Peak and off peak journey anomalies

My girlfriend wants to travel from Shipley to York tomorrow morning, returning on Wednesday afternoon. I was just having a look to see what her options were.

Initially, she needed to depart from Shipley around 07:30-08:30 (although she can now depart after 10:00), so I looked at what tickets were available.

Obviously, an anytime return would be appropriate. However, I looked on NRE for the ticket restriction to the off peak return:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_3Y.pdf

The outward restriction makes sense; she is allowed on any train that arrives in York after 09:30. However, for the return journey, she can take any train at all, Even during the busy, what I would call "peak", morning hours!

I guess it could make sense - maybe there aren't many commuters from York to Shipley (although I assume the York - Leeds leg would be packed, but that's beside the point) so they class it as an off peak journey. Whatever reason, it could make sense.

However, after intrigue got the better of me, I did a little investigating. I found that if instead I searched for a single journey York - Shipley (the return leg of her journey) at the exact same time (early morning this Wednesday) then off peak day tickets for that journey aren't valid until after 09:30.

So let me get this right. The EXACT same York - Shipley journey before 09:30 is an off-peak journey if bought as the return leg of an off peak return ticket (an hence will be cheaper), but it is a peak journey if bought as a single ticket (will require a more expensive anytime ticket to be purchased)

Similarly, if you purchase a York - Shipley off peak return departing on Wednesday morning, then all York - Shipley trains before 09:30 are miraculously change to being eligible for the outward leg of the off peak return.

Now, I've been looking a lot into train fares / anomalies / splitting etc. recently, so I'm quite well informed (obviously not as much as some of you guys). However, how on earth is someone who takes a train once a year supposed to understand any of this?
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Oh, and if the situation wasn't confusing enough:

If I choose an off peak York - Shipley return, departing on Wednesday (returning Thursday say) then the outward leg has an extra restriction:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_8A.pdf


So, choosing the 07:44 York to Shipley service this Wednesday morning as an example, the exact same journey could have one of the following restrictions:

1. Off-peak, break of journey allowed (if purchased as the return leg of a Shipley - York Off peak return)

2. Peak, break of journey allowed (if purchased as a single day ticket)

3. Off-peak, break of journey not allowed (if purchased as the outward leg of a York - Shipley Off-Peak return)


Utter madness.

One thing you are getting confused about is that restrictions differ from ticket to ticket - there isn't such thing as a peak/off-peak train.

I realise that is the case. Especially when dealing with more than one TOC that serves a route, or the different possible routes you can take from A to B. However, what really gets me in my example in the initial post, is that the restrictions aren't to do with different TOCs / routes - I would assume all three scenario tickets I listed above are all determined by Northern Rail. I just can't fathom why they would impose seemingly random restrictions on very similar tickets. It just seems like they are being confusing for the sake of it.

Actually just having had a look at avantix all the tickets between Shipley and York are priced by TPE.

Shipley - York tickets are actually priced by TPE, even though you could do the whole journey on a combination of Northern trains. I agree it is confusing to passengers, but that is the way it is.

That does seem a little strange considering they don't serve Shipley, but I believe they price the York to Leeds leg so I guess it isn't that strange.

However, regardless of the TOC that actually prices it (Northern/TPE whoever), from what you said it is still the same TOC that prices and sets the restrictions for each ticket, therefore my point still stands!

I do see your point, but for the vast majority of return tickets you'll see the exact same situation, where the outward journey is restricted and the return journey isn't.

phil35 said:

Initially, she needed to depart from Shipley around 07:30-08:30 (although she can now depart after 10:00), so I looked at what tickets were available..

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If she is going to be doing another journey (or more!) within a month, then when she returns from York she needs to purchase another return, starting at York, and use the outward for that journey. The return that she gets tomorrow should be put in a safe place at home and will not be used until the very last journey. Then the next time she goes from Shipley, use the return portion of the York-Shipley ticket, that is valid at any time. Keep repeating this until the last journey within a calendar month when she finally returns on the return portion of the first ticket she bought. This is totally legit/valid.

Yes it is utter madness and is totally bonkers, and exists on several other routes too.

For example London to Stevenage/Peterborough:

FCC restrict the RETURN portions of Off Peak Day tickets that they price out of London.

FCC restricts BOTH the OUTWARD and RETURN portions of Off Peak tickets that they price out of London (but the restriction is far more lenient than on EC!)

EC restricts the OUTWARD portions of Off Peak Day tickets that they price out of London.

EC restricts BOTH the OUTWARD and RETURN portions of Off Peak Day tickets that they price out of London.

GC restricts BOTH the OUTWARD and RETURN portions of Off Peak tickets that they price out of London.

So, the outward portion of an Off Peak Day ticket is valid to Stevenage, but not to Peterborough, and the return portion of an Off Peak ticket is valid to Peterborough but the outward portion isn't.

On the 1714 FCC service, the following is / isn't valid:
Destination / Ticket type / Valid or not
Stevenage Off Peak Day OUT Valid
Stevenage Off Peak Day RTN Not Valid
Peterborough Off Peak Day OUT Valid (if routed FCC only)
Peterborough Off Peak Day OUT Not Valid (if routed Any Permitted)
Peterborough Off Peak Day RTN Not Valid (either route)
Peterborough Off Peak OUT Valid (if routed FCC only)
Peterborough Off Peak OUT Not Valid (if routed Any Permitted)
Peterborough Off Peak RTN Valid (either route)

According to ATOC, the name "Off Peak" describes "when you can travel" so that you can buy "with confidence" and you know "exactly where you stand". The fares above, all Off Peak fares, are valid on trains that are "less busy", and where there there is more than one off peak fare for the journey, "the cheaper fare with more restrictions will be named Super Off-Peak".

Now, either ATOC are lying or the conditions are un-enforceable.

Note that for certain trains there are screens that make a sweeping statement such as "Off Peak return portions are valid" or something like that, if anyone wishes to use an Off Peak ticket that is technically barred (due to a hidden restriction in Avantix) but a notice says is valid, please do get in touch!

There is the brilliant anomaly of the 1900 from King's Cross, which - wait for it - allows SUPER off peak tickets, which ATOC says is the "the cheaper fare with more restrictions" but dues NOT allow the Off Peak Day tickets, despite the screens saying that tickets called Off Peak are valid!

There are, according to ATOC, only 3 categories of ticket, all the tickets above are in the same category, Off Peak, and the name Off Peak describes when you can travel!

1.You shouldn't be able to use the 0744 York - Shipley if you have a SVR from Shipley - York as you can't arrive in York till 0930

2. SDS valid in both directions

3. A York - Shipley SVR is valid on the 0744.

Thats the way I see it.

t0ffeeman said:

1.You shouldn't be able to use the 0744 York - Shipley if you have a SVR from Shipley - York as you can't arrive in York till 0930

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Not if returning on a different day. The return portion is valid on any train. As the person the OP is advising is doing the OUT tomorrow and the RTN on Weds then this is allowed.

I realised that the ticketing system was confusing. But I didn't realise it was actually this confusing. That's insane. So how on earth, given Yorkie's example, does anyone expect train guards / barrier staff to inspect a ticket an know whether it is valid or not just by looking at it and not spend 20 minutes frantically searching Avantix? And if the staff don't know, then how are the unsuspecting public supposed to know? This really had opened my eyes to how bad the ticketing system on our rail network really is.

t0ffeeman - point 1 of your post doesn't make any sense. I think you may be confused by the system, which is hardly surprising as it adheres to ATOC's definition of "simple" (which means it isn't as they are liars!)

phil35 said:

That does seem a little strange considering they don't serve Shipley, but I believe they price the York to Leeds leg so I guess it isn't that strange.

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TPE price the main flow though, which is York to Leeds. Shipley is just an extension of that.

There are many tickets where neither the origin or destination are served by the TOC in question, e.g. Shipley to Poppleton, but the chances are you'll be on TPE between Leeds & York.

So this isn't the slightest bit strange, but there are many routes that you could say are strange. Let's just say that at privatisation they decided to be heavily biased toward TOCs that serve London, and therefore many flows that could have been given to XC, were not. This is absolutely brilliant for customers as it keeps fares at affordable levels and ensures that splitting remains good value. If XC took priority, I would have to abandon rail as a viable mode for cross country journeys. Sadly XC threw a wobbler and put together a case to get flows off Chiltern. I was worried that they may continue this elsewhere in the country, but thank goodness they have not. I am assured that TOCs have to put a case together and there is a cost to the TOC in doing this, so hopefully they won't be trying to price yet more people off rail and drive people into their cars on other routes.

The system is a total mess, but once you understand it, substantial savings can be made.

If the system was truly simplified you can be sure fares would rise and we would suffer. The lower fares would increase to match the higher ones. This government wants passengers to pay an increasing percentage of the cost of rail journeys. So I do not wish for any simplification whatsoever, at least not on the terms that would be offered with this government. (Note that the government position was determined by Labour and the current government have not changed that position).

t0ffeeman said:

1.You shouldn't be able to use the 0744 York - Shipley if you have a SVR from Shipley - York as you can't arrive in York till 0930

2. SDS valid in both directions

3. A York - Shipley SVR is valid on the 0744.

Thats the way I see it.

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There isn't an 0744 from York to Shipley, its the XC service from Newcastle to Plymouth and the Northern service from Leeds to Morecambe! Just to confuse.

Yorkie's answer reminds me of something I did c1988 during Mad March to encourage use of a YP railcard. All SVR fares were in 3 price bands. 0-20, 21-30 and over 30ish. The fares were £5,£10 or £15.

phil35 said:

I realised that the ticketing system was confusing. But I didn't realise it was actually this confusing. That's insane. So how on earth, given Yorkie's example, does anyone expect train guards / barrier staff to inspect a ticket an know whether it is valid or not just by looking at it and not spend 20 minutes frantically searching Avantix? And if the staff don't know, then how are the unsuspecting public supposed to know? This really had opened my eyes to how bad the ticketing system on our rail network really is.

Click to expand...

The honest truth is that, apart from a few very good guards, most guards only know the basics, don't have time to look it all up, and accept loads of tickets that are, in fact, not valid! However in some cases, they may think a ticket is not valid when it is, in that case a good guard will check Avantix and see what the restriction is, but some do not and charge an excess, incorrectly.

The excess is the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare that would allow travel. This means that for someone travelling on an Off Peak Day return from London on, say, the 1820 train to Peterborough, would be charged the difference in price between the Off Peak Day Return and the Off Peak Return. However a passenger could, in my opinion, legitimately refuse to pay this excess on the basis that the departure board indicated that Off Peak tickets are valid, their ticket type is arguably Off Peak (according to ATOC there are only 3 types, and more restrictive types are called Super Off Peak), anyone fancy trying that and see if they take you to court over it? I'd love to see a ruling against them, and I am not a legal expert but there has to be a chance of a victory for the customer there!

The really odd thing is that if a passenger is on the 1900, this is not valid on an Off Peak Day but is valid on a Super Off Peak - in contradiction to what ATOC say. So you could be excessed from an Off Peak to a Super Off Peak! Madness. Again, I'd like to see someone try that and refuse to pay saying "see you in court!" - any takers?

Until people challenge it they will continue to get away with it!!

Yep, you could use the 0744 (if it exists) from York - Shipley with a Shipley - York SVR return portion if the outward is from the day previous.

I've been wondering, if there really are so many possible variations on journies around the country, then wouldn't it make more sense to highlight these validity codes on the ticket and make sure everyone is aware of how to look them up? I know some of the Avantix restrictions are very long and it wouldn't be practical to print on a ticket. Even better, how about, along with your travel ticket, you are also given a second ticket that only shows the information on the time restrictions. Using the example in the OP, surely you could shrink down (or re-format) the validity box in the following link:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_3Y.pdf

onto a second NR ticket if the entire ticket was dedicated to that purpose. That way people would know when their ticket was valid, and the guards wouldn't have to check Avantix each time.

I know for a fact (well, 99% I guess), again using my example, had my girlfriend gone to Shipley ticket office to purchase an off peak return to York, she would not have been informed that she could actually return on any service that she liked, regardless of the time. She would have assumed off peak is after about 9:30 and would have waited until after then not knowing any different.

Think of the trees :roll:

Print it on the back of the journey ticket then :P

Restrictions are supposed to be on the ticket if you look at the relevant guidelines. Of course there isn't room to put restrictions on a ticket, so it is easier either to display it on the screen/website or get teh booking office staff to explain them to you.

Unless you know exactly where to look on NRE, then I'm not sure that it is easy to find the specific restriction for your ticket.

On the East Coast booking engine for example, if you bring up the ticket information on any off peak return ticket, it states that

"You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel on Off-Peak tickets unless the ticket restriction for the journey you are making does not allow it. If you intend to start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station, please call 08457 48 49 50 to check if it is available on your specific journey."

It doesn't even link to the relvant restriction, it just suggests you ring up an expensive premium rate number, which I'm sure will put a lot of people off. Probably resulting in many people breaking their journeys when not allowed, for example.

That isn't a premium-rate number; it's a local-rate number.

Oops, I was thinking of 0870 and got muddled up. My bad. However, I still think it should link to the restriction on the NRE or something (which costs nothing free!), rather than suggest we phone up (local rate or premium, this will still cost regardless).

I know booking engines rely on only showing us tickets that match the criteria we have supplied, but for things like breaking of journey, it should definitely be made a lot clearer how passengers can easily access this information.

0845 is still "premium" in the sense that the vast majority of fixed and mobile phone packages these days have inclusive calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers but charge extra for 084 and 087 numbers. NREs would be a good candidate for an 03 number in my view.

0870 isn't premium-rate either, and I don't think revenue-sharing is allowed on it anymore Most fixed-line providers now include 0870 in free minutes, and 0845 appears in several packages too. No good if you're on a mobile, I'll grant you.

Of course this has just meant that providers have migrated 0845 to 0843/0844 (think TfL) and 0870 to 0871 (Ryanair and many holiday providers). 0871s are bloody expensive.

Anyway sorry for getting off-topic!

0845 is 20p/min from mobiles (o2 anyway, not checked others), which given the nature of the line, is likely to be where one is calling it from.

Anyway, what would be nice to see is the ticket restriction code printed on the ticket and a little app on the NR website where users can enter it and it gives a simple summary of the restrictions, and shows which trains may be used and which are barred.

I don't think a code on a ticket, that only rail staff or people with web access can look up, is really that helpful. Not to mention that the restrictions themselves are almost impossible to make sense of, in some cases.

The old "airline" tickets possibly had the code, I can't remember, but they certainly had a brief summary of the validity, sometimes it was useful and sometimes it wasn't, depending on how complex the full text was and whether it could be abbreviated.

If you had a restriction code, you could of course have these listed at stations on the timetable posters, or maps. An app to check would be a bonus, but not essential.

Far easier than phoning up anyone to ask something too, regardless of the cost of the call.

Problem is there is, I think, a four-figure number of them, isn't there? (or close to that!) and some of them are incredibly long.

This is because each TOC wants to do it's own thing and has it's own ideas. The old Saver, that was deemed by ATOC to be too complicated, was, under BR, valid at any time on non-London area journeys. Now there are many dozens and possibly hundreds of different definitions just for the old Saver tickets that were all previously valid on any train!

And, guess what? ATOC wants each TOC to have even more control of their own affairs:I can only see it getting worse. More and more restrictions, more and more wording on each one, and getting more draconian all the time. Note the spin, although at least they don't try to claim they will aim for better value for money for passengers, as we all know the chances of that are absolutely non-existent.

yorkie said:

The honest truth is that, apart from a few very good guards, most guards only know the basics, don't have time to look it all up, and accept loads of tickets that are, in fact, not valid! However in some cases, they may think a ticket is not valid when it is, in that case a good guard will check Avantix and see what the restriction is, but some do not and charge an excess, incorrectly.

The excess is the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare that would allow travel. This means that for someone travelling on an Off Peak Day return from London on, say, the 1820 train to Peterborough, would be charged the difference in price between the Off Peak Day Return and the Off Peak Return. However a passenger could, in my opinion, legitimately refuse to pay this excess on the basis that the departure board indicated that Off Peak tickets are valid, their ticket type is arguably Off Peak (according to ATOC there are only 3 types, and more restrictive types are called Super Off Peak), anyone fancy trying that and see if they take you to court over it? I'd love to see a ruling against them, and I am not a legal expert but there has to be a chance of a victory for the customer there!

The really odd thing is that if a passenger is on the 1900, this is not valid on an Off Peak Day but is valid on a Super Off Peak - in contradiction to what ATOC say. So you could be excessed from an Off Peak to a Super Off Peak! Madness. Again, I'd like to see someone try that and refuse to pay saying "see you in court!" - any takers?

Until people challenge it they will continue to get away with it!!

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I agree but guess that the issue is no one would want to take on a large organisation such as ATOC due to risk of not winning and having to pick up excessive legal costs.

I do think that if a collaboration of legal experts, customers and sponsors with cash to fund it then it could be done-although perhaps that would see increase in fares as you point out.

I'm not a legal expert but think that the whole fares structure with contradictory rules, hidden rules out of the public domain and lack of clarity makes the system extremely flaky and open to an epic legal challenge that would lead to a start from scratch rewrite of the system-it's not even borderline in some cases but I am not sure it would happen anytime soon.