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Thameslink programme

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Suggs

Suggs

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I remember seeing on the wikipedia article for the Thameslink Programme other than the 12-Car project and the central 'core' station rebuilds about the extensions, what I remember was the Great Northern being linked to Thameslink for a through route and a branch to Dartford and maybe Ashford, and in this month's modern railways the destinations Medway Towns and Maidstone were mentioned as well as Cambridge etc. with no other info Can anybody throw any light on any proposed extensions?
 
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Edvid

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The Wikipedia article is out of date.

When Network Rail published their South London Route Utilisation Strategy in late March they included diagrams of the southern Thameslink network after Key Output 1/2 works. You'll find them on pages 93 and 117 respectively, and the latter phase of works will mark the project's end upon completion.

In short, the KO2 Thameslink network is not as expansive as it was before and is more suburban in nature. Hardly anything is said about the northern Thameslink network but the King's (Cross - Lynn) services could become part of the Intercity Express Project.
 
Suggs

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Thanks very much, exactly what I was looking for. Haven't read it yet, but are these the current proposals?
 
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Edvid

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They are indeed the current proposals. And you're welcome.
 
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Edvid

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By the way Suggs, I've just visited your blog and I would like to partially explain how the Thameslink Programme will pan out. I won't delve into everything but there will be a lot to take in anyway.


March 2009

Closure of Moorgate branch and Blackfriars bay platforms

Peak ex-Moorgate/ex-Blackfriars services to be diverted to various (as yet not fully defined) locations on opposite sides of the Thames; all will use the full length of the Thameslink core (Kentish Town - Blackfriars)*

Off-peak ex-Blackfriars services (from Sevenoaks) to be diverted to Kentish Town or a location further north in daylight hours, then to Victoria during weeknights/weekends* - expected to continue until December 2011 I think

Peak hour frequencies in the Thameslink core will be 15tph to/from Thameslink North and 14tph to/from Thameslink South

FCC TL fleet to consist of 86 319s and 23 377s - virtual elimination of 4-car peak hour services

[* Most of these services will be run by one driver throughout but jointly operated by FCC and SER; Blackfriars is where the TOC will change]


December 2009

The recommended Thameslink South peak hour services are as follows:

All services via Elephant & Castle

4tph Wimbledon Loop (2tph anti-clockwise, 2tph clockwise; slow)
2tph Orpington (via Catford; slow)
2tph Sevenoaks (via Bat and Ball/Catford; slow)
2tph Brighton (via Crystal Palace/Herne Hill; fast between East Croydon and Blackfriars)
2tph Kent House (slow)
1tph Rochester (via Catford; fast between Bromley South and Blackfriars)
1tph Maidstone East (via Catford; fast between Bromley South and Blackfriars)


December 2011

FCC TL fleet expanded - 12-car services and more new trains introduced

The recommended Thameslink South peak hour services from December 2009 will continue, along with a new service:

2tph Three Bridges (via Redhill/Streatham/Herne Hill; fast between East Croydon and Blackfriars), bringing the total to 16tph

In addition, the Brighton and Three Bridges services will be lengthened to 12 cars whereas the rest will remain at 8

The majority of Thameslink North peak hour services will be lengthened to 12 cars and will therefore run ECS to/from Blackfriars; the total here is also 16tph


December 2015

Entire FCC TL fleet to consist entirely of brand new trains

The full network will be in place

Thameslink North peak hour services will operate at 24tph - possibly 18 12-car services and 6 8-car services

The recommended Thameslink South services are as follows:

12-car services via London Bridge

4tph Brighton (via Sydenham; fast to/from East Croydon)
2tph Horsham (via Redhill/Sydenham; fast to/from East Croydon)
2tph Three Bridges (via Redhill/Sydenham; fast to/from East Croydon)
2tph East Grinstead (via Sydenham; fast to/from East Croydon)
2tph East Croydon (via Sydenham; slow)
2tph Norwood Junction (via Sydenham; slow)
2tph Tunbridge Wells (via New Cross; fast to/from Orpington)
2tph Paddock Wood (via New Cross; fast to/from Orpington)

8-car services via Elephant & Castle

2tph Orpington (via Catford; slow)
2tph Sevenoaks (via Bat and Ball/Catford; slow)
2tph Maidstone East (via Catford; fast between Bromley South and Blackfriars)

In addition to 24tph for Thameslink South, some services will terminate at Blackfriars

8-car services terminating at Blackfriars

2tph London Bridge (via Wimbledon Loop; slow) [potentially 4tph depending on distribtution of platform capacity of London Bridge low level]
2tph Kent House (slow)
2tph Rochester (via Kent House; fast to/from Beckenham Junction)
 
dan_atki

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Edvid said:
[* Most of these services will be run by one driver throughout but jointly operated by FCC and SER; Blackfriars is where the TOC will change]
Click to expand...

I am very intrigued as to how this will be operated on several aspects.

1) Will this be split between both First Capital Connect and Southeastern drivers?
2) Will there be a new livery for such services until they are officially Thameslink Programme services?
3) Will trains on screens/be announced as a different/no operator through or will trains be 'terminating' at Blackfriars? For screens and announcements to say 'Southeastern service to Kentish Town' will be very misleading from a passenger's perspective. Whereas if it was to 'terminate' at Blackfriars then it could be shown as 'Southeastern service to London Blackfriars' and 'FCC service to Kentish Town'.
4) Will these trains be given two headcodes/retail IDs for such journeys?

(I notice, though, that there is a simple solution - simple to me anyway - that would eliminate all of these problems. If a new branding (in effect a 'TOC') was to be made (owned by both FCC and SE), then staff could work for both - no squabbles/strikes over wage differences; Trains could be shown/announced as '[new brand] service to xxx' and could therefore run with one headcode... or is what I suggest totally impossible?).
 
paul1609

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Edvid said:
By the way Suggs, I've just visited your blog and I would like to partially explain how the Thameslink Programme will pan out. I won't delve into everything but there will be a lot to take in anyway.


March 2009

Closure of Moorgate branch and Blackfriars bay platforms

Peak ex-Moorgate/ex-Blackfriars services to be diverted to various (as yet not fully defined) locations on opposite sides of the Thames; all will use the full length of the Thameslink core (Kentish Town - Blackfriars)*

Off-peak ex-Blackfriars services (from Sevenoaks) to be diverted to Kentish Town or a location further north in daylight hours, then to Victoria during weeknights/weekends* - expected to continue until December 2011 I think

Peak hour frequencies in the Thameslink core will be 15tph to/from Thameslink North and 14tph to/from Thameslink South

FCC TL fleet to consist of 86 319s and 23 377s - virtual elimination of 4-car peak hour services

[* Most of these services will be run by one driver throughout but jointly operated by FCC and SER; Blackfriars is where the TOC will change]


December 2009

The recommended Thameslink South peak hour services are as follows:

All services via Elephant & Castle

4tph Wimbledon Loop (2tph anti-clockwise, 2tph clockwise; slow)
2tph Orpington (via Catford; slow)
2tph Sevenoaks (via Bat and Ball/Catford; slow)
2tph Brighton (via Crystal Palace/Herne Hill; fast between East Croydon and Blackfriars)
2tph Kent House (slow)
1tph Rochester (via Catford; fast between Bromley South and Blackfriars)
1tph Maidstone East (via Catford; fast between Bromley South and Blackfriars)


December 2011

FCC TL fleet expanded - 12-car services and more new trains introduced

The recommended Thameslink South peak hour services from December 2009 will continue, along with a new service:

2tph Three Bridges (via Redhill/Streatham/Herne Hill; fast between East Croydon and Blackfriars), bringing the total to 16tph

In addition, the Brighton and Three Bridges services will be lengthened to 12 cars whereas the rest will remain at 8

The majority of Thameslink North peak hour services will be lengthened to 12 cars and will therefore run ECS to/from Blackfriars; the total here is also 16tph


December 2015

Entire FCC TL fleet to consist entirely of brand new trains

The full network will be in place

Thameslink North peak hour services will operate at 24tph - possibly 18 12-car services and 6 8-car services

The recommended Thameslink South services are as follows:

12-car services via London Bridge

4tph Brighton (via Sydenham; fast to/from East Croydon)
2tph Horsham (via Redhill/Sydenham; fast to/from East Croydon)
2tph Three Bridges (via Redhill/Sydenham; fast to/from East Croydon)
2tph East Grinstead (via Sydenham; fast to/from East Croydon)
2tph East Croydon (via Sydenham; slow)
2tph Norwood Junction (via Sydenham; slow)
2tph Tunbridge Wells (via New Cross; fast to/from Orpington)
2tph Paddock Wood (via New Cross; fast to/from Orpington)

8-car services via Elephant & Castle

2tph Orpington (via Catford; slow)
2tph Sevenoaks (via Bat and Ball/Catford; slow)
2tph Maidstone East (via Catford; fast between Bromley South and Blackfriars)

In addition to 24tph for Thameslink South, some services will terminate at Blackfriars

8-car services terminating at Blackfriars

2tph London Bridge (via Wimbledon Loop; slow) [potentially 4tph depending on distribtution of platform capacity of London Bridge low level]
2tph Kent House (slow)
2tph Rochester (via Kent House; fast to/from Beckenham Junction)
Click to expand...

Whilst the above may be asperations there is no way that there is sufficent capacity for 12 Thameslink trains per hour at East Croydon unless there are major infrastructure improvements on the Brighton Mainline.
The original plan had Thameslink taking over paths from Eastbourne/ Littlehampton services. However since Thameslink has been pruned these are no longer available.
I reckon that on the current infrastructure it would be impossible to run more than 6tph south of Norwood Junction.
 
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class 313

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Thanks for uploading that Edvid! It does look like a huge task that I hope FCC can actually make.

Would most of the new services be started from Bedford or Kentish Town?
 
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Edvid

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First of all, sorry for taking so long to reply. Unfortunately I don't know the answer to your question; partly because I don't know what particular 'new services' you're referring to.
 
C

class 313

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Edvid said:
First of all, sorry for taking so long to reply. Unfortunately I don't know the answer to your question; partly because I don't know what particular 'new services' you're referring to.
Click to expand...

It's okay I know the answer to it.
 
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Edvid

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A LondonTravelWatch Board meeting was held on September 2. One of the topics in question was the Thameslink Programme, and below I quote some of the material from Section 313 of http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/3542/get (a PDF file).


The Chair then welcomed Simon Blanchflower of Network Rail, who outlined the works planned at Farringdon and Blackfriars FCC stations. At Farringdon the key programme dates were:

• Enabling works and hoardings August 2008
• Start of advance works Sept 2008
• New northern footbridge installed and completed 1 March 2009
• Advance works completed 1 March 2009
• Commencement of main works 2 March 2009
• Station able to take 12-car trains Dec 2011
• Main works complete Early 2012.

The advance works included:
• New enlarged passenger interchange footbridge at north end
• Stage 1 of new Turnmill Street concourse
• Works to improve interchange between platforms 2 and 3
• North escape stairs from Platform 4
• Temporary shelters at north end of platforms 3 and 4 to encourage people to use the full platform length
• Additional passenger information systems on platforms 3 and 4
• Replacement of existing seats with perch seats to make better use of platform space.

Main works stage 1 comprised:
• Extensions and widening works on platforms 3 and 4
• Modifications to Underground station building
• Works to Cowcross Street bridge and underpinning of Underground station building
• North train shed roof extension (after which temporary shelters would be removed)
• New north escape stairs from platforms 1 and 3
• New lift access to all platforms for mobility impaired passengers.

Main works stage 2 comprised:
• New entrance and concourse on south side of Cowcross Street with direct access to the FCC platforms (3 and 4)
• New entrance/exit on Turnmill Street
• New concourse link to platform 1, interchange footbridge and Cowcross Street
• Minor street works
• New staff accommodation

Main works stage 3 comprised:
• Enhanced high-voltage power supply
• New lighting and power provision
• New fire systems
• New station management system
• New mechanical services e.g. heating and ventilation
• New drainage
• External infrastructure works.

Mr Blanchflower then showed a series of slides showing how Blackfriars would be progressively transformed. The main phases were as follows:
• 2009 : 179 Queen Victoria Street (at corner of frontage) demolished and existing bay platforms removed. Eastern side of bridge structure replaced span by span
• Late 2009-early 2010 : New permanent way installed on east side, new station earthworks
• June 2010 : east side roof constructed across bridge, through tracks switched from west to east side of bridge, west side tracks removed
• June 2010-early 2011 : West side bridge structure replaced and widened span by span
• Mid 2011 : New west side bay platforms and permanent way installed
• December 2011: New south station entrance built and western half of cross-river station roof completed. Completion of whole scheme.

A member expressed concern at the loss of the through Thameslink service to/from the Wimbledon Loop. This was a major local concern. Mr Blanchflower replied that it was not possible to extend Loop station platforms to 12-car length, and the DfT had therefore decided to terminate trains at Blackfriars. Ms Holt suggested that a separate session was needed to discuss this issue.


There is a fleeting mention of Key Output 1 completion being pushed back to May 2012, although the above schedules suggest that 12-car services could still be implemented in December 2011.
 
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Edvid

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Based on plans I've seen the widest parts of the platforms will be the southern end extensions - I reckon the northern ends will, at least in part, remain as narrow as they are today, which can't be helped given the constrained nature of its location.

In the interim the hoardings required for the enlarged interchange bridge towards the north will only serve to narrow the platforms further so Thameslink passengers should strongly consider using the other Central London stations where possible, even after the Farringdon works are complete (by which time the hoardings will be gone).
 
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Edvid

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Exactly a year has passed since the Thameslink Programme works were launched at Luton Airport Parkway, so I've attached a very recent picture of the platform extensions added there.

Only another 7-odd years to go!
 

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Edvid

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Someone outbid me by 20p in the dying seconds, but oh well. :lol:
 
91101

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There's nothing massively tintilating in the pack with the exception of the badge really.
 
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