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Revised NRCoC

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yorkie

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Is overnight break of journey really that common? It's not something I have ever considered, even though I know I could do it.
I once did a journey York-Weymouth with an overnight stay at Slough. Unfortunately I got a train from Paddington a time that was before the last Waterloo to Weymouth train (that arrived at something like 1am - no-one should be forced to do that!), I booked a Travelodge in Slough because it was convenient and allowed me to break my journey at a sensible time.

The staff at Slough were utterly ridiculous and I had to argue for about 10 minutes with them. Under the simple rules that you may break your journey overnight if you wish, there isn't a problem. Under these new rules, I am forced to hang around at Paddington until the last train to Waterloo has left to avoid the ticket barrier staff at Slough claiming I should not be breaking my journey overnight.

Is there any sense to that?
The reaction to this is symptomatic of the issues surrounding rail ticketing in general. Many complain that it's too complex yet if anything is done to try to simplify or restrict it others protest loudly that their rights are being infringed.
I am against simplification that results in our rights being infringed. Why should our rights be reduced? The fares go up, and our rights get withdrawn. That's hardly acceptable.
 
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Paul Kelly

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Is overnight break of journey really that common? It's not something I have ever considered, even though I know I could do it.
You might be making a long journey and want to break it up by stopping to visit friends or family along the way. Under the old conditions you could arrive in time to have an evening meal with them and socialise a bit. Now you have to arrive so late that you might as well just go straight to bed when you get there.
 

DaveNewcastle

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'Common?' Probably not.
But it can be necessary.

I tried to plan a trip from Newcastle to Mallaig and back (using the Jacobite from Ft William with just 2 hrs in Mallaig). It just can't be done without two overnight stays.
I'm not even sure it could be done from Glasgow without an overnight on the northbound leg.

There will be many other such journeys which cannot be done in a day, even starting with the first available service, nevermind starting after work or whatever.
 

AlterEgo

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Since I've been employed on the railway, I can count the number of times I have been asked about overnight Break of Journey on one hand. It is not a common request, but I agree that overnight BoJ is important - particularly on longer journeys.
 

thedbdiboy

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Just a few clarifications on the revised ticket conditions to calm all the consipracy theorists out there:

1) There is no intention to restrict use of off-peak tickets on Sleepers. In due course the relevant restriction codes will make this explicit but in the meantime overnight use will be allowed beyond 0429 on these services. I believe a note will be sent out to retail staff to clarify this.

2) Until 2008, there was no break of journey allowed at all on the outward portion of Savers. This was relaxed when they became off-peak tickets so that only a few are now so restricted. These tickets have always been intended to be mainly used on date of first validity for the outward journey. The new rules simplify what had become a bit of a mess regarding overnight validity, and now make it clear that you can use them the next day if you can't complete your journey. It doesn't say you have to give reasons why you can't complete your journey. There is nothing to stop anyone breaking their journey at anytime the first day and resuming it the second day. The rule says 'if the journey cannot be reasonably completed on the first day' allowing for a very wide and sensible use of interpretation. The only requirement with off-peak/super off-peak tickets is that the journey is commenced on the first day. Believe it or not this is a genuine attempt to balance commercial requirments and passenger needs!

The changes are to the ticket conditions. The only change to the NRCoC at this stage is to condition 11, which would otherwise over-ride the ticket conditions, and it isn't helpful to anyone to have instructions in different places.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You might be making a long journey and want to break it up by stopping to visit friends or family along the way. Under the old conditions you could arrive in time to have an evening meal with them and socialise a bit. Now you have to arrive so late that you might as well just go straight to bed when you get there.

Not true - see post above! Your family meal is safe :)
 

tony_mac

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I didn't find the rules particularly confusing, considering the 36-page list of easements that you have to read everytime you buy a ticket in case some have changed without warning.

It doesn't say you have to give reasons why you can't complete your journey.
but it's now open to different interpretations, and some staff will see it that way (as they have done at Slough).

It actually seems to be much less clear than it is now - I can't tell what is supposed to constitute 'can't complete your journey' and what isn't.
 

Paul Kelly

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Not true - see post above! Your family meal is safe :)
That's good to know and thanks for the clarification. But even with the current conditions that explicitly state "Where a passenger wishes to stop overnight or the journey cannot be completed within one day, break of journey for an overnight stay is allowed.", I have experience of it taking a long time (upwards of 15 minutes) of discussion (not a particularly pleasant experience) with booking office staff that the restriction means what it says. Without it being explicit, I can only imagine this will be worse and I have a strong hunch that many staff who don't keep themselves up-to-date with these sorts of changes will interpret it to mean that such a journey can only be broken overnight if the last onward train has already left.
 

yorkie

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The new rules simplify what had become a bit of a mess regarding overnight validity, and now make it clear that you can use them the next day if you can't complete your journey. It doesn't say you have to give reasons why you can't complete your journey. There is nothing to stop anyone breaking their journey at anytime the first day and resuming it the second day. The rule says 'if the journey cannot be reasonably completed on the first day' allowing for a very wide and sensible use of interpretation. The only requirement with off-peak/super off-peak tickets is that the journey is commenced on the first day. Believe it or not this is a genuine attempt to balance commercial requirments and passenger needs!
Thanks for this, I do feel a bit re-assured at the intentions, but I still have concerns because staff interpret such rules in different ways.

In my case a few years ago I got a train at about 1730 from York, arriving into London about 1930. After transferring from KGX to PAD and having a meal, I got a train from Paddington to Slough at something like 2100.

Now, yes there is a 2035 to Weymouth arriving 2336, and the last train is 2135 arriving 0035. It is great that such late trains exist and I am sure they are very useful to many people. But, I didn't want to arrive into Weymouth at around midnight.

Therefore I booked overnight accommodation at a sensible place en-route, on a permitted route. However when I tried to exit that station (Slough) the staff told me that I could have got the 2135 to Weymouth and because I chose not to get that, I could have completed my journey, and therefore my ticket could be withdrawn. They wrote "Not valid" on the back of the ticket. I spent quite some time arguing my case, and that it wasn't "reasonable" to be forced to arrive in Weymouth at 0035. Some B&Bs do not permit a customer to arrive after 2200, for example. They eventually let me through but it was not a nice ordeal!

The next day I had no problems resuming my journey from Slough, via Basingstoke.

Is it intended that a journey such as mine above should be acceptable on the outward portion of an Off Peak Return?

And is there any way to prove to barrier staff that it is "reasonable" not to want to arrive at a destination after approximately, say, 2200?
 

sheff1

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but it's now open to different interpretations, and some staff will see it that way (as they have done at Slough).

It actually seems to be much less clear than it is now - I can't tell what is supposed to constitute 'can't complete your journey' and what isn't.

Agree 100%

dbdiboy sounds very confident, but I doubt an internet forum post by an unknown person will carry much weight. The previous "Where a passenger wishes to stop overnight or the journey cannot be completed within one day...." is much clearer


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And is there any way to prove to barrier staff that it is "reasonable" not to want to arrive at a destination after approximately, say, 2200?

Under the existing explicit condition there should have been no reason to prove anything to anyone.

The very fact that you were put through this ordeal when the condition was clear makes me concerned as to what might happen when the clarity is lost.
 
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Greenback

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Thanks for this, I do feel a bit re-assured at the intentions, but I still have concerns because staff interpret such rules in different ways.

In my case a few years ago I got a train at about 1730 from York, arriving into London about 1930. After transferring from KGX to PAD and having a meal, I got a train from Paddington to Slough at something like 2100.

Now, yes there is a 2035 to Weymouth arriving 2336, and the last train is 2135 arriving 0035. It is great that such late trains exist and I am sure they are very useful to many people. But, I didn't want to arrive into Weymouth at around midnight.

Therefore I booked overnight accommodation at a sensible place en-route, on a permitted route. However when I tried to exit that station (Slough) the staff told me that I could have got the 2135 to Weymouth and because I chose not to get that, I could have completed my journey, and therefore my ticket could be withdrawn. They wrote "Not valid" on the back of the ticket. I spent quite some time arguing my case, and that it wasn't "reasonable" to be forced to arrive in Weymouth at 0035. Some B&Bs do not permit a customer to arrive after 2200, for example. They eventually let me through but it was not a nice ordeal!

The next day I had no problems resuming my journey from Slough, via Basingstoke.

Is it intended that a journey such as mine above should be acceptable on the outward portion of an Off Peak Return?

And is there any way to prove to barrier staff that it is "reasonable" not to want to arrive at a destination after approximately, say, 2200?

I totally agree. Whatever the intention of the new wording, staff on the ground may well interpret it in an unfavourable way for the passenger.

Yorkie has made a very godo point about overnight accommodation. Some B&B's of my acquaintance will not accept a booking unless you say you are going to arrive before 2000. Apart from that, people may not wish to arrive in what may be a strange place late at night.

Despite thedbdiboy's comments I continue to have concerns about the changes. It is not that I am a conspiracy theorist, it's a realistic worry about how the rules are interpreted every day. Training and briefings on these sorts of thing sare far from ideal, as we see with the kinds of issues raised on the forum pretty regularly.
 

WillPS

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The very fact that you were put through this ordeal when the condition was clear makes me concerned as to what might happen when the clarity is lost.

Agreed. Simplification is fine but it shouldn't be done in a way that removes rights presently afforded.
 

embers25

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I'm not entirely sure this is the case. The wording in the briefing document is ambiguous.

The FGW website still allows you to buy Off-Peak / Super Off Peak singles for overnight travel on the sleeper well into October and November.

I agree the wording is ambiguous(indeed far from simplifying the old condition it is now more complex and open to interpretation by guards and knowing SWT I know how that interpretation will go!) Also whilst using the sleeper to London may be specifically allowed what about onward trains as if I then went on from Waterloo to Woking for example after using a scotrail sleeper I can guarentee SWT guards will refuse the ticket and be backed up by their equally clueless station managers.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....but many people may not wish to complete (or, or some cases, not be physically capable of completing) a journey of many hours in one day....

Train Companies must also respect the laws of this country, in cases where the passenger is not physically capable of completing the journey (which I think is a relatively small number of people), they would surely have to be allowed to break the journey overnight.
 

snail

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Train Companies must also respect the laws of this country, in cases where the passenger is not physically capable of completing the journey (which I think is a relatively small number of people), they would surely have to be allowed to break the journey overnight.
What laws are you thinking of? False imprisonment? Torture? :lol:
 

DaveNewcastle

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I didn't find the rules particularly confusing, considering the 36-page list of easements that you have to read everytime you buy a ticket in case some have changed without warning.
Do these Rules require a passenger to complete their entire examination of the Easements, Routing Maps, Ticket Restriction Codes, Fares Database and Conditions of Carriage (with external references to Case Law) within the one day, or is an overnight Break of Study permited?
 

John @ home

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Do these Rules require a passenger to complete their entire examination of the Easements, Routing Maps, Ticket Restriction Codes, Fares Database and Conditions of Carriage (with external references to Case Law) within the one day, or is an overnight Break of Study permited?
Quite! The National Routeing Guide was 233 pages in 1996. Following Fares Simplification, it's 1,416 pages today.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I asked a question of ATOC in relation to overnight break of journey, in that the briefing document was not very clear and an example it gave contradicted what it said earlier. The response from ATOC is:

ATOC said:
With regard to the specific question you have asked, the normal validity of the(Super) Off-Peak Single or outward portion of these Returns, will expire at 04:29 in the early morning after the start date shown on the ticket. This will in practice cover the vast majority of journeys, which is why we are continuing to state the normal validity as one day. In the few cases where the journey cannot be completed in this time, as an easement to that normal one day validity, customers are allowed to continue their journey on a second day, and must then complete that journey by 04:29 in the morning after this second day. However, time restrictions as shown in the restriction code will now apply on both days. This is a change from the current easement, which allows customers to break overnight and use the first train of the next day (even where this would normally be a restricted peak hour service).

Does this clarify things any better? For example, how does is this "easement" known about - does it apply to EVERY journey started late in the day, or only certain journeys as shown by the validity code?
 

Paul Kelly

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IMHO it only makes it more confusing.
ATOC said:
In the few cases where the journey cannot be completed in this time
This certainly doesn't seem to imply that people can break their journey at an arbitrary time on the first day in order to, for example, have an evening meal at a reasonable time - and if this wording and examples are being given to staff, I doubt many front-line staff would interpret it as meaning that either.

ATOC said:
This is a change from the current easement, which allows customers to break overnight and use the first train of the next day (even where this would normally be a restricted peak hour service).

Surely that's incorrect? The current situation is that the journey must be resumed the next day before 12pm and that any relevant time restrictions still apply. It sounds like they are getting confused with the conditions for day tickets, where, if a passenger was still travelling at 02:30, an overnight stop when it is impossible to complete the journey in one day might not counted as break of journey - but in this case travel would have to resume by the first available train in order not to count as break of journey (my interpretation).
 
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Greenback

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Surely that's incorrect? The current situation is that the journey must be resumed the next day before 12pm and that any relevant time restrictions still apply. It sounds like they are getting confused with the conditions for day tickets, where an overnight stop when it is impossible to complete the journey in one day is not counted as break of journey - but in this case travel would have to resume by the first available train in order not to count as break of journey (my interpretation).

That is definitely incorrect. The more I read in this thread the more convinced I am that these chanegs are just going to make this worse.

Far from clarifying things, the new wording seems specifically designed to create ambiguity, argument and conflict.
 

sheff1

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That is definitely incorrect. The more I read in this thread the more convinced I am that these chanegs are just going to make this worse.

Far from clarifying things, the new wording seems specifically designed to create ambiguity, argument and conflict.

Exactly.

If ATOC can't even provide an unambiguous answer to a member of staff interested enough to seek clarification, what hope has a passenger got of convincing one of the less informed staff members ?
 

mallard

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The railway rules aren't supposed to be easy to understand!

How would the lawyers make their money if court cases could be settled by a quick reading of the rules?

How would rail staff earn commission if they couldn't cast doubt on the validity of tickets bought in good faith by otherwise law abiding citizens?

The fact that most of the rules that govern the products sold by the railways are kept in a secret manual is quite simply ridiculous and really should be illegal. I'm not sure why it isn't already.
 

Greenback

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The 'manual' is a necessary tool for staff to do their jobs properly. The main problem is the fact that it seems to contain instructions that ar enot made public, inconsistencies and ambiguities.

But then, we shouldn;t rally be surprised by that given the amount of inconsistencies and ambiguities that we see in other publciations that are in the public arena.

In my opinion, there is nothing sinister in these, it is more to do with the complexity of the industry, the number of different departments, companies and individuals involved, and a lack of in depth knowledge on the part of some of the people who are responsible for the publciations.
 

mallard

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The existence of the "manual" isn't the problem. It's the fact that the full terms and conditions of a product sold to the public isn't available to the public that's inexcusable.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....It's the fact that the full terms and conditions of a product sold to the public isn't available to the public that's inexcusable.

Most (if not all) T&Cs are available online through websales (they are required to inform you of the restrictions of the ticket and/or tell you where you can find them, see the NRCoC). If you do not buy online you will be told the restrictions (or how to find them) at the point of sale (or when requested).
 

RJ

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The 'manual' is a necessary tool for staff to do their jobs properly. The main problem is the fact that it seems to contain instructions that ar enot made public, inconsistencies and ambiguities.

The Manual is an advisory service. It does state that local TOC instructions take precedence over what is in there. There are plenty of retail staff who've probably never even been on it.
 

mallard

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Most (if not all) T&Cs are available online through websales (they are required to inform you of the restrictions of the ticket and/or tell you where you can find them, see the NRCoC). If you do not buy online you will be told the restrictions (or how to find them) at the point of sale (or when requested).

Quite. You have to search through multiple sources (NRCoC, Advance Terms and Conditions, TOC T&Cs, Routing Guide (incl. the extensive list of "easements"), etc.) and even then you may not find all the rules that are applied by rail staff.

If you do purchase online (and you should not be penalised for doing so) there is usually no way to see the restrictions associated with a particular ticket, i.e. no way to see the complete contract you are entering into.

e.g. A quick look on the East Coast website shows things like:

East Coast Website said:
If you intend to start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station, please call 08457 48 49 50 to check if it is available on your specific journey.

East Coast Website said:
Off-Peak tickets may require you to travel at specific times of day, days of the week or on a specific route. Website journey planners can tell you when your ticket can be used - simply enter your outward and return journey times to see the trains you can travel on.

Since when was such vague and incomplete information acceptable? No other business keeps such important product information secret! You're entering into a contract, why is the full contract not available to view beforehand?

I know that if you use the National Rail website, it is possible to reveal the validity code, but only if you know where to look. It's not exactly obvious.

Since the railway employs people whose specific job is to catch out people who don't understand the rules (as well as those who wilfully break them, no distinction is made), it seems very unfair to make the rules partially secret and very hard to find/decipher/understand.
 

Greenback

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The existence of the "manual" isn't the problem. It's the fact that the full terms and conditions of a product sold to the public isn't available to the public that's inexcusable.

I think it is more the rather obscure ways that the information is available, and the mistakes and inaccuracies therein contained. There neds to be one place where the customer can go to find all the information they need.

Most (if not all) T&Cs are available online through websales (they are required to inform you of the restrictions of the ticket and/or tell you where you can find them, see the NRCoC). If you do not buy online you will be told the restrictions (or how to find them) at the point of sale (or when requested).

The Manual is an advisory service. It does state that local TOC instructions take precedence over what is in there. There are plenty of retail staff who've probably never even been on it.

I expect there are quite a lot who have never been on it! I know that if I ask at Llanelli station whether I can break my journey overnight at Reading with a London off peak return, I will get different answers depending on who is working at the time! I also know which membe rof staff will give me the right answer!

Since when was such vague and incomplete information acceptable? No other business keeps such important product information secret! You're entering into a contract, why is the full contract not available to view beforehand?

I know that if you use the National Rail website, it is possible to reveal the validity code, but only if you know where to look. It's not exactly obvious.

Since the railway employs people whose specific job is to catch out people who don't understand the rules (as well as those who wilfully break them, no distinction is made), it seems very unfair to make the rules partially secret and very hard to find/decipher/understand.

I'm afraid that this is a consequence of the system. It has become increasingly complex since privatisation, and simplification has made things worse rather than better.

It's a sad fact that the industry is so fragmented that I can't see much hope for us ever having a situation whereby there is one single, definitive source of information for all aspects of rail travel. There are far too many organisations involved. ATOC does not have the manpower or resources to bring everything together, and it's own members contribute to the problem by introducing new restrictions, altering existing restrictions, bringing in new fares, and failing to train or brief front line staff adequately.

The whole thing is a mess, and it's not getting any better.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Quite. You have to search through multiple sources (NRCoC, Advance Terms and Conditions, TOC T&Cs, Routing Guide (incl. the extensive list of "easements"), etc.) and even then you may not find all the rules that are applied by rail staff....

Or you could ask at your local station (if you have one) or, apparently, there is a new fangled device called a 'telephone' that means you can speak to people who aren't in the same room as you (it's witchcraft I tell you!:roll:).

The conditions of the ticket must be available at the time of purchase (or you will be told where to find them). If you are happy to buy the ticket based on that information, that is your choice. I would normally advise people who are told where to find them, to find that information before buying the ticket (I know they won't).

....If you do purchase online (and you should not be penalised for doing so) there is usually no way to see the restrictions associated with a particular ticket, i.e. no way to see the complete contract you are entering into....

I've never bought tickets online, so perhaps I'm not best placed to say, but at the time of sale you should be provided with a tick box and a link to the terms and conditions. The tick box will say something like 'I agree with the terms and conditions'. If you tick it without reading the T&Cs, well, that's your problem.

The link should contain the restrictions or provide a way of getting hold of them. This is before you complete the transaction. If you are not happy with the conditions displayed (or are not happy to buy without the full list) don't buy it until you have that info!

....Since when was such vague and incomplete information acceptable? No other business keeps such important product information secret! You're entering into a contract, why is the full contract not available to view beforehand?....

It's not a secret though is it, it is available, you are either told the information or told how to get it (you may need to follow a link on websites). If you choose not to follow the instructions given or read the information, that is not the railways fault.

I think the passages you quote are quite sensible, they don't overload people with information they don't care to read, but does tell you how to get the information you need. To me that isn't keeping it a secret.

I make a point of telling people the restrictions that are applicable to the ticket and state that if they have any questions they can ask me. That isn't keeping secrets either.

....I know that if you use the National Rail website, it is possible to reveal the validity code, but only if you know where to look. It's not exactly obvious....

It could be easier to find, I'll agree on that point, but it is there. In any case, the National rail site will show if your ticket is available on a service if you put the journey into the journey planner.

....Since the railway employs people whose specific job is to catch out people who don't understand the rules (as well as those who wilfully break them, no distinction is made)....

Staff are not specifically employed to catch people out. Some are employed to ensure the correct fare has been paid (and issue penalty fares where applicable), but that is not the same. Furthermore, if people don't understand or are confused, they can ask about it.

It is often difficult to distinguish between genuine cases and those 'trying it on' (you obviously haven't had to do it) so the same rules are applied to everyone regardless of who they are. Sometimes discretion is shown, perhaps you would prefer this was removed?

.... it seems very unfair to make the rules partially secret and very hard to find/decipher/understand.

So now they are only partially secret? Most T&Cs are simple to understand, like "Valid only with reservations" and "Valid on booked train only", yet these are the ones that are frequently broken. The lesser known ones are less often broken in my experience.
 

mallard

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Or you could ask at your local station (if you have one) or, apparently, there is a new fangled device called a 'telephone' that means you can speak to people who aren't in the same room as you (it's witchcraft I tell you!:roll:).
Have you ever actually tried either of these options? From my experience ticket office staff don't know the answers to any but the most obvious questions. The last time I mentioned the routing guide at one it was clear that the staff member I was talking to had never heard of it. In my area it seems they are trained to push you to buy advance tickets, even when you specifically ask for something else.

I also don't think it's fair to make the customer pay extra (for a phone call) to find out the details of the product they're buying.
The conditions of the ticket must be available at the time of purchase (or you will be told where to find them). If you are happy to buy the ticket based on that information, that is your choice. I would normally advise people who are told where to find them, to find that information before buying the ticket (I know they won't).
The full and complete conditions generally aren't available at the time of purchase. You can't even get a paper copy of the NRCoC from a ticket office these days, let alone the myriad other rules and regulations that your use of the product is subject to. Saying "check this website" or "phone this number" is not good enough.
I've never bought tickets online, so perhaps I'm not best placed to say, but at the time of sale you should be provided with a tick box and a link to the terms and conditions. The tick box will say something like 'I agree with the terms and conditions'. If you tick it without reading the T&Cs, well, that's your problem.
The link should contain the restrictions or provide a way of getting hold of them. This is before you complete the transaction. If you are not happy with the conditions displayed (or are not happy to buy without the full list) don't buy it until you have that info!
Those T&Cs are the conditions of the sale on the website, not the rules and regulations governing the product that you buy.

Since it's actually impossible (some rules are only in the "manual", as are many clarifications and resolutions for conflicting rules) for a customer to get all the information regarding the product, are you recommending that nobody ever buy train tickets?
It's not a secret though is it, it is available, you are either told the information or told how to get it (you may need to follow a link on websites). If you choose not to follow the instructions given or read the information, that is not the railways fault.
The "manual" is secret.
I think the passages you quote are quite sensible, they don't overload people with information they don't care to read, but does tell you how to get the information you need. To me that isn't keeping it a secret.

I make a point of telling people the restrictions that are applicable to the ticket and state that if they have any questions they can ask me. That isn't keeping secrets either.
That's good, providing customers know the questions to ask!
It could be easier to find, I'll agree on that point, but it is there. In any case, the National rail site will show if your ticket is available on a service if you put the journey into the journey planner.
That assumes that every rail passenger is able to say with 100% certainty at the time of enquiry which service they want to use. Not always possible.
Staff are not specifically employed to catch people out. Some are employed to ensure the correct fare has been paid (and issue penalty fares where applicable), but that is not the same.
"Ensure the correct fare has been paid" is the same thing as "catch people who have, deliberately or not, disobeyed the rules".
Furthermore, if people don't understand or are confused, they can ask about it.
Assuming there is a member of staff to ask, who actually knows the answer. Not a given in many circumstances.
It is often difficult to distinguish between genuine cases and those 'trying it on' (you obviously haven't had to do it) so the same rules are applied to everyone regardless of who they are. Sometimes discretion is shown, perhaps you would prefer this was removed?
No, I'd prefer that all the rules were public and simple enough for a mere mortal to understand them.
So now they are only partially secret? Most T&Cs are simple to understand, like "Valid only with reservations" and "Valid on booked train only", yet these are the ones that are frequently broken. The lesser known ones are less often broken in my experience.

Yes, as I've said, the NRCoC, etc. is public, it's the "manual" that isn't. It's the manual that's secret.

Even those quoted T&Cs are not as straight forward as you make out, since tickets governed by them are valid on other trains/without reservations in certain circumstances.
 
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