Durham to Barrow-in-Furness: Permitted routes and journey planner disagreements

Hello all,

These questions are about a trip I do from Durham to Barrow-in-Furness (BiF) a few times a year. Journey planners have always disagreed over the valid routes, so I've tried to work out what I think should be allowed. This (almost inevitably) has caused me more confusion! Can people confirm the following, or (more likely) where I've gone wrong!

Short question:
Given that ''All maps must be used... Maps must be used in strict sequence...[and] tracing may move from map to map only at a point where the two maps touch", is it possible to pass through a map simply by going through a station that's on the map. Specifically, can one pass through map MH at Blackburn if travelling on the Caldervale Line between Leeds and Preston?

Long question:

Journey: Durham to BiF

*Shortest route is Durham, to Newcastle, to Carlisle, to BiF via Cumbria Coast
*Valid Routeing Points are: Newcastle-Carlisle and Newcastle-Lancaster Group (Darlington fails fares check)
*The Newcastle-Carlisle routeing repeats the shortest route.
*So, to the Newcastle-Lancaster Group. This is valid via:
**GN+NC and TP+MH+NC
***GN+NC is straight forward enough: it allows travel from Durham to Carlisle, then to BiF via either Lancaster or Cumbria Coast (doubling back at Lancaster is permitted by an easement)

So far, so simple. TP+MH+NC is more complicated. This covers validity south of Durham. There are, in theory, three routes that you might think of to take. Here's my interpretation As per the routeing guide:

* Via York, Leeds, Hellifield, Carnforth. Valid as long as it is possible to pass through map MH at Hellifield station (ie travel on map TP to Hellifield, be on map MH at Hellifeild, then use map NC to get to BiF)
* Via York, Leeds, Caldverale Line via Burnley/Blackburn to Preston. Valid, again as long as it is possible to pass through a map at a station (MH again, this time at Blackburn)
* Via York, Leeds, Manchester, Bolton, Preston. Valid but only via Blackburn. As there is no connection between Bolton and Preston on maps MH to NC, this is not valid between those two stations (ie on a TPE from Manchester to BIF)

Now, on to the journey planners. East Coast and other planners only allow you travel via Carlisle ie it won't accept a routeing via Hellifield, Blackburn, or Manchester. National Rail seems to prefer the routeing via Blackburn, but will send you on any of the routes above, including via TPE services between Piccadilly and Barrow. The fastest way of doing this journey varies from time to time depending on connections, but it can be via any one of these routes!

BTW, I've never been challenged using any of these routes before, but it would be nice to know if I have understood this correctly and to be in a position to be confident that what I was doing was correct if challenged!

cuccir said:

....Short question:
Given that ''All maps must be used... Maps must be used in strict sequence...[and] tracing may move from map to map only at a point where the two maps touch", is it possible to pass through a map simply by going through a station that's on the map. Specifically, can one pass through map MH at Blackburn if travelling on the Caldervale Line between Leeds and Preston?....

Click to expand...

An interesting question, I had to go back to the guide to consider the wording. Based on the wording, I would say you must use a part of the map for the route.

I'm pretty sure that you have to ignore any routes that go through an invalid routeing point according to the fares check. This means that you can't go through Darlington. See pages F5 and F6 in the National Routeing Guide in detail, specifically the example of Lydney to Church Stretton which must avoid Shrewsbury.

MikeWh said:

I'm pretty sure that you have to ignore any routes that go through an invalid routeing point according to the fares check. This means that you can't go through Darlington. See pages F5 and F6 in the National Routeing Guide in detail, specifically the example of Lydney to Church Stretton which must avoid Shrewsbury.

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I think this is covered by the following easement:


30236 Customers travelling from Durham and Chester Le Street to Northallerton
and beyond may travel via Darlington. The easement applies in both
directions

hairyhandedfool said:

An interesting question, I had to go back to the guide to consider the wording. Based on the wording, I would say you must use a part of the map for the route.

Click to expand...

If this is the case, then as far as I can tell the only valid southbound route between Durham and BiF (or indeed Newcastle and any Lancaster Group station) would be: >York > Manchester>Bolton>: Blackburn>Preston>Lancaster :Hellifield>Lancaster/Carnforth

Given that this is presumably not the intention, it implies that you can pass through a map at a station.

EDIT:

I'm also interested in the Piccadilly routing. The ticket is certianly valid via Piccadilly but not seems not to be technically valid via the Bolton-Preston route. I suspect that this is something which is meant to be valid, but is overlooked in the routeing guide - have I got this correct?

cuccir said:

Hello all,
Short question:
Given that ''All maps must be used... Maps must be used in strict sequence...[and] tracing may move from map to map only at a point where the two maps touch", is it possible to pass through a map simply by going through a station that's on the map. Specifically, can one pass through map MH at Blackburn if travelling on the Caldervale Line between Leeds and Preston?

Click to expand...

No You must use each map i.e. travel between at least two routeing points on each map.

*Shortest route is Durham, to Newcastle, to Carlisle, to BiF via Cumbria Coast
*Valid Routeing Points are: Newcastle-Carlisle and Newcastle-Lancaster Group (Darlington fails fares check)
*The Newcastle-Carlisle routeing repeats the shortest route.

Click to expand...

All correct

*So, to the Newcastle-Lancaster Group. This is valid via:
**GN+NC and TP+MH+NC
***GN+NC is straight forward enough: it allows travel from Durham to Carlisle, then to BiF via either Lancaster or Cumbria Coast (doubling back at Lancaster is permitted by an easement)

Click to expand...

Although academical as the route is shown as valid above, you can not travel via the Cumbria Coast on this map combination as you have to go to Lancaster before going on to Barrow.
(The permitted route is the shortest route to the originating routeing point and then mapped routes to the destination routeing point and then the shortest route to your destination)

So far, so simple. TP+MH+NC is more complicated. This covers validity south of Durham. There are, in theory, three routes that you might think of to take. Here's my interpretation As per the routeing guide:

* Via York, Leeds, Hellifield, Carnforth. Valid as long as it is possible to pass through map MH at Hellifield station (ie travel on map TP to Hellifield, be on map MH at Hellifeild, then use map NC to get to BiF)
* Via York, Leeds, Caldverale Line via Burnley/Blackburn to Preston. Valid, again as long as it is possible to pass through a map at a station (MH again, this time at Blackburn)
* Via York, Leeds, Manchester, Bolton, Preston. Valid but only via Blackburn. As there is no connection between Bolton and Preston on maps MH to NC, this is not valid between those two stations (ie on a TPE from Manchester to BIF)

Click to expand...

I wouls say that these are all invalid as you have to travel to your originating routeing point by the shortest route before starting on the mapped route. These routes would then require doubling back through Chester-Le-Street and passing through your origin station again, both of which are not permitted.


Peter

collybs said:

(The permitted route is the shortest route to the originating routeing point and then mapped routes to the destination routeing point and then the shortest route to your destination)

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Thanks for your extensive response, I always forget this rule. However does the easement - which I should have mentioned in my first post - that "Customers travelling from Durham and Chester Le Street to Northallerton and beyond may travel via Darlington. The easement applies in both directions" not cover this, presumably so Newcastle can be used as a routeing point for southbound journeys?

collybs said:

No You must use each map i.e. travel between at least two routeing points on each map.

Click to expand...

Interesting. So it seems that under the routeing guide's rules, this technically should not be allowed on any cross-pennine route other than a very odd and specific one via Manchester and Blackburn. Again, I suspect that this is an oversight, but it would explain why some of the journey planners refuse any journey other than those via Newcastle and Carlisle.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Second thought.

Or maybe it isn't? Is the intention that travellers from the Newcastle to Lancaster Group go via Carlisle? If so it seems odd to have the TP+MH+NC routeing in at all,as this prevents the use of TP+NC - something I'd call a common sense routeing for this journey.

cuccir said:

Short question:
Given that ''All maps must be used... Maps must be used in strict sequence...[and] tracing may move from map to map only at a point where the two maps touch", is it possible to pass through a map simply by going through a station that's on the map. Specifically, can one pass through map MH at Blackburn if travelling on the Caldervale Line between Leeds and Preston?

Click to expand...

No.

cuccir said:

* Via York, Leeds, Hellifield, Carnforth. Valid as long as it is possible to pass through map MH at Hellifield station (ie travel on map TP to Hellifield, be on map MH at Hellifeild, then use map NC to get to BiF)

Click to expand...

Map TP doesn't go to Hellifield so this is not valid.

cuccir said:

* Via York, Leeds, Caldverale Line via Burnley/Blackburn to Preston. Valid, again as long as it is possible to pass through a map at a station (MH again, this time at Blackburn)

Click to expand...

No, you can't do that. However you can go Bradford - Halifax - Blackburn - Hellifield - Wennington - Lancaster, or Huddersfield - Stalybridge - Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn - Preston.

cuccir said:

* Via York, Leeds, Manchester, Bolton, Preston. Valid but only via Blackburn. As there is no connection between Bolton and Preston on maps MH to NC, this is not valid between those two stations (ie on a TPE from Manchester to BIF)

Click to expand...

Correct.

cuccir said:

BTW, I've never been challenged using any of these routes before, but it would be nice to know if I have understood this correctly and to be in a position to be confident that what I was doing was correct if challenged!

Click to expand...

In theory some of these routes above have probably not been included in the routeing guide due to an oversight. In reality, you're unlikely to be challenged using any of the routes mentioned above.

cuccir said:

Or maybe it isn't? Is the intention that travellers from the Newcastle to Lancaster Group go via Carlisle? If so it seems odd to have the TP+MH+NC routeing in at all,as this prevents the use of TP+NC - something I'd call a common sense routeing for this journey.

Click to expand...

I understand this easement as a Routeing Point Easement as none of the other types fit. (See here, page F10.) This means that although Darlington does not pass the fares check rule, it can still be used as an appropriate Routeing Point. It does not, however, allow doubleback via Newcastle. Fortunately Darlington - Lancaster still allows the above map combination, amongst others, so the analysis still stands.

bb21 said:

you can go Bradford - Halifax - Blackburn - Hellifield - Wennington - Lancaster, or Huddersfield - Stalybridge - Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn - Preston.

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Those are pretty strange routeings! The first one you can only do on a summer sunday (on Dales Rail), the second would could see you leaving a train from Manchester to Preston at Bolton.

snail said:

Those are pretty strange routeings! The first one you can only do on a summer sunday (on Dales Rail), the second would could see you leaving a train from Manchester to Preston at Bolton.

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I didn't check service patterns before posting, but yes I agree. There are other routes that are not included in the NRG which are reasonable and unlikely to be challenged.

There aren't many Blackburn-Hellifield trains

hairyhandedfool said:

There aren't many Blackburn-Hellifield trains

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Currently two a week, 0927 and 1022 on a Sunday morning. Drops to one after 11 Sept and none after 23 Oct.