Ebbsfleet to London Terminals Ticket

SimonH · 8 Nov 2010

Hi,

I'm thinking about changing my season ticket to the HS1 route. The only sticking point is how to get from Stratford International to London Liverpool Street.

If I use the underground, I'll need to add tube travel onto my costs. But I'm wondering if a ticket from Ebbsfleet to 'London Terminals' will be valid on the overground from Stratford mainline to Liverpool Street at no extra cost?

Any thoughts will be gratefully received.

Thanks,
Simon
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Answered my own question - finally got throught to someone who understood what I was asking, and yes the ticket would be valid on the Stratford - Liverpool Street section of the journey.

RailUK Forums

swt_passenger · 8 Nov 2010

SimonH said:
Hi,

I'm thinking about changing my season ticket to the HS1 route. The only sticking point is how to get from Stratford International to London Liverpool Street.

If I use the underground, I'll need to add tube travel onto my costs. But I'm wondering if a ticket from Ebbsfleet to 'London Terminals' will be valid on the overground from Stratford mainline to Liverpool Street at no extra cost?

Any thoughts will be gratefully received.

Thanks,
Simon
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Answered my own question - finally got throught to someone who understood what I was asking, and yes the ticket would be valid on the Stratford - Liverpool Street section of the journey.

There is also dual availability of LU/NR tickets between Stratford and Liverpool St isn't there? So you should be ok on the Central Line into Liverpool St as well?

clagmonster · 8 Nov 2010

Ebsfleet Internation is a routeing point. Liverpool St is a member of the London Group. Routeing permissions for London Group-Ebbsfleet are HK and HS.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/permitted_route_identifier.pdf

Neither map features Liverpool St, so it is not a mapped route.

You would obviously not be using a direct train, so the only hope is that, according to the NRT, your desired route is the shortest route, ie Liverpool St is closer to Stratford than St Pancras is to Stratford International. Sadly, the current national timetable does not include the mileages, so I can't comment on that situation.

b0b · 8 Nov 2010

http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=482811&postcount=20

Liverpool St to Stratford leg is 4 miles.
St Pancras to Stratford Intl is 6 miles.

button_boxer · 8 Nov 2010

clagmonster said:
the only hope is that, according to the NRT, your desired route is the shortest route, ie Liverpool St is closer to Stratford than St Pancras is to Stratford International. Sadly, the current national timetable does not include the mileages, so I can't comment on that situation.

http://mileage.railmiles.org seems to think that it is. Stratford to Liverpool Street 4mi 03ch, International to St Pancras 5mi 79ch.

b0b · 8 Nov 2010

button_boxer said:
http://mileage.railmiles.org seems to think that it is. Stratford to Liverpool Street 4mi 03ch, International to St Pancras 5mi 79ch.

the mileages I quoted came from the NRT, an old one I happened to have kept around, which is the "official" source.

clagmonster · 8 Nov 2010

Thanks, Bob, I would say it is valid by the shortest route rule.
I would agree with swt_passenger that the ticket is valid on both Central Line and BR services to Stratford-Liverpool St, but not at intermediate stations on the Central Line.

SimonH · 9 Nov 2010

Thanks for all the advice.

I'm confident that the ticket will be valid for the Stratford-Liverpool St. route, I didn't know about the ability to use the ticket on LU between Stratford and Liverpool St.

All I need to do now is calculate how much my current journey is actually costing in car running costs, at the moment I drive halfway/use train for the rest. If my rough calculations are correct, I'll not be too out of pocket with switching to the HS1 route but should be able to be home earlier each evening which is always a good thing.

dz629 · 9 Nov 2010

clagmonster said:
Thanks, Bob, I would say it is valid by the shortest route rule.
I would agree with swt_passenger that the ticket is valid on both Central Line and BR services to Stratford-Liverpool St, but not at intermediate stations on the Central Line.

clagmonster, I have been commuting between Gravesend and Liverpool street since last year using my Gravesend to London Terminals season ticket. I change at Stratford for National Rail trains wih no problems. I tried to use the Central Line this morning. My ticket wouldn't let me through the barriers and the guy at the barriers advised me that my ticket was not valid. I explained him the routing rules. He still wouldn't let me through. Likely, I had my oyster card with me.

wintonian · 9 Nov 2010

clagmonster said:
You would obviously not be using a direct train, so the only hope is that, according to the NRT, your desired route is the shortest route, ie Liverpool St is closer to Stratford than St Pancras is to Stratford International. Sadly, the current national timetable does not include the mileages, so I can't comment on that situation.

Or within 3 miles of the shortest, not that it matters in this case.

swt_passenger · 9 Nov 2010

dz629 said:
clagmonster, I have been commuting between Gravesend and Liverpool street since last year using my Gravesend to London Terminals season ticket. I change at Stratford for National Rail trains wih no problems. I tried to use the Central Line this morning. My ticket wouldn't let me through the barriers and the guy at the barriers advised me that my ticket was not valid. I explained him the routing rules. He still wouldn't let me through. Likely, I had my oyster card with me.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be valid, the LU barrier person probably doesn't realise cos he just sees the origin as unusual. 'The Manual' should confirm the joint availability.

Southeastern probably just haven't added the necessary mag stripe coding for letting you out at Liverpool St LU.

dz629 · 9 Nov 2010

swt_passenger said:
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be valid, the LU barrier person probably doesn't realise cos he just sees the origin as unusual. 'The Manual' should confirm the joint availability.

Southeastern probably just haven't added the necessary mag stripe coding for letting you out at Liverpool St LU.

What do we tell the barrier person? Is there something we can print and take with us?

b0b · 9 Nov 2010

dz629 said:
What do we tell the barrier person? Is there something we can print and take with us?

As far as I know, the LU inter-availability is not documented in the public domain.

W-on-Sea · 9 Nov 2010

b0b said:
As far as I know, the LU inter-availability is not documented in the public domain.

What about this? Yes, I realise this is for a different, and specific, offer, but the reference to a "list of inter-available routes" is there
(click on" Summary")
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr50e2210a0400020111e6a4beefae08/details.html

National Rail Enquiries said:
* Amersham and Marylebone
* Finsbury Park and Kings Cross / Moorgate
* Kentish Town and Moorgate / Elephant & Castle / London Bridge
* Kenton and Euston (but not for entry/exit at Kilburn High Road or South Hampstead)
* Liverpool Street and Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale / Walthamstow Central (but not at intermediate stations)
* Richmond and Stratford (via North London Line) [*but only between Richmond and Gunnersbury and between Stratford and Canning Town for Pay-As-You-Go]
* Stratford and Liverpool Street
* Upminster and Fenchurch Street / Liverpool Street (via Barking) but not for entry/exit at Forest Gate or Maryland,
* West Brompton and Willesden Junction [*but not for Pay-As-You-Go].
* West Ruislip and South Ruislip

Obviously this is also now out of date (note the ref to the North London line to Canning Town), but broadly similar (and updated) lists of this kind have appeared in countless TfL fare publications. (The annual fares booklet always includes such a list)

I also found this online http://www.pcc.me.uk/~peter/tfl/docs/topha3.pdf
I've no idea of its status or credibility , but it appears to be some kind of offical TfL document (from 2008) listing the inter-available routes, and going into greater details about the various restrictions/permissions on each of them.

Tbh I am quite sure that the barrier staff at Liv St tube are aware of the interavailability of NR tickets between there and Stratford: most likely it was the unfamiliar (and non-Essex/East Anglian destination) thaty caused the confusion (and also the fact that at least some of the tickets to those destinations, like mine to Southend, are accepted by the barriers)

John @ home · 9 Nov 2010

dz629 said:
What do we tell the barrier person? Is there something we can print and take with us?

b0b said:
As far as I know, the LU inter-availability is not documented in the public domain.

The last public domain information I can trace on this subject is from page L5 of NFM 99. Pages L1 - L5 are attached.

My understanding is that the current version is:

Inter-available Routes National Rail tickets valid on LU/DLR services

Subject to tickets being valid between the appropriate stations or for the zones shown, National Rail singles, returns and Season Tickets are valid on LU /DLR services as shown below:

National Rail tickets which include validity between Amersham and Harrow-on-the Hill and intermediately are also valid on LU / DLR services between Amersham and Harrow-on-the-Hill and intermediately (Metropolitan Line).

National Rail tickets which include validity between Harrow-on-the-Hill and Marylebone are also valid on LU / DLR services between Harrow-on-the-Hill and Baker Street, but not at any intermediate station (Metropolitan Line).

National Rail tickets which include validity between Barking and West Ham are also valid on LU / DLR services between Barking and West Ham but not intermediately (District Line).

National Rail tickets which include validity between Barking and London Terminals are also valid on LU / DLR services between Barking and Tower Hill and intermediately only at West Ham (District Line) and also between Limehouse and Tower Gateway (DLR).

National Rail tickets which include validity between Upminster and Barking are also valid on LU / DLR services between Upminster and Barking but not intermediately (District Line).

National Rail tickets which include validity between Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington are also valid on LU / DLR services between Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington (Victoria Line).

National Rail tickets which include validity between Finsbury Park and London Terminals are also valid on LU / DLR services between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross / St Pancras Und. but intermediately at Highbury & Islington only (Victoria Line / Piccadilly Line) and also between Kings Cross / St Pancras Und. and Moorgate (via Circle, Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City and Northern Lines, but intermediately at Old Street only.

National Rail tickets which include validity between (West Hampstead Thameslink or Kentish Town) and London Thameslink Group stations (London St Pancras Intl, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, Elephant & Castle) are also valid on LU / DLR services between West Hampstead / Kentish Town and Kings Cross-St Pancras Und / Farringdon / Blackfriars / London Bridge / Elephant & Castle via any reasonable route but NOT intermediately, and also NOT where tickets are routed FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT ONLY, LDN NOT UNDERGROUND or NOT UNDERGROUND.

National Rail tickets which include validity between West Hampstead Thameslink OR Kentish Town and Barbican Und / Moorgate Und are also valid on LU / DLR services between West Hampstead / Kentish Town and Barbican / Moorgate, for tickets with an origin / destination of Barbican Und or Moorgate Und only, via any reasonable route and intermediately only at Farringdon.

National Rail tickets which include validity between Richmond and Stratford and intermediately at any North London Line station are also valid on LU / DLR services by any reasonable route combination of LU services, but not for exit at any intermediate LU station.

National Rail tickets which include validity between West Brompton and Willesden Junction (via West London Line) are also valid on LU / DLR services via District and Bakerloo Lines interchanging at Paddington.

National Rail tickets which include validity between Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park are also valid on LU / DLR services between Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park and intermediately (Bakerloo Line).

National Rail tickets which include validity between Queens Park and Zone U1 or beyond are also valid on LU / DLR services from Queens Park to Zone 1 or beyond (Bakerloo Line).

National Rail tickets which include validity between Stratford and London are also valid on LU / DLR services between Stratford and Liverpool Street (Central Line).

National Rail tickets which include validity between West Ruislip and South Ruislip are also valid on LU / DLR services between West Ruislip and South Ruislip (Central Line).

Subject to tickets being valid between the appropriate stations or for the zones shown, National Rail singles and returns only (not Season Tickets) are valid on LU /DLR services as shown below:

National Rail tickets which include validity between Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale/ Walthamstow Central and Zone U1 or beyond are also valid on LU / DLR services via the Victoria Line from Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale/ Walthamstow Central to any station in Zones 1 to 3.

yorkie · 10 Nov 2010

Sounds a useful list for anyone using an ALR (this ticket is a "National Rail ticket that includes validity..." in all the above cases (apart from the "origin / destination of Barbican Und or Moorgate Und only" one, but that's irrelevant as the validity is included elsewhere)

Also would someone with PRIV boxes be treated as having a "National Rail ticket"? If so they'd also be valid.

paul1609 · 10 Nov 2010

dz629 said:
clagmonster, I have been commuting between Gravesend and Liverpool street since last year using my Gravesend to London Terminals season ticket. I change at Stratford for National Rail trains wih no problems. I tried to use the Central Line this morning. My ticket wouldn't let me through the barriers and the guy at the barriers advised me that my ticket was not valid. I explained him the routing rules. He still wouldn't let me through. Likely, I had my oyster card with me.

I think that the LUL guy may well be right and southeastern wrong. I dont think that London Liverpool street is a valid London Terminals station from southeastern stations. In much the same way as London St Pancras is not a valid London Terminal except by HS1, Its not very clear however.

swt_passenger · 10 Nov 2010

paul1609 said:
I think that the LUL guy may well be right and southeastern wrong. I dont think that London Liverpool street is a valid London Terminals station from southeastern stations. In much the same way as London St Pancras is not a valid London Terminal except by HS1, Its not very clear however.

I'd expect whatever happens now to go pear shaped anyway once the DLR extension opens, because presumably the inclusive 'Southeastern Bus' will cease immediately afterwards.

Unless using a travelcard with appropriate zonal validities, then I can't see a ticket into London terminals being valid with an intermediate DLR 'jump' from one mainline route onto another. I suppose a walk through Westfield Stratford might be legit OTOH...

IYSWIM

dz629 · 10 Nov 2010

swt_passenger said:
I'd expect whatever happens now to go pear shaped anyway once the DLR extension opens, because presumably the inclusive 'Southeastern Bus' will cease immediately afterwards.

Unless using a travelcard with appropriate zonal validities, then I can't see a ticket into London terminals being valid with an intermediate DLR 'jump' from one mainline route onto another. I suppose a walk through Westfield Stratford might be legit OTOH...

IYSWIM

I use Stratford International on a daily basis. The station has 3 exits. One of them is meant for domestic passengers and it is nearest to the regional station. It is not open until Westfield opens. Walking to the regional through this exit shouldn't take more than 6-7 mins.

Also, see the link below about what happens once the DLR extension opens:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=381165&postcount=45
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

paul1609 said:
I think that the LUL guy may well be right and southeastern wrong. I dont think that London Liverpool street is a valid London Terminals station from southeastern stations. In much the same way as London St Pancras is not a valid London Terminal except by HS1, Its not very clear however.

To clarify, I went to the rail ticket office at Liverpool Street on Monday. They confirmed, the high speed season tickets are valid on LU. I was given page L5 of NFM 99 as proof. I used the Central Line since with no problem. So far, I didn't need to use the proof. The barrier person at Liverpool Station asked for my destionation station. I gave Stratford and that was enough.

dz629 · 25 Nov 2010

John @ home said:
The last public domain information I can trace on this subject is from page L5 of NFM 99. Pages L1 - L5 are attached.

My understanding is that the current version is:

John @ home, I was stopped coming out of underground at London Liverpool Street this morning. They would not let me through. I gave them the prinout from your attachment. Still, they would not let me through. At one point, I was threatened to be slapped me in the face

They finally decided to let me through after an hour arguing.

I went back to National Rail ticket office at the station. They had told me previously that I could use the tube. The supervisor was happy to come down with me to talk to the underground supervisor. They would not believe her. It was hilarious how the 2 supervisors argued in front of me if my ticket was valid.

The LU supervisor made calls and he was told my ticket was NOT valid. I am now told to have my ticket updated so that it would work on the tube barriers. The lady at the National Rail ticket office told me that if the ticket was bought at their office, she could have updated my ticket. Or they would issue the correct ticket when it comes to renew my ticket next month.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Latest on this; There was a change of attitude by the London Underground staff at Liverpool Street Station this morning. It looks like they have done a bit of an investigation. They now agree that the high speed season tickets to London Terminals should be valid on Central Line between Stratford And Liverpool Street stations. I have been given a copy of an internal communication to show as a proof.

The communication is about wrongly encoded tickets. It looks like our tickets are wrongly encoded. Anyone who has this issue should have their tickets reissued with the right encoding. Some staff at the Liverpool Street National Rail ticket office know what they are talking about. I will be going back there when my season ticket is due for renewal next month.

dz629 · 9 Dec 2010

Dear [Name Removed],

I dont know if you remember. I saw you on November 25th. You kindly helped me and came down with me to see the London Underground staff and explain them why my Gravesend to London Terminals season ticket was valid between Stratford and Liverpool Street on the LU. I was carrying the attached document. We also discussed that my season ticket was due for renewal in December and you could issue me a new ticket and it would work on the Underground barriers with the correct encoding.

I am wondering if you remember the conversation? My ticket is due for renewal before December 13th. Could you please advice?

Kind Regards

This is the reply:

Dear Sir,

I do remember the discussion we had and called our head office and was told that underground have changed the restrictions on high speed tickets and they are not valid any more the page we had given you was from last year,s fares manual, however you can always get our train from Stratford and the price of the ticket is £ 3340.00.
If you would like to use the underground you will have to buy the travel card which is £3940.00 and is valid to all zones,I tried to issue the ticket to see if some how we can include underground but where we have to put route there is high speed written in the box and we can not change that.

I am sorry you were miss informed but if I can be of any assistant please let me know.

Kind Regards.

yorkie · 9 Dec 2010

This doesn't seem right to me.

If the ticket is valid into Liverpool St, surely it has to be valid on LU too?

Are they saying it is valid into Liverpool St but not on LU? If so, then are they denying that dual availability between LU & NR exists?

dz629 · 10 Dec 2010

Dear Mr [Name Removed],

Thank you for your telephone comments, which we received on 22 November 2010.

Ticket routeing

Further to your enquiry, I can confirm that tickets from Gravesend to London Terminals plus High Speed are not valid on Underground services to Liverpool Street. The validity of the ticket starts at Gravesend and ends upon reaching the London Terminal station applicable to your journey (in your case Stratford - although you could also travel to St Pancras with the ticket if you need to).

To travel on the Underground, passengers must purchase Travelcard tickets. This ensures that Transport for London receive payment for any Underground journeys made by our passengers (no payment is made to them when a passenger buys a London Terminals ticket).

I should also confirm that there is no section L5 in the National Roueting Manual. Further to this, whilst there is an easement whereby passengers travelling beyond London to parts of Essex can travel on the Highspeed services via Stratford instead of travelling via Liverpool Street (the traditional route journey), there is not easement permitting the use of Underground services with rail tickets.

I trust this clarifies the position and thank you for your enquiry.

Yours sincerely

[Name Removed]
Customer Relations Officer
Southeasterm

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I just saw Supervisors from National Rail ticket office and London Underground at Liverpool Street. National Rail supervisor advised me my ticket was valid between Stratford and Liverpool Street on the LU! They can't issue a ticket that would work on the barriers. I should carry the page L5 from NFM99 with me when I use the Tube. The London Underground supervisor was happy with this arrangement for today! argh!!

swt_passenger · 10 Dec 2010

I think the Southeastern response has made at least two significant mistakes.

Firstly, he's wrongly calling Stratford a London Terminal, and therefore inferring your ticket isn't valid beyond there on the underground.

Secondly he's responding to your 'NFM 99 extract' by saying it isn't in the Routeing Guide, and that there are no relevant easements. AIUI, dual availabiluty on LU is nothing to do with the routeing guide at all, he needs to look in 'the manual'.

Clearly there must be a mechanism for revenue sharing on these joint lines, or there wouldn't be any LU/TOC joint arrangements at all.

Southeastern don't have any dual availability NR/LU routes, so they are probably completely confused about the real issue here.

yorkie · 10 Dec 2010

Mr "X" is talking nonsense and clearly does NOT understand the issues at stake. Given that he does not understand what he is talking about, anything he says, should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I suggest a politely worded reply asking for the opinion of someone who is knowledgeable!

This guy gets such basic stuff wrong, you need to talk to someone higher up the chain.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I will now pick to pieces this reply from Mr name unknown!

dz629 said:
I can confirm that tickets from Gravesend to London Terminals plus High Speed are not valid on Underground services to Liverpool Street.

Confirm? On what basis? This is opinion being stated as fact without supporting evidence!

dz629 said:
The validity of the ticket starts at Gravesend and ends upon reaching the London Terminal station applicable to your journey (in your case Stratford - although you could also travel to St Pancras with the ticket if you need to).

Gibberish. The validity ends at Stratford? Stratford is a London Terminal? Absolute gibber!

dz629 said:
To travel on the Underground, passengers must purchase Travelcard tickets.

OK, this guy hasn't a clue about Dual Route Availability!

dz629 said:
This ensures that Transport for London receive payment for any Underground journeys made by our passengers (no payment is made to them when a passenger buys a London Terminals ticket).

The payment arrangements are of no interest or concern to the 'average' passenger. They may interest us, but this quote holds no value as it ignores the existence of dual route availability, so it should be ignored. If I wanted a lesson on LU & NR payments, I wouldn't take it from this guy!

dz629 said:
I should also confirm that there is no section L5 in the National Roueting Manual.

The what?!

dz629 said:
Further to this, whilst there is an easement whereby passengers travelling beyond London to parts of Essex can travel on the Highspeed services via Stratford instead of travelling via Liverpool Street (the traditional route journey),

Is there? I don't think so. He appears to be confused with higher priced tickets issued specifically from STP routed HS1. That is not an easement by any stretch of the imagination!

dz629 said:
there is not easement permitting the use of Underground services with rail tickets.

<Panto mode> Oh, yes there is!</Panto mode>

dz629 said:
I trust this clarifies the position

It clarifies one thing, that this person wouldn't cut it on here as a fares advisor. :lol:

Talking gibberish may be good enough for SET, but it doesn't cut the mustard here.

dz629 · 13 Dec 2010

My Email:

Dear [Name removed],

Thanks for the quick email with the Underground customer services number. As discussed, I have attached the sheet given to me by staff at National Express ticket office at Liverpool Street station. Also, you can find peoples discussions about the matter in this link: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38131

Kind Regards

Their Reply:

Dear [Name removed],

Thank you for sending the page from the Fares Manual.

I have spoken to our policy staff and they think that with current arrangements for inter-availability of tickets, valid journeys can be made between Stratford and Liverpool Street without buying another ticket. At the moment this involves a bus journey between Stratford International and Stratford Regional station (next year by DLR when the link is completed), then by tube from Stratford Regional to Liverpool Street.

If you cant get some clarity on this issue from the Underground, let us know and we shall make some enquiries on your behalf.

Kind regards,

[Name Removed]
London Travel Watch

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