Change of Route Excess

transportphoto · 13 Jan 2011

Hi All,

I am doing some planning; I am just wondering what the procedures / charges are for a change of route excess for a return ticket.

For example a route not London is £35.85 - via London is £42.75.
(£3.45? Difference /2?)

This would be for the return portion only.

Thanks for anyhelp.

RailUK Forums

Mojo · 13 Jan 2011

Yes, on Change of Route it's half the difference.

transportphoto · 13 Jan 2011

Thanks Mojo

yorkie · 13 Jan 2011

This is one of the few scenarios where you can legitimately request an excess at the same time as purchasing the original ticket, indeed you should be offered it!

National Routeing Guide said:
Where two or more permitted routes are available for a specific journey,
customers may wish to travel out by one route and return by another. If a
higher fare applies for the return leg of the journey the customer should be
issued with a ticket for the more direct route and an excess fare issued to
cover the difference in fare for the return routeing. This option should be
made available to customers who wish to pre-book a dual routed ticket prior
to travel.

Some ticket machines are incorrectly set up to charge the difference for both portions when you only want one, this is wrong.

If the ticket office won't do it, just get the cheaper ticket and excess on the train.

transportphoto · 13 Jan 2011

Thanks yorkie - I am planning a weird and wacky way home from the NWM Challenge. I will post another thread tomorrow when I have the finished my proposed route home to check that my interpretation of the RG is correct

RJ · 14 Jan 2011

Overdistance excessess in one direction are also charged at half the difference. Care should be taken with tickets via Kensington Olympia however because I've known Any Permitted tickets to be cheaper. For example Anytime Croydon area stations to Hemel Hempstead/Berkhampsted cost less routed +Any Permitted than via Kensington Olympia.

LMRPI · 14 Jan 2011

RJ said:
Overdistance excessess in one direction are also charged at half the difference. Care should be taken with tickets via Kensington Olympia however because I've known Any Permitted tickets to be cheaper. For example Anytime Croydon area stations to Hemel Hempstead/Berkhampsted cost less routed +Any Permitted than via Kensington Olympia.

Thatis no longer true. The rules changed in September last year.

The Manual
Simplifier........................ Over-riding travel to a destination beyond that on the ticket

Ticket Types....................... No opportunity to buy ticket before boarding

Railcard discounts...... ...........Yes provided the original ticket is discounted

Single Tickets
Anytime / Anytime Day...............Charge the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Single fare for the throughout journey. If cheaper, charge the appropriate Single fare for the extra journey,
Off-Peak / Off-Peak Day.............but must comply with NCoC 19
Super Off-Peak / Super Off-Peak Day

Advance.............................Charge the appropriate Single fare for the extra journey.

Return Tickets
a) Travel in one direction
Anytime / Anytime Day..........Charge the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Return fare for the throughout journey. If cheaper, charge the appropriate Single fare for the extra journey,
Off-Peak / Off-Peak Day........but must comply with NCoC 19
Super Off-Peak / Super Off-Peak Day

b) Travel in both directions
Anytime / Anytime Day ..............Charge the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Return fare for the throughout journey. If cheaper, charge the appropriate Return fare for the extra journey,
Off-Peak / Off-Peak Day...........but must comply with NCoC 19
Super Off-Peak / Super Off-Peak Day

Season Tickets
7 Day, 1 Month or over.............. Charge the appropriate Single or Return fare for the journey not covered on ticket.

Notes:
Reference to ‘appropriate fare ’means the cheapest Single or Return ticket available for immediate travel on chosen service.

barrykas · 14 Jan 2011

LMRPI said:
Thatis no longer true. The rules changed in September last year.

Nice of anyone to brief that out to those of us selling the things! Pretty sure our TIS still calculates it at half the difference too. I'll have to check later.

And I've just noticed another addition to the Excess procedures, covering "terminating short" where a BoJ is not permitted and the fare to the new destination is more than the fare paid.

Cheers,

Barry

island · 14 Jan 2011

barrykas said:
And I've just noticed another addition to the Excess procedures, covering "terminating short" where a BoJ is not permitted and the fare to the new destination is more than the fare paid.

You'll use that all of three times a decade, I expect

Solent&Wessex · 14 Jan 2011

barrykas said:
Nice of anyone to brief that out to those of us selling the things! Pretty sure our TIS still calculates it at half the difference too. I'll have to check later

.

Yes, nice of them to tell us.

And Avantix Mobile, which is probably where lots of these would be done anyway, still charges half the difference when doing this type of excess. I know, because I did one the other day!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have also just noticed that the rule for excessing up to First Class have changed - and look very complicated indeed, especially when on board. They also look expensive!

RJ · 15 Jan 2011

kwvr45 said:
.

Yes, nice of them to tell us.

And Avantix Mobile, which is probably where lots of these would be done anyway, still charges half the difference when doing this type of excess. I know, because I did one the other day!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have also just noticed that the rule for excessing up to First Class have changed - and look very complicated indeed, especially when on board. They also look expensive!

It is quite a fiddly procedure, not very popular with passengers either even if explained correctly. By the time you've calculated all the excesses, it's often come to more than what the standalone FD/FO fare is.

barrykas · 15 Jan 2011

kwvr45 said:
.
Yes, nice of them to tell us.

And Avantix Mobile, which is probably where lots of these would be done anyway, still charges half the difference when doing this type of excess. I know, because I did one the other day!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have also just noticed that the rule for excessing up to First Class have changed - and look very complicated indeed, especially when on board. They also look expensive!

Re: O/distance excesses - FasTIS still uses the HALF the difference rule too.

As for First Class, the new rules are actually fairer to the passenger, as they only end up paying the same as they would have paid had they bought the "correct" tickets in the first place.

Under the old rules, you effectively upgrade the ticket to an Anytime or Anytime Day Return, then charge the difference between the First and Standard Singles.

Under the new rules, you charge the difference between the fare paid and the sum of the appropriate singles for the journey.

To keep things fairly simple, let's say you have the following set of fares:

SVS: £24.50, SVR: £25.00
SOS: £30.00, SOR: £60.00
FSS: £37.50, FSR: £75.00
FOS: £45.00, FOR: £90.00

Under the old rules, upgrading from the SVR would involve the following:

Excess SVR -> SOR: £60.00 - £25.00 = £35.00
FOS - SOS: £45.00 - £30.00 = £15.00
Excess: £35.00 + £15.00 = £50.00

As this is more than the FOS, you'd sell that.

Under the new rules, if travelling when a First Off-Peak is valid:

SVS + FSS = £24.50 + £37.50 = £62.00
Less the fare paid: £62.00 - £25.00 = £37.00

As this is (just) less than the FSS, you'd charge the excess.

Travelling when a First Off-Peak isn't valid:

SVS + FOS: £24.50 + £45.00 = £69.50
Less the fare paid: £69.50 - £25.00 = £44.50

Again, this is (just) less than the FOS, so you'd charge the excess.

Cheers,

Barry

Solent&Wessex · 15 Jan 2011

barrykas said:
Re: O/distance excesses - FasTIS still uses the HALF the difference rule too.

As for First Class, the new rules are actually fairer to the passenger, as they only end up paying the same as they would have paid had they bought the "correct" tickets in the first place.

Under the old rules, you effectively upgrade the ticket to an Anytime or Anytime Day Return, then charge the difference between the First and Standard Singles.

Under the new rules, you charge the difference between the fare paid and the sum of the appropriate singles for the journey.

To keep things fairly simple, let's say you have the following set of fares:

SVS: £24.50, SVR: £25.00
SOS: £30.00, SOR: £60.00
FSS: £37.50, FSR: £75.00
FOS: £45.00, FOR: £90.00

Under the old rules, upgrading from the SVR would involve the following:

Excess SVR -> SOR: £60.00 - £25.00 = £35.00
FOS - SOS: £45.00 - £30.00 = £15.00
Excess: £35.00 + £15.00 = £50.00

As this is more than the FOS, you'd sell that.

Under the new rules, if travelling when a First Off-Peak is valid:

SVS + FSS = £24.50 + £37.50 = £62.00
Less the fare paid: £62.00 - £25.00 = £37.00

As this is (just) less than the FSS, you'd charge the excess.

Travelling when a First Off-Peak isn't valid:

SVS + FOS: £24.50 + £45.00 = £69.50
Less the fare paid: £69.50 - £25.00 = £44.50

Again, this is (just) less than the FOS, so you'd charge the excess.

Cheers,

Barry

No, it is still unfair on the passenger. And besides, it is physically not possible to do that sort of excess on Avantix Mobile. On Avantix you can only excess from one fare, and you cannot input manual fares. So, in your examples above I would need to add two fares together and then subtract what has been paid. This cannot be done.

The fairest way is to carry on doing what I have always been taught - which is the way Avantix Mobile calculates it. That is it is half the difference between the two fares in each direction.

Using your example fares above, if someone has a SVR and wants to upgrade to First Class for one direction it would the difference between the SVR and the FOR divided by 2. That is £90.00 - £25.00 = £65.00 / 2 = £32.50 in each direction. Thus, if the passenger decided to excess to First Class in both directions individually then the sum of the fares paid is equal to that of the FOR. Using the 'old' fares manual method folk would end up paying less than someone who had paid First Class before the journey, under the 'new' method they could end up paying more.

OwlMan · 15 Jan 2011

Another farce. They change the rules, but do not change the software for the equipment that processes excesses. :lol:

:-x
ATOC are a waste of space.

Peter

Failed Unit · 15 Jan 2011

I must admit I will need to look at the first class excess. I sometimes use it to avoid standing when a train is short formed. It used to be complex on a season but only one gaurd said it should be done at the station. The problem with that is you don't know a train will be short formed until it turns up so going to the ticket office will mean you miss it. Honesty also gets me as I go to the end the gaurd is at - 9/10 times when a train is short formed the staff can't get to the other end because of overcrowding. (on scotrail 170s)

transportphoto · 15 Jan 2011

Is it possible for anyone with access to 'the manual' please PM me the section on Excesses. From all aspects Over Dis, Upgrade Class, Route etc... ??

TIA

Trainbuff · 15 Jan 2011

I also work as a Guard. Again we have not been told of these changes. As far as I am concerned I will sell the cheapest I can with excesses. If the Avantix has not been changedthen I can only assume that ATOC and TOC's cant be that concerned with the additional revenue.

Maybe the additional revenue does not warrant the cost of a software upgrade? In which case, why bother to change it? And also if Guards and ticket offices have not been made aware, then one can deduce that the TOC's are not that bothered either!

I too will carry on selling the half price for one direction on my Avantix, unless I receive instructions to the contrary. If I ever do I will post it on here....but dont hold your breath! LOL.

barrykas · 15 Jan 2011

kwvr45 said:
No, it is still unfair on the passenger. And besides, it is physically not possible to do that sort of excess on Avantix Mobile. On Avantix you can only excess from one fare, and you cannot input manual fares. So, in your examples above I would need to add two fares together and then subtract what has been paid. This cannot be done.

It's not physically possible to do it on most Ticket Issuing Systems without doing some dodgy maths to force it to give the "correct" answer, as they're generally programmed to treat all excesses other than change of ticket type the same way. (i.e. full difference for both legs, half the difference for one leg).

Using your example fares above, if someone has a SVR and wants to upgrade to First Class for one direction it would the difference between the SVR and the FOR divided by 2. That is £90.00 - £25.00 = £65.00 / 2 = £32.50 in each direction. Thus, if the passenger decided to excess to First Class in both directions individually then the sum of the fares paid is equal to that of the FOR. Using the 'old' fares manual method folk would end up paying less than someone who had paid First Class before the journey, under the 'new' method they could end up paying more.

Oops...Failed to spot one crucial thing in the new rules. The possibility to excess to the appropriate Return if that's cheaper.

Going back to my (made up) example fares:

Our punter has his £25.00 Off-Peak Return and decides he wants to upgrade to First on the outward leg when, obviously, the First Off-Peak is available.

We're still, at this point, assuming he's returning at a time when his Off-Peak's valid.

FSS + SVS = £37.50 + £24.50 = £62.00
Less the £25.00 he's already paid: £37.00 Excess

If he now decides to upgrade on his return leg, at a time when his Off-Peak's valid, it'd simply be the difference between the £62.00 he's already paid and the £75.00 First Off-Peak Return, i.e. £13.00.

If he was returning at a time when Off-Peak tickets aren't valid, there are two schools of thought:

The first goes that you charge the excess between the £62.00 he's already paid and the £90.00 First Anytime Return, i.e. £28.00.

The other, which is probably what I'd do, is to charge the difference between the £62.00 already paid and the sum of the £37.50 First Off-Peak Single (for the outward leg) and the £45.00 First Anytime Single (for the return), giving an excess of £20.50.

In practice, most people don't bother to check excesses for "correctness" as long as they look about right. Remember rule 1: Anyone checking the excess should be able to work out what you've done.

Cheers,

Barry

bnm · 21 Jan 2011

It is strange that ATOC have changed the rules on over distance excesses and not bothered to see them implemented on TIS and Avantix.

There are obvious revenue protection reasons for doing so and I wonder if ATOC had been made aware of fare avoidance by canny folks exploiting the HALF the difference excess to get a much cheaper fare for a particular single journey compared to the advertised through fare?

An example would be if you wanted to make a Single journey to Penzance from the Bristol area, say, Stapleton Road - Bristol Temple Meads excessed to Penzance on the outward only:

The SDR Stapleton Road to Bristol TM is £2.00. The SOR to Penzance from Stapleton Road is £75.50, the excess under the old rule would be (£75.50 - £2.00) / 2; giving an excess of £36.75, making the total fare £38.75 for an Anytime Single to Penzance. Quite a saving on the 'correct' fare of £74.00 SOS.

This loophole could've been exploited on many journeys where the cost of a through single was more than 50% of the through return. So I understand why ATOC have attempted to close it. Should really do more than just change the entry in 'The Manual' though!

Flamingo · 21 Jan 2011

New to me as well. I'm afraid I'll just keep using the Avantix to work it out until told otherwise by - the Avantix, I suppose.

I'll usually work out the excess, then look up the new ticket & work out which is cheaper (then charge the more expensive one

! - Joke!

)

MichaelAMW · 21 Jan 2011

Not sure I have followed all this... so apologies if this has been answered.

Just want to check: are the various people who've replied in this thread saying that under the *old* rules the excess on the train from a std off-peak return to 1st, assuming you're still travelling off-peak, is *not*simply the difference between the two fares, i.e the std and 1st off-peak returns, (assume both legs upgrade, to make it easier) but an excess to the 1st anytime return? And, if so, why?

The C of C say that you have to pay "the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket for the accommodation you have used", which is obviously a bit vague but doesn't suggest you should be stung for the full fare.

I guess the underlying question is to ask why it's different from most other excesses. In general, e.g. travelling via a different route or in the 'rush hour' with an off-peak ticket, you just pay the difference between the cheapest walk-on fares - hope I've got that right - and that's the same as if you booked it before travelling. Here, however, the on-train excess was more.

bnm · 21 Jan 2011

Excess Fares Procedure Sept 2010 until further notice:

clagmonster · 22 Feb 2011

Thanks for posting that, Big Nose Mac.

I have a question about the new travelling short catorgory. Where, do the ticket terms and conditions and/or the Condtions of carriage allow an administration fee to be charged in addition to the excess when you end you journey short with an advance ticket? Obviously, if you break and resume your journey, you would almost always be travelling on a train on which you are not booked, so the administration fee is appropriate, but in the case of ending short you could very easily be on your booked train (and if not, almost certainly liable for a new ticket). The conditions of carriage say:
"If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station
when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess
fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of
the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to
start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have
used."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
The ticket conditions merely state that break of journey and ending short is not permitted with advance tickets.

reb0118 · 22 Feb 2011

Flamingo said:
New to me as well. I'm afraid I'll just keep using the Avantix to work it out until told otherwise by - the Avantix, I suppose.

I'll usually work out the excess, then look up the new ticket & work out which is cheaper (then charge the more expensive one ! - Joke! )

Check the fare for the new ticket first as this should be quicker to do than the excess. Then check the excess and if cheaper issue that straight from your screen. If not go back to the fare - it might still be in your memory.

This saves you having to work out the excess twice - that is the time consuming part.

Hope I've explained things ok.

Flamingo · 22 Feb 2011

bnm said:
Excess Fares Procedure Sept 2010 until further notice:

Thanks, interesting. I notice I've been letting people away with it when deviating from route, I've been excessing them up for an "over distance" but I should have been doing them a new ticket from the point where they deviated.

A customer with a London to Chippenham ticket decides to travel instead to Cheltenham. The customer diverges from the ticket line of route at Swindon. The original ticket is only valid for part of the new journey and therefore a Swindon-Cheltenham ticket is required.

premier01 · 23 Feb 2011

reb0118 said:
Check the fare for the new ticket first as this should be quicker to do than the excess. Then check the excess and if cheaper issue that straight from your screen. If not go back to the fare - it might still be in your memory.

This saves you having to work out the excess twice - that is the time consuming part.

Hope I've explained things ok.

It would be easier if all systems were configured to calculate excess fares correctly without on board train managers and also sales staff at stations having to spend a long time working through the complex processes-this would ensure transparency for both customers and TOC's.

It wouldn't be too hard to implement this on all systems.

Also think the new system is more complicated than ever and customers get worse deal.

Another point-why is the manual-or at least the sections about excess fare calculations-so secret-customers should have access to the policy in the same way that mobile phone companies have to publish their tariffs and costs to the public-another example of 1 rule for private sector and another for railway.

yorkie · 23 Feb 2011

At the risk of repeating what I've said several times before, ATOC are constantly changing things and constantly making 'mistakes', there is often no way to know what is intended, and what the mistake is, or whether they are correcting a previous mistake. I would take the 'new guidelines' with a pinch of salt and do what the machines correctly calculate. If they really did change the rules with proper consultation they'd announce it and arrange for systems to be changed.

It's like York-Donny is no longer valid via Leeds in the Routeing Guide, yet all staff accept it via Leeds, it has historically always been valid via Leeds and late at night you are advised to go via Leeds. That's clearly a mistake by ATOC. They didn't consult and that is a breach of the agreement made at privatisation. So someone could say "well these are the new rules" and deny someone going via Leeds on a Donny-York ticket, but the Railway would be in breach of the law if they did enforce it. So, I take ATOCs constant meddling and chopping and changing with a pinch of salt. This is an organisation who gave me two completely different answers to a question I asked, and it was managers giving me different answers, not just any old person.

RJ · 23 Feb 2011

premier01 said:
It would be easier if all systems were configured to calculate excess fares correctly without on board train managers and also sales staff at stations having to spend a long time working through the complex processes-this would ensure transparency for both customers and TOC's.

It wouldn't be too hard to implement this on all systems.

Also think the new system is more complicated than ever and customers get worse deal.

Another point-why is the manual-or at least the sections about excess fare calculations-so secret-customers should have access to the policy in the same way that mobile phone companies have to publish their tariffs and costs to the public-another example of 1 rule for private sector and another for railway.

Personally I enjoy being asked to deal with complex enquiries - makes a change to the usual requests like a single to Gatwick or one day Travelcard. Doing the job consists of two fundamental elements - knowing what to do and knowing where to look to find out what you need to do.

I've used the National Rail website before to get the method of calculating First Class upgrades. It's actually very good and tells everyone what they need to know. As for excesses, do they warrant explicit advertisement? They are covered in the CoC, which outlines what happens with regards to changing if you find your ticket is no longer suitable for your needs. I do a lot of excesses on a daily basis, the average person just asks for an "upgrade," "extension" or to "pay the difference."

premier01 · 24 Feb 2011

RJ said:
Personally I enjoy being asked to deal with complex enquiries - makes a change to the usual requests like a single to Gatwick or one day Travelcard. Doing the job consists of two fundamental elements - knowing what to do and knowing where to look to find out what you need to do.

I've used the National Rail website before to get the method of calculating First Class upgrades. It's actually very good and tells everyone what they need to know. As for excesses, do they warrant explicit advertisement? They are covered in the CoC, which outlines what happens with regards to changing if you find your ticket is no longer suitable for your needs. I do a lot of excesses on a daily basis, the average person just asks for an "upgrade," "extension" or to "pay the difference."

I would suggest because that doesn't articulate the process just the basics in the way that the website you refer to does -if ATOC didn't make the rules so complex and inconsistent for each situation then agree there would be no requirement for that.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

yorkie said:
At the risk of repeating what I've said several times before, ATOC are constantly changing things and constantly making 'mistakes', there is often no way to know what is intended, and what the mistake is, or whether they are correcting a previous mistake. I would take the 'new guidelines' with a pinch of salt and do what the machines correctly calculate. If they really did change the rules with proper consultation they'd announce it and arrange for systems to be changed.

It's like York-Donny is no longer valid via Leeds in the Routeing Guide, yet all staff accept it via Leeds, it has historically always been valid via Leeds and late at night you are advised to go via Leeds. That's clearly a mistake by ATOC. They didn't consult and that is a breach of the agreement made at privatisation. So someone could say "well these are the new rules" and deny someone going via Leeds on a Donny-York ticket, but the Railway would be in breach of the law if they did enforce it. So, I take ATOCs constant meddling and chopping and changing with a pinch of salt. This is an organisation who gave me two completely different answers to a question I asked, and it was managers giving me different answers, not just any old person.

So is the calculations in the manual unenforceable by law then-would be good for legal expert input here but would suggest it is if it's not published.

I still think that systems need to be configured based on the correct processes and only reason I can think of is that would mean lost revenue from ripping all but most customers in the UK.

yorkie · 24 Feb 2011

premier01 said:
So is the calculations in the manual unenforceable by law then-would be good for legal expert input here but would suggest it is if it's not published.

You can't just ask a legal expert, what I am saying is you would need a legal expert who is familiar with the agreements made when the railways were privatised, to establish exactly what those agreements are, and what can be altered. I'm not saying that any particular excess is enforceable by law.

I am not a legal expert but I suspect that if someone travelled York to Donny via Leeds, and was charged extra on the basis it was not a permitted route, but they then established that it should be a permitted route and ATOC did not consult to cease it being permitted, then they may well have a case against ATOC. However what matters is that won't happen as guards won't even be aware it's not permitted, it looks reasonable and they will just accept it. Passengers are told to go that way late at night anyway. Historically it's been valid for as long as anyone can remember. Did ATOC intend to remove it? I don't think so. Probably just an oversight.

But all we're doing now is going round in circles and it's all very hypothetical.

Change of Route Excess

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Forum Staff

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Established Member

New Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Attachments

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Member

Forum Staff