NXEA prosecution - please help!

hgb201 · 31 Jul 2011

Hi,

Im very new to this forum as you can see.

Stupidly I was not travelling my normal route and didnt buy a full ticket for a journey I was completing on a National Express route in to Stratford - ridiculous I know and no excuses for this.

I received a letter asking me to sign to agree that it was me that was caught with no ticket. Which I signed and sent back.

I have now received a court summons for the end of August. This is my first ever criminal/rail/driving offence. Something which I deeply regret as it now could affect future career prospects (im not sure on what a minor offence will do to my record?)

Clearly I have made an error in judgment. Does this now mean I am guaranteed to get a criminal record as obviously when I do reply back to the summon i will be pleading "guilty". Once the summons has been issued is there any possible way to settle out of court in anyones previous experience?

I apologise as im sure this subject has been brought up far too many times before but would really appreciate any advice on this as am very nervous as to the effects it could have on my future career.

Many thanks for any replies.

RailUK Forums

scotsman · 31 Jul 2011

Hey, I'm not an expert. However there are a few members who have expertise, but are not legal advisors as such.

Generally, we need to know:
Where and when you travelled from or to
Which tickets (if any) you held
The circumstances under which you travelled without a ticket
Who operated the train you were on

hgb201 · 1 Aug 2011

Generally, we need to know:
Where and when you travelled from or to - I travelled from Sudbury, Suffolk to Stratford
Which tickets (if any) you held - I only had a ticket between Sudbury and Witham
The circumstances under which you travelled without a ticket - No mitigating circumstances pure fare avoidance (ridiculous I know)
Who operated the train you were on - National Express East Anglia

Many thanks for your reply

scotsman · 1 Aug 2011

hgb201 said:
Generally, we need to know:
Where and when you travelled from or to - I travelled from Sudbury, Suffolk to Stratford
Which tickets (if any) you held - I only had a ticket between Sudbury and Witham
The circumstances under which you travelled without a ticket - No mitigating circumstances pure fare avoidance (ridiculous I know)
Who operated the train you were on - National Express East Anglia

Many thanks for your reply

Thanks.

Sudbury has a ticket machine. Was it fully functioning? Did it sell a full range of tickets? Did it accept cash as well as cards? (PM me for why)

Was there an opportunity to purchase a ticket on the train?

I believe you had to change trains at Ipswich, for how long were you at Ipswich?

Was there an opportunity to purchase a ticket on the second train?

Were you caught on the train or at the station?

AlterEgo · 1 Aug 2011

There are a few posters on here who can give very good, non-judgmental, and sensible advice with this type of thing. I am not an expert on fare evasion or court appearances, so hang tight and someone will no doubt be along later in the course of this thread to advise.

It has been possible, in some previous cases we have seen on this forum, to successfully settle out of court. It is not cheap, but is infinitely preferable to a fine and criminal record. Whether or not this is a realistic prospect in this case is not for me to say. Have you ever been caught evading the fare before?

bb21 · 1 Aug 2011

scotsman said:
I believe you had to change trains at Ipswich, for how long were you at Ipswich?

Sudbury - Stratford via Ipswich? Do you mean Marks Tey? Am I missing something here?

AlterEgo · 1 Aug 2011

Also - forgot to add. Exactly which offence are you being prosecuted for? There are a couple that might fit here.

yorkie · 1 Aug 2011

hgb201 said:
The circumstances under which you travelled without a ticket - No mitigating circumstances pure fare avoidance (ridiculous I know)

In that case it may be worth offering a sum of around £200 to settle out of court. If you are admitting intent to avoid payment, then it's an open-and-shut case and the only way to avoid a criminal record is to hope they will settle out of court. You'll only achieve that by offering a sizeable sum. (This is not legal advice).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

scotsman said:
Were you caught on the train or at the station?

Indeed, and also the circumstances and what exactly was said.

If there was no ticket machine available at Sudbury that functioned and accepted the required method of payment, then it may be that the first opportunity to pay would be Stratford (there would be insufficient time at Marks Tey), however if the OP attempted to exit the station by walking past an opportunity to pay for the journey, e.g. by double-gating or similar, then the lack of facilities at Sudbury becomes irrelevant. Also if the OP admitted intent to avoid payment, then again the same applies.

tony_mac · 1 Aug 2011

There are two possible offences, either under the railway byelaws or the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

The first one is easier for them prove, but it is not a recordable offence. The second is more difficult, but the penalties may be higher and a conviction will be recorded on the police national computer.

hgb201 · 1 Aug 2011

Hi thanks again for your replies.

Yes the ticket machine was working. The route Is Sudbury changing at Marks Tey to get on to Stratford.

As I have said there was no reason for the avoidance so I will have to plead guilty to the summons. The summons states the Railway Byelaws no18 section 219 and schedule 20 is the rule broken.

To offer to settle which I am desperate to do am I best to try and call them if so is there a phone number?

Many thanks

LexyBoy · 1 Aug 2011

I believe this might be relevant:

hgb201 said:
Which tickets (if any) you held - I only had a ticket between Sudbury and Witham

Is this a season ticket?

If so you would not have been able to buy the ticket required (Witham-Stratford) from the TVM, and thus would be totally within your rights to buy it at Stratford. You are not required to interrupt your journey to buy a ticket en-route, so should be allowed to buy it on arrival at Stratford (though if there is sufficient time at an interchange station, you should buy there, or on-board if possible).

Of course, all of this depends on the exact circumstances as others have said.

(As usual, this is not legal advice)

First class · 1 Aug 2011

hgb201 said:
Hi thanks again for your replies.

Yes the ticket machine was working. The route Is Sudbury changing at Marks Tey to get on to Stratford.

As I have said there was no reason for the avoidance so I will have to plead guilty to the summons. The summons states the Railway Byelaws no18 section 219 and schedule 20 is the rule broken.

To offer to settle which I am desperate to do am I best to try and call them if so is there a phone number?

Many thanks

Wouldn't make an offer over £100 to settle out of court in your case. A certain TOC I am very familar with asks for £75 "admin fee" to make a 5(3a) dissapear, for a first offence only mind.

a) The court will probably give you a small fine plus £15 VS
b) It won't be recorded (i.e. no criminal record)
c) No real need for you to turn up. Plead guilty by post.
d) Don't stress! If you do want to make an out of court settlement then don't let them quote some stupid amount. A court won't fine you £200 for a byelaw.
e) You are very luck that they chose to be lazy and prosecute under the byelaws, (less work for them). The RoRA 1889 s5(3a) would have seen you with a criminal record. I am only aware of 1 TOC that solely prosecutes fare offences with this act, (not byelaws; Merseyrail).

scotsman · 1 Aug 2011

LexyBoy said:
I believe this might be relevant:

Is this a season ticket?

If so you would not have been able to buy the ticket required (Witham-Stratford) from the TVM, and thus would be totally within your rights to buy it at Stratford. You are not required to interrupt your journey to buy a ticket en-route, so should be allowed to buy it on arrival at Stratford (though if there is sufficient time at an interchange station, you should buy there, or on-board if possible).

Of course, all of this depends on the exact circumstances as others have said.

(As usual, this is not legal advice)

Doesn't need to be a season ticket to not purchase at a TVM. As long as the train from Marks Tey to Stratford stopped at Witham, then there is a case to be made for purchasing onboard/Stratford

klewer · 1 Aug 2011

Wonder why the OP didn't receive a penalty fare? Surely this would have been standard practice in this instance?

LexyBoy · 1 Aug 2011

klewer said:
Wonder why the OP didn't receive a penalty fare? Surely this would have been standard practice in this instance?

Sudbury isn't a PF station. Even in a PF area, prosecution is still an option - PFs are intended as a "quick & dirty" approach to fare evasion.

yorkie · 1 Aug 2011

klewer said:
Wonder why the OP didn't receive a penalty fare? Surely this would have been standard practice in this instance?

The OP wasn't charged a fare (penalty or otherwise) because he appears to have admitted attempting to avoid the fare.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/suy/details.html

"Penalty Fares do not apply when travelling from Sudbury station."

A Penalty Fare is a charge made to innocent passengers who made a mistake. Some mistakes cannot incur a penalty fare (e.g. being off-route, being on an off peak ticket at an invalid time) while other mistakes are chargeable by a penalty fare (e.g. forgetting your Railcard, deviating from route, etc).

A fare is not a punishment. I do not make any comments on this post about what I think about penalty fares, but the facts are:

http://www.nationalexpresseastangli...formation/penalty-fares--1/penalty-fares-faqs

A penalty fare is simply a charge that National Express East Anglia is allowed to make under the Penalty Fare Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine and anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding, or attempting to avoid, paying his or her fare.

‘Fare dodging’ is a completely different matter. It is a criminal offence and we treat it as such by prosecuting offenders under criminal law.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

LexyBoy said:
PFs are intended as a "quick & dirty" approach to fare evasion.

PFs do not apply to fare evaders, PFs are a charge made to people who make a mistake e.g. forgetting to carry their railcard, being in a rush to purchase a ticket and not queuing for an unspecified length of time, that sort of thing.

DaveNewcastle · 1 Aug 2011

@hgb201
As others have noted, the Byelaw offence does not lead to an entry on the Police National Computer (PNC) and should not appear as a Criminal Conviction when a CRB check is made.

Yes, you may plea guilty, and I assume that the Summons includes a form which you may use to make that admission.
However, if this is the first time that you have been accused of such an offence and you have no other convictions then it is common for the Railway Operator to accept a settlement if it is made with an apology, an assurance not to make such a foolish mistake again and an offer of a payment to cover their actual costs as well as the fare.
But it appears that quite a bit of time has now elapsed and they have now prepared evidence to take to the Magistrates Court and so their willingness to abandon the Claim at this stage may be less than enthusiastic. I suggest contacting their Prosecutions Manager by phone as soon as you can. The number may not be on the Summons but the address should be.
I suggest a polite and straight-to-the-point discussion with the case reference number from the Summons. Explain that you have received the Summons, you admit the Offence, you really regret it, have never done anything like this in te past, and never will do anything like it again and wonder if you could simply make a compensation payment to save them and the Courts from investing any more time in such a regrettable matter.
Good luck.

DaveNewcastle · 1 Aug 2011

@hgb201
As First class has pointed out, a sum of £100 or less is appropriate for a RRA S.5 Offence on the first occassion (not to be confused with unknown guy's situation). However, your Offence is the lesser Byelaw Offence (often referred to as an 'absolute offence' or 'strict liability'). I would definitely expect the TOC's Prosecution's Manager to accept a sum under £100 for a first offence for a S18 Byelaw offence. Please make your apologies as soon as possible and ask if the Company will accept a settlement which spares them (and the Courts) the time and expense of a Hearing.

DaveNewcastle · 1 Aug 2011

The Boat said:
. . . . . but considering the amount of time she had been defrauding the railway industry, we had no choice but to pursue criminal charges against her. This is major fraud.

To be fair to the OP and to the other poster on this thread, this is yet another and very different situation. I'm sure we'd all expect a regular Offender to be treated quite differently from a First Time offender (the OP) or a once previously Offender, the second poster admitting to ticketless travel. Lets not confuse the thread further with other, very different, examples!

The Boat · 1 Aug 2011

DaveNewcastle said:
To be fair to the OP and to the other poster on this thread, this is yet another and very different situation. I'm sure we'd all expect a regular Offender to be treated quite differently from a First Time offender (the OP) or a once previously Offender, the second poster admitting to ticketless travel. Lets not confuse the thread further with other, very different, examples!

Dave

I believe this was the first time National Express Fraud Unit stop her

They started digging into her travel movements/ work etc and put 2 and 2 together and realised she had been travelling the same route for years

Is the above OP a one off Ticket ?

Stigy · 1 Aug 2011

The Boat said:
Your lucky they never got the British Transport police on the your case

That was an exceptional case of fraud. For simple fare evasion cases, BTP and the CPS would more than likely settle for a caution for a first offence (much better than the TOC doing the prosecuting....For the offender at least!).

First Class said:
b) It won't be recorded (i.e. no criminal record)
e) You are very luck that they chose to be lazy and prosecute under the byelaws, (less work for them). The RoRA 1889 s5(3a) would have seen you with a criminal record. I am only aware of 1 TOC that solely prosecutes fare offences with this act, (not byelaws; Merseyrail).

You're correct that it's a non-recordable offence on PNC, but it's still a criminal one, which could lead to a criminal record.

It's not about being lazy, if the evidence isn't there to suggest a 5(3)a breach, then the Byelaw will have to do. Merseyrail may only prosecute for RRA offences for ticketless travel, but I'd imagine that has more to do with them prefering to deal with the Strict Liability matter of Byelaw ticketing offences by way of a Penalty Fare Notice. If their staff reported an alleged fare evader, but Merseyrail couldn't prove intent, they'd probably either settle outside court, or go with the Byelaw.

yorkie · 1 Aug 2011

DaveNewcastle said:
Lets not confuse the thread further with other, very different, examples!

I agree! We had 2, and then 3 completely different issues (not just different scenarios but completely different offences!) on the same thread, so I have spent the past 10 minutes tidying them!

The Boat - What you posted is quite different to either situation! I removed your post, it was already posted here back in February 2011. As that is an old topic, it is now locked, however if there is anything significant to add to it please PM me and I will arrange for it to be unlocked.

unknown guy's issue has been moved to a new topic that accurately describes the matter. Adult on child ticket on LU - possible criminal record

It would be a huge help if people could try to keep completely different issues in different topics when it comes to this sort of topic where someone wants advice about a legal matter. If someone else has been prosecuted for a completely different offence, it is arguably of no help or interest to the OP.

Nick W · 1 Aug 2011

I believe you lot have missed an essential element:

RAILWAY BYELAWS said:
18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
A person shall hand over this ticket for inspection when asked to do so by an authorised person.
No person shall be in breach of this Byelaw 18 if: (i) there were no facilities for the issue of tickets available at the time when and the station where the station where he began his journey; or (ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey indicating that he may travel without a valid ticket; or (iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

Of course it depends when the OP was caught. If before leaving Stratford station the OP cannot be prosecuted under the byelaws.

Stigy · 1 Aug 2011

Nick W said:
I believe you lot have missed an essential element:

I thought it was established that there was facilities available? (ticket machine

)

tony_mac · 1 Aug 2011

what about....

Yes the ticket machine was working

Nick W · 1 Aug 2011

Stigy said:
I thought it was established that there was facilities available? (ticket machine )

AFAIA no ticket machine allows you to change the origin station.

tony_mac · 1 Aug 2011

Yes, there are circumstances where that would be important.

But, it doesn't sound like the OP would want to try and run a technical defence, and I imagine that whatever was said under questioning would undermine it anyway.

Nick W · 1 Aug 2011

tony_mac said:
Yes, there are circumstances where that would be important.

But, it doesn't sound like the OP would want to try and run a technical defence, and I imagine that whatever was said under questioning would undermine it anyway.

No but the OP could point this out in the letter, offer to pay the cost and a reasonable fee for the hassle incurred by not seeking to purchase the ticket in advance or get off at Witham. The department may wish to choose to prosecute under another offence of course, but the fact they haven't in the first instance suggests that the case is weak.

yorkie · 2 Aug 2011

tony_mac said:
Yes, there are circumstances where that would be important.

But, it doesn't sound like the OP would want to try and run a technical defence, and I imagine that whatever was said under questioning would undermine it anyway.

Indeed, this is futile, he appears to have already admitted intent to travel without a ticket, yet is being prosecuted for a far more lenient offence. There is no point now trying a technical defence. We do not know what was said at Stratford, or was he caught before Stratford? We have too little information to assist and he isn't asking for assistance in that respect anyway.

Nick W · 2 Aug 2011

yorkie said:
Indeed, this is futile, he appears to have already admitted intent to travel without a ticket, yet is being prosecuted for a far more lenient offence. There is no point now trying a technical defence.

True, but once the technical defence is pointed out, the ToC will have to decided either to drop the charge and prosecute under the RoRA, accept payment and perhaps a reasonable fee or drop it all together. The prosecutor can't simply stand up and say "yes he's not guilty of this offence, but we decided to be more lenient".

The fact that they haven't prosecuted under the RoRA suggests that they do not believe their case to be concrete and they may well be delighted to offer a reduced settlement.

NXEA prosecution - please help!

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