• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Stansted Airport to Seven Sisters

Status
Not open for further replies.

tannedfrog

Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
537
Today I bought an Anytime return for this journey. The Stansted Express is stopping at Seven Sisters today and not Tottenham Hale.

The ticket office tried to sell me a slightly more expensive ticket to Tottenham Hale instead, because:

1) it is valid to Seven Sisters
2) I can use the return from Tottenham Hale which I cannnot with a Seven Sisters ticket.

I disagree with point 1 because it seems over-distance ; and also with point 2 - the journey planner I used shows the Seven Sisters ticket as being valid on the tube to Tottenham Hale and on to Stansted.

Am I in the right?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,956
You may find some relevance in this previous thread.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36666

The Tottenham Hale ticket is 10p more expensive, FWIW.

The shortest route for each respective ticket is:

Stansted - Tottenham Hale 31 miles - direct
Stansted - Seven Sisters 32 miles - direct

Routeing via Hackney Downs adds 5.5 miles to either distance, so this is not an option.

This journey is mapped here:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=101

Tottenham Hale here represents both Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters (it is a square). This is a bit of 'hack', since the two stations are not especially close to each other.

Since the two stations are the same routeing point, it follows that the two routes, namely via Edmonton Green and via Enfield Lock are both mapped, and therefore that Stansted Airport - Tottenham Hale and Stansted Airport - Seven Sisters tickets are interchangeable and should have the same validity.

With regards to the tube, NRES implies that Seven Sisters - Tottenham Vale on the Victoria Line is an interavailable route with a rail ticket. I am not sure how true this is.

You should be able to purchase a cheaper ticket than this.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
Since the two stations are the same routeing point, it follows that the two routes, namely via Edmonton Green and via Enfield Lock are both mapped, and therefore that Stansted Airport - Tottenham Hale and Stansted Airport - Seven Sisters tickets are interchangeable and should have the same validity.

Yes, I have come to the same conclusion.

With regards to the tube, NRES implies that Seven Sisters - Tottenham Vale on the Victoria Line is an interavailable route with a rail ticket. I am not sure how true this is.

The way interavailability is worded in The Manual on this route is:

FRPP said:
Subject to tickets being valid between the appropriate stations or for the zones shown, National Rail singles and returns only (not Season Tickets) are valid on LU /DLR services as shown below:

National Rail tickets which include validity
Between Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale/ Walthamstow Central and Zone U1 or beyond

are also valid on LU / DLR services
Via the Victoria Line from Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale/ Walthamstow Central to any station in Zones 1 to 3

There are two interpretations I can think of, however it would appear that journey planners take the interpretation that interavailability applies even if the journey is entirely between Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale and Walthanstow Central.
 

tannedfrog

Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
537
Many thanks for the replies.

If there is a cheaper ticket for this route I'd be grateful to know about it. I do need to be able to travel back from Tottenham Hale on a weekday evening rush hour, which I think means the Off Peak Returns from stations close to Stansted are no good. Unless I could excess the return portion to an Anytime?
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,382
Location
0035
Only tickets which cover at least Zone U1 to, from or via Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale or Walthamstow are valid on the Victoria line.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
Only tickets which cover at least Zone U1 to, from or via Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale or Walthamstow are valid on the Victoria line.

That is the official interpretation I would think, however journey planners seem to adopt a different one.
 

greatkingrat

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2011
Messages
2,751
The pricing is a bit strange, for the SOR Tottenham Hale is 10p more expensive, but for the CDR Seven Sisters is 10p more expensive!
 

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,956
That is the official interpretation I would think, however journey planners seem to adopt a different one.

I had a look into the code and I found these:

ADDITIONAL LINK: TUBE BETWEEN BHO AND FPK IN 21 MINUTES
ADDITIONAL LINK: TUBE BETWEEN BHO AND HHY IN 23 MINUTES

ADDITIONAL LINK: TUBE BETWEEN FPK AND HHY IN 13 MINUTES
ADDITIONAL LINK: TUBE BETWEEN FPK AND SVS IN 15 MINUTES
ADDITIONAL LINK: TUBE BETWEEN FPK AND TOM IN 17 MINUTES
ADDITIONAL LINK: TUBE BETWEEN FPK AND WHC IN 21 MINUTES

ADDITIONAL LINK: TUBE BETWEEN GFD AND SRU IN 15 MINUTES

ADDITIONAL LINK: TUBE BETWEEN HHY AND SVS IN 18 MINUTES
ADDITIONAL LINK: TUBE BETWEEN HHY AND TOM IN 19 MINUTES
ADDITIONAL LINK: TUBE BETWEEN HHY AND WHC IN 24 MINUTES

ADDITIONAL LINK: TUBE BETWEEN SVS AND WHC IN 16 MINUTES

It might let you use some/all of these, regardless of what the manual says, since they are not cross-London (via z1) transfers, and I suspect it only checks for the Maltese cross when the tube journey is cross-London.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
What is this "ADDITIONAL LINK"? Is it a "patch" to resolve the issue that the stations in that routeing point group have no rail links between them wholly within the area, hence a free-for-all if you have a ticket to a station inside the group?
 

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,956
An additional link is any connection between stations that is not a rail link. Either a 'walk', 'tube', 'metro', or 'transfer'.

The way the reservation systems find routes is to do timetable lookups and glue them together as needed with 'additional links'. If a route using an additional link is faster than the through rail journey, it will offer that.

For example

ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN MDB AND MDE IN 10 MINUTES

Hence:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/MDE/EFL/tomorrow/1430/dep

Note that the Minimum Connection Time at MDB is 2 minutes, and therefore the time allowed is 10 + 2 = 12 minutes

Having found the fastest route, it will only then price up tickets.

In the case of MDE - EFL, the ticket is routed Any Permitted, so the shortest route and tickets up to a certain margin longer (~3 miles) is valid. The shortest route is calculated using an internal database, and is via Otford and Sevenoaks and around

The shortest route for MDE-EFL is never shown by NRE, because it is always slower, but it does form the basis (along with easements and mapped routes) for calculating whether the through fare is valid for NRE's calculated fastest route, which happens to include a walk and is far shorter than the shortest route, so is therefore valid.

Some stations, such as Coatbridge Sunnyside-Central do not have fixed links in the database, and therefore, even though they are close to each other, enquiry systems will never suggest walking between them.

The concept of a permitted walk is not one that officially exists, but it does operate in practice for this reason. Actual validity is therefore something of a grey area.

The additional links are not a patch for free-for-all travel, but rather a necessary means of connecting various bits of rail infrastructure without sending people all round the houses.

There are some patches in central London, which is that the various London terminals have mileage connecting them in the database, even though no track exists on the ground. This prevents a lot of 'shortest route' loopholes. Similar mileage patches could be added for Maidstone, Hertford, Dorking et al , to prevent shortest route loopholes around these areas, but at present they only exist in London, albeit even in London undocumented to the ticket buying public.
 

Be3G

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2012
Messages
1,595
Location
Chingford
Tottenham Hale used to have a one of those free-standing display/notice board things with a poster on it explaining precisely which National Rail tickets could be used on the Underground from that station. Unfortunately it's been a while since I last looked at it so I can't remember for certain what it said!
 

Daniel

Established Member
Joined
5 Oct 2005
Messages
2,529
Location
London
Tottenham Hale used to have a one of those free-standing display/notice board things with a poster on it explaining precisely which National Rail tickets could be used on the Underground from that station. Unfortunately it's been a while since I last looked at it so I can't remember for certain what it said!


That poster was a locally made one on the group, as opposed to corporate.

It explained that London Terminals tickets were not valid, and only tickets to Zone U*, Travelcards, or Cross London tickets with the maltese cross were valid for travel on the Victoria Line.

I believe it also mentioned that the gateline was not the exit, you simply needed to turn right.
You'd be surprised how many people stamp and scream when their ticket won't let them through, only to find they're looking for the exit.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,382
Location
0035
That poster was a locally made one on the group, as opposed to corporate.
If I was reading it correctly, and recall correctly, then that probably explains why it is incorrect :smile:
 

Daniel

Established Member
Joined
5 Oct 2005
Messages
2,529
Location
London
If I was reading it correctly, and recall correctly, then that probably explains why it is incorrect :smile:


It's one of those situations though, stuck between a rock and a hard place.

It's a poster which is needed, but as one isn't provided from comms those who end up making one perhaps aren't the most well trained.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top