Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

All Line Rover · 31 Jan 2017

I travel on both Thameslink and Southern regularly and, over the past three months or so, I've had just one ticket check on Thameslink and none on Southern. That's not good enough. It's far more common to see the BTP on Thameslink but they, rightly, do not check tickets (as they are not equipped to check validity).

On that one occasion when there was a ticket check on Thameslink, my Oyster card was accepted without question in the declassified first class compartment, but there was another gentleman who was both unaware of the declassification and hadn't even purchased a ticket! You've got to wonder sometimes. It's almost as if some people want to get caught (but, by and large given the frequency of ticket inspections, they won't).

I also find that the leading first class compartment (i.e. the real first class compartment) tends to be standing room only on trains leaving St Pancras for St Albans in the evening peak. I suspect the same applies in the reverse direction in the morning peak; possibly also on trains between at least East Croydon and Blackfriars in the morning peak. Suffice to say, I am glad I have no need to purchase a first class season ticket for regular travel on Thameslink during the morning peak. If I had such travel patterns, I would only purchase a first class season ticket once both first class compartments are enforced as first class and I see more regular RPI inspections.

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spark001uk · 1 Feb 2017

Class377/5 said:
I've had a ticket check every time I ridden a Thameslink unit lately apart from getting the 05.44 on early turn. And my trips have been at various hours and not aligned with revenue staff start times either.

You must have been the lucky one then! (and any fare-dodgers the unlucky ones!)

tsr · 1 Feb 2017

spark001uk said:
I've seen plenty of rif-raf in the 1st at both ends on the 700s (and other stock and other TOCs for that matter) who clearly aren't 1st passengers, saw a group the other day in 1st on a southern 377.
Thing is I rarely see RPIs doing a sweep on Southern DOO, and I don't think I've ever seen one on TL. So they're just going to keep doing it I guess, or even worse not have a ticket at all.

Southern don't have RPIs any more - they were all converted to OBSs last year. In fact that was the first role to be converted, way before any conductors and with little publicity.

Deepgreen said:
First class checking on Southern and TL are a thing of the past.

You can have it on very good authority from me that it isn't. Indeed I can think of two Southern routes very near where you travel where I am aware of a double-figure number of people being picked up on both this and other matters over the last couple of weeks. Not forgetting that some of that time involved declassification across the SN network too.

However...

Class377/5 said:
I've had a ticket check every time I ridden a Thameslink unit lately apart from getting the 05.44 on early turn. And my trips have been at various hours and not aligned with revenue staff start times either.

... I do find this a bit hard to believe - I have been commuting on a 24/7 shift pattern and using Thameslink services a lot lately, especially with the Southern driver issues, and I think I've seen one check during the entire winter. Not to mention my leisure journeys from places like St Pancras to Gatwick, which is more than enough time to see regular checks in action.

If anything I would say TL ticket inspections have decreased in frequency since the FCC days. I used to see some very good "firm but fair" stings on the BML a few years back - now it's the odd lone Passenger Host every few months.

Abpj17 · 1 Feb 2017

spark001uk said:
I've seen plenty of rif-raf in the 1st at both ends on the 700s (and other stock and other TOCs for that matter) who clearly aren't 1st passengers, saw a group the other day in 1st on a southern 377.
Thing is I rarely see RPIs doing a sweep on Southern DOO, and I don't think I've ever seen one on TL. So they're just going to keep doing it I guess, or even worse not have a ticket at all.

On your side note, yes the REPs were a beast, they weren't normally allowed to run with no TCs, but I remember once or twice in the 80s coming up from BMH on one solo due to stock shortage. That certainly shifted some!

Riff raff are allowed at the back of the 700s tho - it's not actually 1st class.

I'm rather hoping the policy persist (the declass, not the riff raff) - it's compensating for lack of tables in the rest of the train and means I can get some work done.

The not being able to see the sign until you're actually in the declass section is bizarre. With the 8 carriages you invariably have to check the platforms screens as well - a lot of the late night ones are timetabled as standard class only (hence more declass).

Class377/5 · 1 Feb 2017

tsr said:
... I do find this a bit hard to believe - I have been commuting on a 24/7 shift pattern and using Thameslink services a lot lately, especially with the Southern driver issues, and I think I've seen one check during the entire winter. Not to mention my leisure journeys from places like St Pancras to Gatwick, which is more than enough time to see regular checks in action.

If anything I would say TL ticket inspections have decreased in frequency since the FCC days. I used to see some very good "firm but fair" stings on the BML a few years back - now it's the odd lone Passenger Host every few months.

You may find it hard to believe it but it's the truth. Maybe I just look shifty?

In fact I've just had a ticket check in the middle of reading your post!

However I realise I meant to put I've had a ticket check pretty much everyone not always had one. Sorry if this seems misleading.

Class377/5 · 1 Feb 2017

Class 700 update 01/02/17

Deliveries

Unit 1 - 700106 - 31/07/15
Unit 2 - 700107 - 30/09/15
Unit 3 - 700108 - 28/10/15
Unit 4 - 700110 - 16/12/15
Unit 5 - 700109 - 06/01/16
Unit 6 - 700111 - 20/01/16
Unit 7 - 700102 - 02/03/16
Unit 8 - 700002 - 09/03/16
Unit 9 - 700112 - 16/03/16
Unit 10 - 700103 - 23/03/16
Unit 11 - 700113 - 30/03/16
Unit 12 - 700114 - 20/04/16
Unit 13 - 700003 - 27/04/16
Unit 14 - 700004 - 04/05/16
Unit 15 - 700005 - 18/05/16
Unit 16 - 700104 - 01/06/16
Unit 17 - 700006 - 08/06/16
Unit 18 - 700007 - 29/06/16
Unit 19 - 700105 - 06/07/16
Unit 20 - 700010 - 13/07/16
Unit 21 - 700115 - 20/07/16
Unit 22 - 700008 - 27/07/16
Unit 23 - 700014 - 10/08/16
Unit 24 - 700101 - 17/08/16
Unit 25 - 700018 - 24/08/16
Unit 26 - 700015 - 29/08/16
Unit 27 - 700019 - 07/09/16
Unit 28 - 700016 - 14/09/16
Unit 29 - 700020 - 21/09/16
Unit 30 - 700021 - 28/09/16
Unit 31 - 700023 - 04/10/16
Unit 32 - 700027 - 02/11/16
Unit 33 - 700030 - 09/11/16
Unit 34 - 700009 - 22/11/16
Unit 35 - 700012 - 30/11/16
Unit 36 - 700017 - 14/12/16
Unit 37 - 700036 - 15/12/16
Unit 38 - 700028 - 21/12/16
Unit 39 - 700029 - 29/12/16
Unit 40 - 700024 - 10/01/17
Unit 41 - 700031 - 12/01/17
Unit 42 - 700033 - 18/01/17
Unit 43 - 700039 - 25/01/17
Unit 44 - 700037 - 01/02/17
*
In service
*
700002 - 06/10/16
700003 - 04/10/16
700005 - 26/10/16
700006 - 16/12/16
700007 - 09/12/16
700008 - 03/10/16
700009 – 24/12/16
700010 - 13/12/16
700014 - 25/10/16
700015 - 10/12/16
700016 - 24/12/16
700017 – 09/01/17
700018 - 02/12/16
700019 - 07/10/16
700020 - 01/02/17
700021 – 09/01/17
700023 - 25/11/16
700030 - 16/12/17
700031 - 01/02/17
700036 - 16/01/17

700101 - 01/11/16
700102 - 29/07/16
700103 - 30/08/16
700104 - 12/07/16
700105 - 21/11/16
700106 - 21/11/16
700107 - 04/07/16
700108 - 20/06/16
700109 - 21/06/16
700110 - 02/08/16
700111 - 25/08/16
700112 - 20/07/16
700113 - 25/07/16
700114 - 04/07/16
700115 - 15/11/16

Peter Sarf · 1 Feb 2017

Thanks for the above list of what is delivered and what is in service Class377/5. Very informative.

A question I have is why there are so many gaps in the 700/0s that have entered in to service ?. I know that the 700/1s so far delivered did not arrive in order but have perhaps been here long enough to end up as a contiguous block now they are in service. I also appreciate that an individual unit might get held up if testing in Germany fails something. Then entry into service will further be delayed for those units failing anything in the UK. So I expect it to be a bit random but the magnitude of the randomness puzzles me.

hwl · 1 Feb 2017

Peter Sarf said:
A question I have is why there are so many gaps in the 700/0 entry to service ?.

The missing ones are in sidings in Germany and Netherlands which suggests Siemens are having issues as they are building the cars quicker (at the factory) than they can assemble them into units and then test and get them fault free (at the test track).

Deepgreen · 1 Feb 2017

Class377/5 said:
You may find it hard to believe it but it's the truth. Maybe I just look shifty?

In fact I've just had a ticket check in the middle of reading your post!

However I realise I meant to put I've had a ticket check pretty much everyone not always had one. Sorry if this seems misleading.

Not misleading; just impossible to decipher!

tsr · 1 Feb 2017

Class377/5 said:
You may find it hard to believe it but it's the truth. Maybe I just look shifty?

In fact I've just had a ticket check in the middle of reading your post!

However I realise I meant to put I've had a ticket check pretty much everyone not always had one. Sorry if this seems misleading.

They're only trying to get a sneak preview of your forum posts with all the unit numbers, don't worry...

Deepgreen · 1 Feb 2017

tsr said:
Southern don't have RPIs any more - they were all converted to OBSs last year. In fact that was the first role to be converted, way before any conductors and with little publicity.

You can have it on very good authority from me that it isn't. Indeed I can think of two Southern routes very near where you travel where I am aware of a double-figure number of people being picked up on both this and other matters over the last couple of weeks. Not forgetting that some of that time involved declassification across the SN network too.

However...

... I do find this a bit hard to believe - I have been commuting on a 24/7 shift pattern and using Thameslink services a lot lately, especially with the Southern driver issues, and I think I've seen one check during the entire winter. Not to mention my leisure journeys from places like St Pancras to Gatwick, which is more than enough time to see regular checks in action.

If anything I would say TL ticket inspections have decreased in frequency since the FCC days. I used to see some very good "firm but fair" stings on the BML a few years back - now it's the odd lone Passenger Host every few months.

I must just be missing them then, because I, a) haven't had a ticket check for many months on GTR, and; b) have yet to see any Southern on-train staff walking through since the DOO dispute started.

Peter Sarf · 1 Feb 2017

Class377/5 said:
You may find it hard to believe it but it's the truth. Maybe I just look shifty?

In fact I've just had a ticket check in the middle of reading your post!

However I realise I meant to put I've had a ticket check pretty much everyone not always had one. Sorry if this seems misleading.

I think "they" are watching you

. And then when you notice them they fake a ticket check :lol:

.

Alancat · 1 Feb 2017

Abpj17 said:
Riff raff are allowed at the back of the 700s tho - it's not actually 1st class.

I'm rather hoping the policy persist (the declass, not the riff raff) - it's compensating for lack of tables in the rest of the train and means I can get some work done.

The not being able to see the sign until you're actually in the declass section is bizarre. With the 8 carriages you invariably have to check the platforms screens as well - a lot of the late night ones are timetabled as standard class only (hence more declass).

Long time reader, first time poster...

Clearly large first class sections are inappropriate on the mainline, particularly in thameslink where journeys are regularly 90 mins + which would be uncomfortable in standard.

However as someone able to afford a first class ticket myself (or rather work pays...) the thing that gets me is why theyve declassified the rear first class when the front would be most appropriate.

Haywards Heath (where I often travel to/from), the exits southbound (biggest passenger flow in peak) are all at the rear.

Wiveksfield and Burgess Hill the same.

Hassocks and PP also.

Northbound, three bridges, Farringdon, Blackfriars all have the most popular exists at the rear.

Only the southbound terminus, Brighton, has the main exits at the front.

So I would like to see TL offer a better service to we who pay for first class by declassifying the most useful end of the train. It seems bizarre they haven't done it the other way, as if the decision was made at random and/or with no experience of the line...

Alancat · 1 Feb 2017

Peter Sarf said:
I think "they" are watching you . And then when you notice them they fake a ticket check .

Also, gotta add that in five years of travelling on TL I have never seen ticket inspectors check anywhere other than first class. They do that section then just stand there until changing trains usually.

Abpj17 · 1 Feb 2017

Blackfriars, the front northbound is busier. As trains run north and south I suspect there was never going to be a 'right' answer for which end of the train. Rear de-class is probably marginally better as there are still some services where some of the rear doors don't open on certain platforms and you have to walk forward.

Alancat · 1 Feb 2017

Abpj17 said:
Blackfriars, the front northbound is busier. As trains run north and south I suspect there was never going to be a 'right' answer for which end of the train. Rear de-class is probably marginally better as there are still some services where some of the rear doors don't open on certain platforms and you have to walk forward.

in my experience the rear carriage (near the 'city' exit) is usually busier, but I imagine it's a wash...

But the short platforms makes sense. Though they could solve any problems by keeping first class in the middle as it often was on past models.

Class377/5 · 1 Feb 2017

Peter Sarf said:
Thanks for the above list of what is delivered and what is in service Class377/5. Very informative.

A question I have is why there are so many gaps in the 700/0s that have entered in to service ?. I know that the 700/1s so far delivered did not arrive in order but have perhaps been here long enough to end up as a contiguous block now they are in service. I also appreciate that an individual unit might get held up if testing in Germany fails something. Then entry into service will further be delayed for those units failing anything in the UK. So I expect it to be a bit random but the magnitude of the randomness puzzles me.

hwl said:
The missing ones are in sidings in Germany and Netherlands which suggests Siemens are having issues as they are building the cars quicker (at the factory) than they can assemble them into units and then test and get them fault free (at the test track).

Basically what hwl states. Remember Siemens testing facilities has to share with all of Siemens others orders like the 707 and even the 374's at one point. All the missing 700/0 are either in the UK on commissioning (currently 9 units not yet in service but in the UK) or Wildenrath.

Abpj17 said:
Blackfriars, the front northbound is busier. As trains run north and south I suspect there was never going to be a 'right' answer for which end of the train. Rear de-class is probably marginally better as there are still some services where some of the rear doors don't open on certain platforms and you have to walk forward.

Indeed. Changing the 'London direction' mid routes means there is no one good place, unlike most other TOCs.

Class377/5 · 1 Feb 2017

Alancat said:
in my experience the rear carriage (near the 'city' exit) is usually busier, but I imagine it's a wash...

But the short platforms makes sense. Though they could solve any problems by keeping first class in the middle as it often was on past models.

Disable area is in the middle for easy boarding and exiting (with the soon to be installed platform humps) so the first class would have to be off centre. Plus then you get people walking through which is a common complaint. being at the ends means you keep the thoroughfare down to a minimum level.

Class377/5 · 1 Feb 2017

Just boarded a Thameslink Train. Revenue staff onboard and actively doing ticket checks through the train.

Seems I'm having a different experience than many. However are those seeing no checks peak passengers?

Peter Sarf · 1 Feb 2017

Class377/5 said:
Just boarded a Thameslink Train. Revenue staff onboard and actively doing ticket checks through the train.

Seems I'm having a different experience than many. However are those seeing no checks peak passengers?

Ah, quite possible. I suspect that (peak vs off-peak) is why.

JonathanH · 1 Feb 2017

No sign of a revenue inspector on the 2247 Sutton to Bedford round the Wimbledon loop this evening with 700031.

Boarding at West Sutton only the doors on the front four coaches were released - should I be expecting this and standing alongside those coaches? Is the driver stopping in marginally the wrong place?

ComUtoR · 2 Feb 2017

I see Revenue quite regularly. But I am on the train much more than most. If your a regular traveller but use more specific services you only see a tiny portion of what happens.

Deepgreen · 2 Feb 2017

ComUtoR said:
I see Revenue quite regularly. But I am on the train much more than most. If your a regular traveller but use more specific services you only see a tiny portion of what happens.

Obviously true - but even if one catches the same set of trains every day one might expect to see checks occasionally on those particular trains - peak or off-peak. My experience has been that my regular trains have never been checked.

asylumxl · 2 Feb 2017

I certainly still see ticket checks on my commute on TL, usually when leaving St Albans southbound, St Pancras northbound and sometimes Harpenden in both directions (due to the barriers usually being open).

Having said that, I feel that the number of checks has dropped in recent months.

tramps01 · 2 Feb 2017

Alancat;

Nobody has mentioned the first class passenger who joins at Brighton and wants to alight at Blackfriars. Perhaps he would be due a rebate for shoe leather. The same arguments were around on the introduction of the 319's when we told the first class would be at the London end, but never told in which direction.

Class 466 · 2 Feb 2017

Been reported elsewhere that Sunday is the last day of 387s on TL, that must mean more 700 Diagrams are coming surely?

Deepgreen · 2 Feb 2017

tramps01 said:
Alancat;

Nobody has mentioned the first class passenger who joins at Brighton and wants to alight at Blackfriars. Perhaps he would be due a rebate for shoe leather. The same arguments were around on the introduction of the 319's when we told the first class would be at the London end, but never told in which direction.

You are assuming that he (or she!) will only use the rear exit at Blackfriars? If so, the return journey will balance things.

W230 · 2 Feb 2017

JonathanH said:
Boarding at West Sutton only the doors on the front four coaches were released - should I be expecting this and standing alongside those coaches? Is the driver stopping in marginally the wrong place?

Nope. It'll be a door fault. The stopping point is exact in the core but not at other stations. This door fault does rear its head from time to time - did it happen at other stations round the loop?

Deepgreen · 2 Feb 2017

W230 said:
Nope. It'll be a door fault. The stopping point is exact in the core but not at other stations. This door fault does rear its head from time to time - did it happen at other stations round the loop?

I thought it was precise at all stations, which is why they have been equipped with the 'FLU' and 'RLU' signs even where they are only a couple of feet away from existing stop boards.

Class377/5 · 2 Feb 2017

Only opening four doors is the emergency release as the train knows its not it the right place and IIRC that's regarless of the stopping place. Same thing happens with a 377 if you stop in the incorrect position.

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