Fife Circle - valid on Rosyth to Edinburgh?

yorkie · 29 Jun 2009

What's the concensus on this then...

It looks like a Rosyth to Edinburgh ticket should be valid via the 'long way' round the Fife circle, as the trains are through trains.

This is shown as valid on online booking sites.

Views?

RailUK Forums

90019 · 29 Jun 2009

I'm not sure they are, because I think one of the stations further round is considered to be like a terminus, so that you don't have trains from Edinburgh-Edinburgh. I can't remember which one it is, though.

glynn80 · 30 Jun 2009

yorkie said:
What's the concensus on this then...

It looks like a Rosyth to Edinburgh ticket should be valid via the 'long way' round the Fife circle, as the trains are through trains.

This is shown as valid on online booking sites.

Views?

This is the paragraph relating to the issue within the Routeing Guide

ATOC Routeing Guide said:
Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route. A through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct service which offers travel between a customer’s origin station and final destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made. This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey. The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable.

So as it states, a journey made on a through train is a permitted route so long as this service is advertised as such in the passenger railway timetable.

If we take the NRT to be the "passenger railway timetable", then the services are not advertised as through services (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May09/timetables/Table242.pdf). The services are shown as, on the outward, a Newcraighall to Glenrothes service via Dunfermline and then the return as a Glenrothes to Edinburgh service via Kirkcaldy.

If we take the Scotrail timetable to be the "passenger railway timetable", then the services are advertised as through services (http://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/files/Edinburgh&FifeMay09.pdf).

me123 · 30 Jun 2009

I'm positive that you can use it, although haven't tried it myself. Indeed, I've heard that Haymarket-Edinburgh tickets are valid via the Fife Circle, although I don't think passengers in Glenrothes would be happy about that!

Rosyth via Glenrothes, however, is definitely valid. It's advertised as a direct train to Edinburgh and you don't double back. NXEC's site will happily sell you a ticket for the service.

[goes slightly off topic]

I've found a couple of interesting articles on the Scot-rail website, where they've discussed this at length, which may be of interest to you Yorkie. However, you do need to sign up to view them if you've not already done so. This is for Haymarket-Edinburgh which is obviously a more complex issue than Rosyth.

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/message/151978: states that yes the ticket around the Fife Circle is valid
http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/message/152161: Contradicts this earlier advice

Thewanderer · 30 Jun 2009

So as I understand it, a Waterloo - Earsfield ticket be vaild on a Waterloo - Waterloo roundabout via Richmond and Kingston?

yorkie · 30 Jun 2009

It's what the timetable says, not what announcements say.

But remember you can't double-back! So a ticket from Edinburgh to Haymarket isn't going to be valid.

90019 · 30 Jun 2009

me123 said:
Indeed, I've heard that Haymarket-Edinburgh tickets are valid via the Fife Circle, although I don't think passengers in Glenrothes would be happy about that!

I think this is a myth.
For the 67s, I think their terminus is Glenrothes, although I'm not too sure if it is, so AFAIK, you'd technically need a return from there to go from Edinburgh round the Fife Circle and back.

Without doubling back, the first stations you could get a return to are Rosyth or Dalgety Bay, which I think you could get away with.

yorkie · 30 Jun 2009

Where is this terminus stated? It's not in any timetables or journey planners that I'm aware of?

And yes I totally agree about Haymarket but it is indeed Rosyth that is being debated, and I cannot see anything to suggest it's not valid. Ticket issuing websites agree.

glynn80 · 30 Jun 2009

yorkie said:
Where is this terminus stated? It's not in any timetables or journey planners that I'm aware of?

Have you not read my post above, it is stated in the NRT.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May09/timetables/Table242.pdf

me123 · 30 Jun 2009

Terminus stated on departure screens only, I imagine to avoid confusion for passengers.

Rosyth is, as I say, definitely valid. I'm not sure if it's advertised as an Edinburgh service from Rosyth, but the ticket is valid without a doubt as far as I can see.

Glynn, on the national rail TT, I'm seeing them as through services, although it's a Newcraighall-Glenrothes via Dunblane with a letter indicating that the train thereafter continues to Edinburgh via Kirkcaldy, which I'm assuming to mean that it is a "through service".

For example, 0604 Newcraighall-Glenrothes has a letter C at the top of the column, indicating that the train: "(continues) To Edinburgh via Kirkcaldy"

yorkie · 30 Jun 2009

glynn80 said:
Have you not read my post above, it is stated in the NRT.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/eNRT/May09/timetables/Table242.pdf

I was replying to 90019 but the link you gives shows them denoted as through services, it's just that they don't list stations twice so Glenrothes is at the bottom of the page. It clearly gives a footnote stating that the trains continue e.g. "C To Edinburgh via Kirkcaldy"S o this is proof that they are indeed through services, and all the journey planners say they are too.

Tugzrule · 30 Jun 2009

Thanks for posting this yorkie. Not had a reply to my second email about the Rosyth return, but as has been said it involves no doubling back so should be legal. Slightly off topic i take it they are ok for spotting at Edinburgh and photting. Have read the message on the scotrail homepage and it says ok but i was wondering if anyone had any personal problems there.

90019 · 30 Jun 2009

Tugzrule said:
Slightly off topic i take it they are ok for spotting at Edinburgh and photting.

Whenever I've been at Waverley, I've never had any issues with the staff.

If you do go to Waverley, you might also want to try a bit slightly to the west, just by Princes Street Gardens. Send me a PM if you want more info about it

dan_atki · 30 Jun 2009

Slightly off-topic - same principle, different area but an issue I'm interested in nonetheless.

The route I'm talking about is the SWT figure of six: Salisbury > Romsey > Southampton Central > Eastleigh > Romsey.

Say I wanted to travel from Salisbury to Romsey (or vice versa) via Southampton. Is this valid? It is shown as a through train in the timetable (although screens and announcements at Salisbury indicate a terminus of Chandler's Ford, and at Romsey as Redbridge in the opposite direction).

Before you all jump the gun with this 'no doubling back through Romsey' issue - doubling back is a Routeing Guide rule, and if on a through train you're not meant to consult the RG, so in theory you're not breaking any rule... takes on this?

me123 · 30 Jun 2009

That's the same as my theory on the Haymarket-Edinburgh via Fife Train; the links I posted above indicate that even First Scotrail can't decide! On one hand, the RG says no doubling back, so it's not valid. On the other, it's a through train so it's valid. I cite the Inverness-Wick train as an example of this; you are permitted to double back on the Georgemas Junction-Thurso part simply because it's a through train. No guard in their right mind would kick you off at Georgemas and make you wait 'till it came back!

Obviously the answer should really be that this is not permitted, and I think you'd have a hard time convincing staff that it is. But the routeing guide simply is not clear on these, admittedly rare, occurrences.

glynn80 · 30 Jun 2009

dan_atki said:
Slightly off-topic - same principle, different area but an issue I'm interested in nonetheless.

The route I'm talking about is the SWT figure of six: Salisbury > Romsey > Southampton Central > Eastleigh > Romsey.

Say I wanted to travel from Salisbury to Romsey (or vice versa) via Southampton. Is this valid? It is shown as a through train in the timetable (although screens and announcements at Salisbury indicate a terminus of Chandler's Ford, and at Romsey as Redbridge in the opposite direction).

But surely you have already reached your destination on your ticket when you pass through Romsey the first time and thus your journey has been completed?

dan_atki · 30 Jun 2009

glynn80 said:
But surely you have already reached your destination on your ticket when you pass through Romsey the first time and thus your journey has been completed?

Ok maybe in that case, I'm guessing overdistance excess if you stay on the train? (What this excess would be if you was continuing around the loop to Romsey again I don't quite know :?).

What about Romsey to Salisbury via Southampton on a direct train then?

EDIT:
What is worth noting is the differences in the two main online ticketing systems.

thetrainline based systems deem both of the journeys as VALID via Southampton, it will allow me to book a ticket.

webTIS based systems, on the other hand, will not even give me an itenary for Romsey to Salisbury via Southampton but will for Salisbury to Romsey. Upon clicking on one of these, the only available fare greys out indicating NOT VALID...

Hmmmm, can of worms!

krus_aragon · 30 Jun 2009

Can of worms indeed. The 'Direct Train' argument could be taken to extend to loop lines (Chester-Liverpool-Chester). But Chester to Bache via Liverpool Central isn't really sensible in the least.

dan_atki · 30 Jun 2009

krus_aragon said:
But Chester to Bache via Liverpool Central isn't really sensible in the least.

Don't get me started on sensibility with loop lines!

Have a play around with the fares for any station on the Southampton side of Romsey and tell me why they are not flat fared - huge anamoly! I could buy a Chandler's Ford to Romsey season and have unlimited travel on the loop (which is as far south as Redbridge) - this doesn't make sense at all.

With singles and returns, all I need to do is ensure I'm going to Romsey in the correct direction as it were and I'd save money.

E.G. Eastleigh to Romsey is £5.10 single (even the same price with a split at Chandler's Ford)! But a Chandler's Ford to Romsey single is £3.40 (if travelling via Southampton), or a Redbridge to Romsey single is £3.60 (if travelling via Chandler's Ford).

156499 · 30 Jun 2009

Return to Glenrothes or Kirkcaldy

yorkie · 30 Jun 2009

156499 said:
Return to Glenrothes or Kirkcaldy

Huh?

Tugzrule · 7 Jul 2009

Had this reply off Scotrail a few days ago

Dear Steven

Thank you for your further email dated 29 June 2009 concerning your recent correspondence with our office.

I can confirm that due to the limitations of the booking system from time to time it will give erroneous fares such as the one you wish to purchase for travelling round the Fife circle. We are aware of this issue and are currently taking this matter up with the Associated Train Operating Companies to find a solution.

However the purchase of a ticket to travel from Edinburgh to Haymarket is not a valid ticket to travel round the Fife circle, the shortest route must be taken, nor is a return ticket from Edinburgh to Rosyth a valid ticket as you would not be returning via the same direction.

As previously advised if you wished to do this journey a ticket from Edinburgh to Glenrothes and a ticket from Glenrothes to Haymarket would be required. I do apologise for any inconvenience you may have been caused.

Thank you for contacting ScotRail. I am grateful to you for bringing this matter to my attention. Should you need to reply to this email, please respond to [email protected].

Yours sincerely

Kim Gillman
Customer Relations Advisor

Is it just me or is this now getting a bit confusing now. i have already booked a ticket from Edinburgh to rosyth so it looks like half an hour on the 67 then?

tony_mac · 7 Jul 2009

nor is a return ticket from Edinburgh to Rosyth a valid ticket as you would not be returning via the same direction

Isn't that just made-up nonsense? So you can go the long way round, as long as you go back the same way?

dan_atki · 7 Jul 2009

tony_mac said:
Isn't that just made-up nonsense? So you can go the long way round, as long as you go back the same way?

Indeed it is a load of tosh - just because you go out one way doesn't mean you have to return the exact same way. You can use any route shown as valid in the routeing guide for either leg!

'The shortest route must be taken' is also rubbish as anyone who's read the first page of the routeing guide can tell you. Indeed, it defeats the point of a routeing guide in the first place!

If I want to go from Southampton to London via Portsmouth, Chichester, Brighton, Lewes, and Gatwick Airport then I can as it's a valid route according to the NRG - by no means the shortest available!

yorkie · 7 Jul 2009

The customer advisor is wrong.

Unless ATOC change the direct trains rule (unlikely) then the only thing FSR can do to make it invalid is to split the train into two (I think this would require DfT approval).

I think we should do a forum trip on the 67s using Rosyth tickets to prove a point!

garnon · 18 Mar 2010

yorkie said:
The customer advisor is wrong.

Unless ATOC change the direct trains rule (unlikely) then the only thing FSR can do to make it invalid is to split the train into two (I think this would require DfT approval).

I think we should do a forum trip on the 67s using Rosyth tickets to prove a point!

I plan to take this trip next week. Is the current thinking unchanged (ie a return from Edinburgh - Rosyth and back) provides validity for the full evening round service ?

Mojo · 18 Mar 2010

Recently the routeing guide has been amended with so called "negative easements" prohibiting travel the "wrong way" around the Fife Circle, however many are not convinced they can be enforced as the routeing guide only needs to be consulted if the route is not the shortest (or within 3 Miles of the shortest) or if you are not travelling on a direct train.

Certaintly the flow chart on the instructions page to me reads:
1. Shortest route (or within 3 Miles of it)?
Yes = make your journey
No =
2. Through train?
Yes = make your journey
No = consult routeing guide

And thus the "negative easements" would only be seen if you are required to consult the guide; which is not a requirement for through trains.

yorkie · 18 Mar 2010

Anyone doing this should be armed with appropriate documentation (book the ticket online - if it will let you) and be ready to fight a case if FSR take it to court. I think that a customer doing this would have a good case (IANAL!) but it could be time consuming and possibly costly (would legal aid be available if FSR tried to persue you for payment? I do not know).

OwlMan · 18 Mar 2010

Mojo said:
Recently the routeing guide has been amended with so called "negative easements" prohibiting travel the "wrong way" around the Fife Circle, however many are not convinced they can be enforced as the routeing guide only needs to be consulted if the route is not the shortest (or within 3 Miles of the shortest) or if you are not travelling on a direct train.

Certaintly the flow chart on the instructions page to me reads:
1. Shortest route (or within 3 Miles of it)?
Yes = make your journey
No =
2. Through train?
Yes = make your journey
No = consult routeing guide

And thus the "negative easements" would only be seen if you are required to consult the guide; which is not a requirement for through trains.

Yes I agree, but you are not allowed to break the journey, as stated by ATOC in a query about Romsey - Eastleigh journeys.

ATOC said:
I have noted your comments regarding a break of journey at Eastleigh with a ticket from Romsey to Southampton Central. Whilst your ticket may allow a break of journey, this is only possible at a station on the permitted route for the journey stated on the ticket. The permitted routes for the journey in question are by a through train or by a train which takes the shortest route in accordance with Condition 13 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC). The break of journey rules as quoted in Condition 16 of the NRCoC cannot be read in isolation to the other conditions.

Your journey is not by the shortest route but it is possible to travel on a through train via Chandler’s Ford. Condition 13 allows you to travel on a ‘through train’ and the definition to support the meaning of ‘through train’ clearly states that this is where you make the entire journey without changing trains. The entire journey in your case is Romsey to Southampton Central and therefore if you break your journey at Eastleigh, you would be in breach of Condition 13.

Given the above, I support South West Trains’ view that your ticket is not valid for a break of journey at Eastleigh. If you wish to travel from Romsey to Southampton Central with a break of journey at Eastleigh you will need to purchase separate tickets i.e. Romsey to Eastleigh and Eastleigh to Southampton Central.

So on an Edinburgh to Rosyth ticket you can travel the long way as long as you travel on one through train all the way from Edinburgh to Rosyth

Peter

Fife Circle - valid on Rosyth to Edinburgh?

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