Bletchleyite
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And modern laptops have battery life that is generally good enough for a train journey of the usual kind of length.
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Plugs, electronic devices and trains
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D365
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Isn't the power socket debate an example of "needs of the few" overruled by "needs of the many"? I.e. reducing track wear by minimising train weight wherever possible, therefore easing maintenance requirements on high-frequency 'metro' trunk routes into the city.
Sales of what is more and more a fashion accessory don't have much to do with the technical efficacy of the products. As has been said here before, Apple is a computer company that tries to make mobile phones.
Metro and suburban commuters are a virtually guaranteed market for London TOCs on infrastructure that is likely to increasingly be the limiting factor on passenger capacity. Given the pseudo-privatisation that was set up in the '90s and the default behaviour of companies that are run for profit, any measures that reduce their costs are there to be used. Those in government who think that the myth of 'competition and choice' will be bought by the population at large are prepared to keep peddling it to the detriment of regular passengers' experience. I don't necessarily agree with that policy.
The railway is beginning to offer e-tickets on portable devices, usually at a reduced price. Paper tickets will be available for the forseeable future, so if those who see new ticket types as a means to reduce the price that they pay, they must be aware of their responsibilities in respect of their ability to prove their right to travel.
Once again, the passenger must obtain devices approriate to their intended use be they fashionable phones or portable chargers. Would they expect a pair of fashionable dress shoes to be suitable for everyday walking long distances over rough surfaces and then complain that the surfaces where they walk aren't suitable for their chosen footwear?
Class377/5
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A question that is being danced around is it the railway place to sort out peoples need to charge devices rather than provide a train service?
As most people on the Desiro City routes have never had plugs and I don't see the massive outrage at not having plugs either. On an intercity I can understand the need but on a mainly commuter route where large numbers of people have come from/going to charging points on either end I don't see the outrage.
But this is the 707 thread and they do have charging points as they are not subject to the same restrictions on weight that the 700s are as SWT do not provide an intensive service like Thameslink will post 2018 on a single section of track. (No the peak into Waterloo does not count as they have the ability to work on the track at weekends, Thameslink will have to completely shut down every time to work on the track so there is a much more significant need to avoid track damage across the board).
As most people on the Desiro City routes have never had plugs and I don't see the massive outrage at not having plugs either. On an intercity I can understand the need but on a mainly commuter route where large numbers of people have come from/going to charging points on either end I don't see the outrage.
But this is the 707 thread and they do have charging points as they are not subject to the same restrictions on weight that the 700s are as SWT do not provide an intensive service like Thameslink will post 2018 on a single section of track. (No the peak into Waterloo does not count as they have the ability to work on the track at weekends, Thameslink will have to completely shut down every time to work on the track so there is a much more significant need to avoid track damage across the board).
Nym
Established Member
If I remember correctly, Siemens Desiro City units use a DC Busbar down the length of the train, and the battery supply is likely to be "110V" DC like most other trains.
S Stock does have an LV AC network for certain auxiliaries (As does most tube stock for that matter). But for differing reasons on different stocks, I certainly wouldn't want to connect any of my equipment to it.
coppercapped
Established Member
What a supercilious attitude. "I use a mobile phone, they use fashion devices..." therefore I hold the moral high ground.
As to your remark about Apple - it's plain wrong and repeating it doesn't make it correct. Apple designs and sells hand-held two-way communications terminals - they communicate using WiFi, Bluetooth, Near Field Communications and the various flavours and generations of GSM and its successors. These terminals can also make phone calls but that is not their primary purpose.
Apple has been remarkably successful at it - it seems that people like 'fashion accessories', rather than the plain 'mobile phones'. People have voted with their wallets - regardless of whether you approve or not. People buying Apple and Android devices - there are other manufacturers - have wiped out Nokia which made 'mobile phones'.
The railways will have to accept that, whether on Class 707s or any other class of train, provision will have to be made for the growth in the use of personal communications devices whether 'the railway' approves of them or not. The world has moved on.
Nokia made smartphones too. Think Series 60, 80 and 90. Remember the Communicator range?
They became complacent and then sold out to the devil, which effectively killed them. But Apple didn't invent the smartphone - it just created a non-geeky, very simplified, device with a capacitive screen (although LG beat them on that too).
I do hate it when history is rewritten. The iPhone is a massive success and nobody can take that away from Apple, but it didn't really invent anything.
They became complacent and then sold out to the devil, which effectively killed them. But Apple didn't invent the smartphone - it just created a non-geeky, very simplified, device with a capacitive screen (although LG beat them on that too).
I do hate it when history is rewritten. The iPhone is a massive success and nobody can take that away from Apple, but it didn't really invent anything.
TheKnightWho
Established Member
How is this relevant? Blaming people for buying a popular product just makes you look arrogant, and it would certainly make the railway look arrogant if they took this attitude.
Apple adherants try to do that all the time.
Deepgreen
Established Member
You've not seen the new Apple iToast, then?!
coppercapped
Established Member
Others may have claimed that Apple invented to smartphone - I never did. In a previous existence part of my job was to test the compatibility of new SIM versions with a range of mobile phones - these included Nokia's Communicator range, Windows Mobile devices and a range of phones from long-forgotten manufacturers such as Alcatel, Siemens, Sendo as well as Nokia.
My point was that Apple's iPhone was, as I wrote, the first commercially successful device - other devices were either complex to use, being based on keyboard input, heavy, limited in their abilities, had short battery life or were horrible to set up to use the data services offered by the networks. None of them had infrastructure support of the quality offered by Apple's on-line 'store'. The number of the early smartphones - from all manufacturers - registered on the German network for whom I worked was, in total, in the order of a couple of per cent of the total customer base. As soon as the iPhone came out, and before it was offered by my network operator or even tested by the lab to make sure it was compatible, people put their existing SIMs in it and within a few months the total being used exceeded all of the other 'smartphones put together.
And if the iPhone is a 'fashion accessory', then so is the Galaxy.
And 'the railway' had better accept that they are here to stay - at least for the next ten years...
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I'll agree that Apple made things mass market, as smartphones were geeky gadgets before that. However I am not sure the relevance now that you've acknowledged smartphones were around for many years before, and Nokia had been about more than just 'mobile phones' before Apple.
Symbian (S60 and UIQ) once had almost 50% marketshare, which was a smart OS with touch screen UI, apps and access to fast 3G data. All before the iPhone hit the scene.
Battery life was therefore already through the floor before 2007 too, bar for those still buying emergency phones for a glovebox. Even 3G feature phones already brought battery life down to one or two days, from one or two weeks previously.
Symbian (S60 and UIQ) once had almost 50% marketshare, which was a smart OS with touch screen UI, apps and access to fast 3G data. All before the iPhone hit the scene.
Battery life was therefore already through the floor before 2007 too, bar for those still buying emergency phones for a glovebox. Even 3G feature phones already brought battery life down to one or two days, from one or two weeks previously.
cjmillsnun
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At a risk of going further off topic. 3G feature phones were not that popular, and could actually have a decent battery life (I got 4-5 days out of an SE W880i and those things had tiny batteries)
Yes the early 3G feature phones had crappy battery life (The NEC e606 came with 2 batteries because you would struggle to make it through the day with one!)
Nokia's core business was never smartphones. You look at this from a British perspective where Symbian phones were reasonably popular. Nokia's core market for years was Africa. Until Android came along, smartphones were unheard of over there.
To be fair, the first commercially successful smartphone was the Blackberry, and it really had one purpose on top of calls. Email.
Apple's genius has always been and will always be its marketing and software.
They never say they invent something. They say they re-invent it (Branson like PR spin whilst acknowledging that something of that type had been done before)
No one could spin hype like Steve Jobs, and to be fair he insisted that Apple products looked good and were easy to use.
The iPod was far from the first MP3 player, but it was the one that brought it to mass market by putting an intuitive user interface on it. All down to the software making it easy to use, and the hype of Jobs.
The iPad was not the first tablet PC (It had been a dream of Bill Gates for over a decade before the iPad came out and there were windows tablets that ran on Windows 98), but it was the first that was intuitive, yet again good software and Jobsian hype.
It was the same with the iPhone. They got the software right and knew how to push the product.
You have to admire them for it.
Anyway back to class 707s. Personally they can't come soon enough for SWT. The capacity they will give is desperately needed.
Feature phones were very popular, and Nokia sold loads of Series 60 devices (the N95 was one of the most popular models, but there were big successes before).
Africa and emerging markets became a big thing for Nokia, sure, with the Nokia 1-series range, but Europe were buying the 6, 7 and 8-series models in huge numbers, the E-series and Nseries (don't ask why one had a hyphen and the other didn't!) and then you had Sony Ericsson Cybershot and Walkman phones, UIQ devices (P800 came out in 2002, touchscreen UI), and then of course the phones from LG and Samsung - the latter using Symbian too.
Nokia seriously messed up Symbian, and dabbled with other OSes before the iPhone launched (Maemo then Meego or was it vice versa) - but management issues and complacency/arrogance helped seal its fate, especially when they hired Stephen Elop.
All Apple did is create a simple (and it WAS simple - no app store, no cut and paste, no Bluetooth file transfer, no 3G) phone with a killer user experience. A simple layout, capacitive screen with pinch/pull and other cool things that other UIs couldn't offer then (bar one LG phone) that got everyone excited, as it was a smartphone for normal people - not those who had to understand computers.
A policy Apple has continued quite successfully, with most people assuming Apple invented the smartphone. Still, if people want to believe Apple was responsible for killing battery life, who am I to argue?!!
(Apologies for my lack of any attempt to get back on topic!)
Africa and emerging markets became a big thing for Nokia, sure, with the Nokia 1-series range, but Europe were buying the 6, 7 and 8-series models in huge numbers, the E-series and Nseries (don't ask why one had a hyphen and the other didn't!) and then you had Sony Ericsson Cybershot and Walkman phones, UIQ devices (P800 came out in 2002, touchscreen UI), and then of course the phones from LG and Samsung - the latter using Symbian too.
Nokia seriously messed up Symbian, and dabbled with other OSes before the iPhone launched (Maemo then Meego or was it vice versa) - but management issues and complacency/arrogance helped seal its fate, especially when they hired Stephen Elop.
All Apple did is create a simple (and it WAS simple - no app store, no cut and paste, no Bluetooth file transfer, no 3G) phone with a killer user experience. A simple layout, capacitive screen with pinch/pull and other cool things that other UIs couldn't offer then (bar one LG phone) that got everyone excited, as it was a smartphone for normal people - not those who had to understand computers.
A policy Apple has continued quite successfully, with most people assuming Apple invented the smartphone. Still, if people want to believe Apple was responsible for killing battery life, who am I to argue?!!
(Apologies for my lack of any attempt to get back on topic!)
coppercapped
Established Member
Thank you - my point entirely.
And to jonmorris0844's comment - Symbian may have had a 50% market share of its part of the market. But that part of the market was, at the outside, less than a couple of percent of all the devices registered on the German network where I worked. (It is possible to know the type of device which is attached as, every so often as the device asks for network authorisation, the network can demand the equipment's International Mobile Equipment Identity - IMEI - and this can be linked to manufacturer and model. It can also be used to help trace stolen equipment).
I re-iterate. It's not that 'featurephones' or 'smartphones' didn't exist before the iPhone - they obviously did. But they existed in penny numbers compared the 'candy bar', 'flip phones' or 'sliders'. All of them needed their own power supply for charging as they all had (different) proprietary connectors - the de facto standardisation on USB sockets came much, much later. The only common connector they used was either a 13A plug (in the UK) or a Schuko plug on the continent. In those days there might have been a demand for transport operators to supply mains sockets for lap-top users, but there would have been a tiny demand for such power sockets by phone users.
Regarding power and USB sockets in trains. I would suggest that a good compromise might be to offer USB sockets only in trains used for journeys of around 45 or 50 minutes and USB and 13A power sockets - with power draw limited to 100W or so - for journeys longer than that. The rationale being that laptop batteries ought to last for the journey to work and for the journey home, as they probably have been recharged previously - and anyway they now last for several hours - and laptops are less likely to hold the passengers ticket. But if one starts a long(ish) journey with an e-ticket on smartphone which has a partially discharged battery (for whatever reason), the 'the railway' should help its customers and its staff to avoid confrontations about whether or not the passenger has a valid ticket. It's good business sense.
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mbreckers
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I once saw a woman on a class 380 using hair straighteners plugged into the passenger sockets.
Just putting it out there cause no-one actually cares about who uses what type of phone or how successful they were
Just putting it out there cause no-one actually cares about who uses what type of phone or how successful they were
HarleyDavidson
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On the 444 & 450 fleet passengers are for always using the "Not for public use" sockets to power their devices. They should be wary as they don't have surge protection so a power spike will fry their devices.
They can't complain, as it's clearly marked.
They can't complain, as it's clearly marked.
but then do we want (as passengers) to have the most basic, plastic, even "cheapest" trains possible? I doesnt seem to be progression, with technology moving forward and train fares rising, id hope for a few "perks" as a passenger, especially for the longer distance traveller.
I don’t buy the weight argument at all for the Thameslink core. The line includes two airports and all the passenger luggage that entails.
Plug sockets are regularly in use by commuters for laptops and phones. Not everyone has the luxury of a fixed desk job with convenient charging (and certain uses of the iPhone are battery drains - messaging services like whatsapp and Skype, as well as map-services and uber). Given house prices and cross London service, a significant number of commuters aren’t doing short journeys (and that’s before you include the delays…). St A to St P might be a nippy 22 minutes, the rest of us travel further - 47 mins peak from Leagrave to City; closer to an hour on a stopping service. Those that do Bedford or Brighton have even longer journeys. Some of the intercity services on other lines over greater distances actually seem quite quick compared to commuting…
Plug sockets are regularly in use by commuters for laptops and phones. Not everyone has the luxury of a fixed desk job with convenient charging (and certain uses of the iPhone are battery drains - messaging services like whatsapp and Skype, as well as map-services and uber). Given house prices and cross London service, a significant number of commuters aren’t doing short journeys (and that’s before you include the delays…). St A to St P might be a nippy 22 minutes, the rest of us travel further - 47 mins peak from Leagrave to City; closer to an hour on a stopping service. Those that do Bedford or Brighton have even longer journeys. Some of the intercity services on other lines over greater distances actually seem quite quick compared to commuting…
Whats Brighton and Bedford on the fasts? about an hour or so? Is your phone that bad it wont last that long?Even my laptop lasts 5+ hours if just doing documents without playing music or games so why have them?
I think people need to get better equipment, which, if its work, then itll be provided and if work and they dont provide then do your work in time.
coppercapped
Established Member
There are two separate types of equipment under discussion:
(a) laptops and the like
and
(b) mobile phones, especially 'smartphones'.
The issues of power supply for the laptops is, as you point out, becoming less important as battery life is increasing due to the adoption of more energy efficient processors, displays and solid state storage.
The issue of power for users to be able to recharge their smartphones could well become important especially if the travel ticket is stored on the phone.
There are many reasons the passenger may not be able to start the journey with a fully charged battery for either class of device. It could be the end of the day and the passenger has not had a chance to re-charge the device before setting off on the journey. Some, not all, journeys on Thameslink or Crossrail can easily be an hour or more and then, because of an unexpected delay, the battery is flat. Embarrassing...
The additional mass of installing a USB socket at every/most seats in metro/suburban trains is negligible. As is the cost - retail a 250V AC to 5.25v dc 1 amp switched mode power supply with a USB socket costs about £4 each. With 40 seats, and no volume reduction in the price, plus wiring, probably about £500 total extra in a railway carriage which costs £1.5 million.
On TL the lack of tip down tables was to aid boarding and alighting at key stations (namely the core) so having wires would be even messier when the person in the window seat wants to get and pass the person in the aisle seat with food/laptop charging.
The downside is how this ruins it for those going Cambridge to Brighton.
The downside is how this ruins it for those going Cambridge to Brighton.
Although the proportion of those travelling that complete journey is probably miniscule.
Basic consumer-grade power supplies for passenger use would not be installed in a train on safety, reliability or EMC grounds. The installed (hotel) power supplies on a train are suitable for loads that are proven and train controlled such as heating, lighting and passenger used kit such as door openers. The associated wiring for this kit is minimal using power bus-connected auxiliaries, and controlled by can-bus or ethernet connected local controllers. There aren't going to be any passing low voltage domestic-quality ac circuits that anything can just camp onto.
Passenger plug-in devices need dedicated supplies that are immunised against the sort-of large surges that can occur from both traction operation and power switching at section breaks etc..
That is why I previously posted that it would be cheaper for the TOC to issue free portable chargers to regulars.
coppercapped
Established Member
I'm not suggesting that domestic grade equipment should be used - I am quoting it as examples of what the mass and cost of such things actually are instead of some of the inflated suggestions which have been posted. Domestic equipment does have to meet EMC and safety standards as well - it's just that the equipment is not laid out to cover industrial strength physical abuse. Industrial grade equivalents of these things (13A outlets and USB-type power supplies) are available - the mass is similar and the costs are not that much higher.
A power conditioner can be fitted to every 13A or USB socket as appropriate and be fed with any ac or dc voltage that is convenient - it doesn't have to be 230v ac. Switched mode power supplies are surprisingly robust.
In the Class 700s and 707s the traction equipment is under the floor and most of the other equipment is fixed in the roof space so it can be reached by maintenance staff working from inside the coach. Separating the circuits to reduce cross-talk is not as difficult as it used to be. It may have been the case when the AM9s were built - but things have moved on since then...
Any '250V AC to 5.25v dc 1 amp switched mode power supply with a USB socket' that is generally available retail, let alone for just £4 is definitely consumer quality and only adequate for operation in the benign environment of an office/domestic 230vac supply. It will of course meet the requirements of EN61000, probably the more specific one for IT kit (EN60950) which will clear it for office/lab/domestic supplies and a digital comms environment. In emissions terms it will probably meet EN55022 but that is hardly an issue as the environment in the train will not only have considerable heavy current interference from traction and OLE switching, but it would seen that almost every passenger will be radiating up to 2W of UHF RF from their phones at times.
The real problem is the surges from the on board ac supplies not only via any direct connection but also from induced current in the wiring.
'Surprisingly Robust' would not get qualification for the installation. There would need to be a defined immunity from surges caused by load dumps in the traction equipment where motor power lifts can be up to 2MW on a 4-car EMU. The surge would appear on any secondary of the main transformer. The train systems, e.g. lighting, doors, heating, comms, PIS, - even wi-fi, would all be designed especially for continuous use in that environment and the system including them qualified before delivery. It would also be re-certified before release from any on-board electrical maintenance. A live railway would not be able to install anything less than kit of that quality however trivial a failure and its consequences was to the main job of running trains. Kit appropriate for on-board use comes at a much higher price than anything that consumers are ever likely to see for sale, and it has to be system engineered into the train's electrical system rather than hanging it on any ac or dc voltage that is convenient. Then comes proving that it is actually OK.
In the Class 700s and 707s the traction equipment is under the floor and most of the other equipment is fixed in the roof space so it can be reached by maintenance staff working from inside the coach. Separating the circuits to reduce cross-talk is not as difficult as it used to be. It may have been the case when the AM9s were built - but things have moved on since then...
As I've said above, emissions requirements, (conducted or radiated) are not likely to be difficult to meet in the heavy industrial environment of a train, its the power surges, mainly conducted via supplies, that will require something more professional to be located and installed in a way that doesn't compromise even that kit's compliant performance.
Ironically, providing relatively clean ac power would probably be easier in some respects on a simple DC motored EMU of the '60s. The transformer was a much heavier iron device, the motors were resistance regulated instead of electronic and currents were about half of present levels, lighting was tungsten and DC power units such as would be used on mobile devices would also have had simple iron-cored transformer/rectifier/capacitor electronics.
When the AM9s were introduced, I was at school, rail tickets were cardboard and the only mobile phones around had two cocoa tins and a piece of string.
but there will be many journeys within that route of decent distance. Brighton to St Pancras for example or even to Farringdon (with is gonna be a pretty useful destination when crossrail is complete) is a long enough journey for these "extras".
The decision has been made so the few that make longer journeys regularily will no doubt make their own arrangements for portable devices. I doubt that they will switch to the roads out of necessity or spite. I think that the clue is in the description 'portable' or 'mobile'. Devices that can be carried between more formal locations tend to be called 'transportable'.
The recent fad for buying phones in which the manufacturer puts style over function has resulted in the rash of devices with inadequate battery life. It looks like the 'new must have' is a better battery life so maybe this problem will fade away soon and certainly within the earliest years of new trains' working lives.
not sure there is much chance of better battery life on the horizon (an improvement in stored energy is still holding back getting electric cars on-massfor example). Id put tables and more comfortable seats over plug sockets anyday but as it is the "in thing" for the next decade id guess.
ANd because of this i think qualifies it a useful addition to any rolling stock. The weight issue on the 700s will go on for ever i suppose.
Oh and yes, the battery life on my old nokia 6310 was amazing compared to these smartphones........but having the internet available is an obvious must these days. (i wish it wasnt to be honest)!
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