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££ Diesel - Price per litre?

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dk1

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Anybody know roughly how much TOCs pay for a litre of diesel at the moment. I dont think they pay any tax & a few years ago i did hear that it was only around 20p.
 
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chuckles1066

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Well the raw product sells for about 45p a litre, once you've added in fuel duty and VAT you get a road pump price of 130p a litre-ish.

I know the tax rate is 168%.
 

miked

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not sure what toc's pay, but red diesel is about 70p a litre at the minute, don't no what taxes ect they'd pay,
 

jopsuk

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Surely like airlines they bulk buy in advance, hedging the prices so as to avoid being affected by fluctuations?
 

Ivo

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If it's any help, I seem to recall reading a few years ago that at the time Arriva had just secured a contract to pay 42p per litre for their bus operations.
 

Clip

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Surely like airlines they bulk buy in advance, hedging the prices so as to avoid being affected by fluctuations?

Most do as they will know based on previous years usage what they will need for the following year. Problem is is when the price dropped like it did the other year and certain TOCs took a hell of a bashing on it too..
 

Hoyerman

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Rail companies use Red Diesel for all trains - essentially standard Diesel with a red dye additive. This is exactly the same fuel as is used to power many ships, farm tractors and for domestic and industrial heating. This is not subject to anything like the taxation of DERV (Road Diesel) - you may have noticed this if you have oil heating...

There is a fine of several thousand pounds for misuse of this fuel on a public road and you will often see Customs & Excise officers checking trucks and vans around the country - essentially they are looking for the presence of the red dye compounds. Very often red diesel will be either bought or stolen and used as car fuel by "shady characters" or sold to unsuspecting members of the public looking for a bargain...

In the good old days you could remove the dye by filtering the diesel through a loaf of bread - but sadly these days are gone with a change in some of the chemicals used and the detection process!!!

Not sure on current prices as I have been out of the business for a long time, but generally prices were 60-70% lower for red diesel than DERV.

Also don't forget that someone like arriva will be purchasing several million litres in one transaction - rather than the 40-50 you would need to fill your car or the 2000 to fill your home heating tank - so this impacts the price again!

Cheers
H
 

Mvann

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When I was a volunteer at the welsh highland railway, they were getting high sulphur marine diesel for the garretts at 16p a litre, but that was in 2001. Prices have virtually doubled in the last 5 years.
 

jopsuk

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Problem is is when the price dropped like it did the other year and certain TOCs took a hell of a bashing on it too..
That's part of the negotiation- and it isn't really a bashing as they already have figured the costs into their financial planning- rather, it's a windfall for their supplier- much like a spike is a bashing for the supplier.
 

chuckles1066

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not sure what toc's pay, but red diesel is about 70p a litre at the minute, don't no what taxes ect they'd pay,

On a pump price (road) of 128p per litre, the breakdown is

raw product 47.72p
fuel duty 58.95p
VAT 21.33p

Red diesel attracts a duty of 11.33p per litre (and then presumably VAT).
 

TDK

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Anybody know roughly how much TOCs pay for a litre of diesel at the moment. I dont think they pay any tax & a few years ago i did hear that it was only around 20p.

At the moment it is about 70p per litre I belive - the price fluctuates directly with the crude oil prices and does not change like the diesel you buy at the pumps
 

dk1

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At the moment it is about 70p per litre I belive - the price fluctuates directly with the crude oil prices and does not change like the diesel you buy at the pumps

Bargain!! No point eco-driving then ;)
 

Zoe

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Bargain!! No point eco-driving then
Is eco-driving a consideration for TOCs? As many timetables have quite a bit of padding, you could drive at a slower speed and still arrive on time.
 

dk1

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Is eco-driving a consideration for TOCs? As many timetables have quite a bit of padding, you could drive at a slower speed and still arrive on time.

It's starting to be. We are asked to avoid going beyond notch 5 on sprinter type units where possible without causing delay. Gets boring though. Dont know anyone who eco-drives on their last bit, thrash!!
 

Zoe

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It's starting to be. We are asked to avoid going beyond notch 5 on sprinter type units where possible without causing delay. Gets boring though. Dont know anyone who eco-drives on their last bit, thrash!!
Just wait until they start putting electricity meters in trains. NR could then charge for the electricity used.
 

dk1

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Just wait until they start putting electricity meters in trains. NR could then charge for the electricity used.

Already do. We get awards for drivers who use least amount of electricity on a journey without losing time. All part of remote monitoring.
 

Zoe

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Already do. We get awards for drivers who use least amount of electricity on a journey without losing time. All part of remote monitoring.
Do all trains have meters then?
 

dk1

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Do all trains have meters then?

Many do now. I would imagine trains like all singing all dancing Pendos do. I think LM are now doing same with their emu fleet. NXEA are doing pretty well with all types of remote monitoring. A couple of weeks ago i met up with a mate from the depot for a cuppa & told him i'd had a general fault light briefly before leaving Liverpool St. He told me he knew & that i had pressed pan-up/reset within 4 seconds!!
 

Clip

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That's part of the negotiation- and it isn't really a bashing as they already have figured the costs into their financial planning- rather, it's a windfall for their supplier- much like a spike is a bashing for the supplier.

Not with all Tocs. Theres one i know of that took a hell of a bashing on it and ended up with them having a very low set of figures and IIRC helped them to an overall loss that year.
 

jrhilton

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IIRC Virgin put one in a Pendo last year, to see accurately how much NR were charging them for the electricity and to see if usage was correct.

I would have thought it was to just see how much energy a train was using and compare it to estimated consumption calculated by TABS, not anything to do with the price. Virgin are part of the ATOC EC4T price setting agreement, and NRIL send them a bill each month with the consumption calculated by TABS using the appropriate billing rate, which they can request calculations for. The process (apparent from the TABS consumption part) is transparent and the whole process is something TOCS are very hot on.

Not much they can do in the short run other than challenge the consumption figure being applied by TABS, complain about transmission losses, or the favoured approach of not believing anything TABS outputs.

In the longer run they can request that NRIL have Atkins model a new consumption rate though.

Diesel doesn't have these problems, though it is fun when it comes to stocktake time...

It is my understanding that all modern EMUs have some form of metering built in to the power regulation equipment/software, not all TOCs opt to pay extra for access to the data either by way of a readout in the cab, or data logging facilities though.
 
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TDK

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Many do now. I would imagine trains like all singing all dancing Pendos do. I think LM are now doing same with their emu fleet. NXEA are doing pretty well with all types of remote monitoring. A couple of weeks ago i met up with a mate from the depot for a cuppa & told him i'd had a general fault light briefly before leaving Liverpool St. He told me he knew & that i had pressed pan-up/reset within 4 seconds!!

Trains have had power consumption monitoring equipment for quite a while and also fule flow on Diesels it's called OTMR - The OTMR does not only monitor what the driver does it also monitors what the train does as well.
 

dk1

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Trains have had power consumption monitoring equipment for quite a while and also fule flow on Diesels it's called OTMR - The OTMR does not only monitor what the driver does it also monitors what the train does as well.

Yeah OTMR is old hat but no longer the need to come to the train for a download. That info is available real time from any PC.
 

Dolive22

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The VAT is not only applied to the raw product but also to the fuel duty, it taxes a tax.

Taxing a tax is not uncommon. The cost of the fuel being delivered, which goes on the price and is subject to VAT, includes the drivers pay and therefore their employers NI, and arguably their employee NI and Income Tax because they could get away with paying less if it wasn't there, as well as the fuel duty for the tankers, so on a small part you pay VAT on the VAT on the Fuel Duty for the tanker.

I thought TOCs paid for the leccy based on a formula that was part of the track access charges they pay to Network Rail.
 

142094

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I would have thought it was to just see how much energy a train was using and compare it to estimated consumption calculated by TABS, not anything to do with the price. Virgin are part of the ATOC EC4T price setting agreement, and NRIL send them a bill each month with the consumption calculated by TABS using the appropriate billing rate, which they can request calculations for. The process (apparent from the TABS consumption part) is transparent and the whole process is something TOCS are very hot on.

Not much they can do in the short run other than challenge the consumption figure being applied by TABS, complain about transmission losses, or the favoured approach of not believing anything TABS outputs.

In the longer run they can request that NRIL have Atkins model a new consumption rate though.

Diesel doesn't have these problems, though it is fun when it comes to stocktake time...

It is my understanding that all modern EMUs have some form of metering built in to the power regulation equipment/software, not all TOCs opt to pay extra for access to the data either by way of a readout in the cab, or data logging facilities though.

Can't remember where I read it but it was looking at how much it used, and also to see if they were paying the correct amount for usage to NR. I'm sure there was also something about how Pendos return energy back to the grid through regenerative braking but I can't remember what they were looking at in that case.
 
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