charing cross. at the moment the thameslinks have to cross in front of the charing cross trains just after london bridge, meaning less paths for cx services. the separation with bring the bml tracks inbetween the cannon st and charing cross ones in the bermondsey area. so no conflicting movements. hope that makes sense the way i've described it!

I know about that requirement, to get Thameslink into the middle between the Charing Cross and Cannon St lines - what I'm on about is additional connections from the up 3 line at New Cross which also goes under the new Thameslink route, and a corresponding down direction route from the down Thameslink line.

A sketch appeared in a Modern Railways article back in 2007 which shows the connections I'm referring to, I've attached an extract below. Obviously it may be way out of date based on the time that's passed since, however the connections would have been necessary to get from the SE fast and slow lines through New Cross onto Thameslink, (and vice versa)albeit with a flat crossing of the down fast line.

PS - I see that NR have just (25th May) awarded the contract for the Bermondsey area track remodelling, so hopefully they do know what they intend to build now. Hopefully we'll see some info in one of the rail mags before too long...
.

Stats · 29 Aug 2012

DfT have extended the consultation on the TSGN franchise to 5pm on 14 September due to a high level of interest.

HH · 29 Aug 2012

Stats said:
DfT have extended the consultation on the TSGN franchise to 5pm on 14 September due to a high level of interest.

Do I spot a delay to the ITT?

Class377/5 · 4 Sep 2012

HH said:
Do I spot a delay to the ITT?

Well there is rumour of such happening. Was some noise prior to the consultation being extended.

Bermondsey Fly Over looks a bit like this.

Bermondsey Fly Over by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

MK Tom · 4 Sep 2012

Anybody notice the map at the start of the document misses out the entire WCML/MKC bit of Southern? It goes on to mention it in the text though.

Class377/5 · 4 Sep 2012

MK Tom said:
Anybody notice the map at the start of the document misses out the entire WCML/MKC bit of Southern? It goes on to mention it in the text though.

Think thats more about keeping it simple any anything else.

DfT Consultation on TL/GN/SN Combined Franchise

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