£10 Admin Fees: Bogus or not?

[GaryMcEwan]

On the subject of refunds, Interesting how a company may try and fob a customer off if the customer complains and wants their money back... However raise a chargeback dispute and they back down much quicker.

I am not saying they will not make representations to the bank, but it seems like a more fair playing field.

Who makes the final decision with chargeback? Is it ultimately the customers bank who can take money back from the retailer (if so there's a lot of risk involved in accepting card payments).

It's not even the company, it's the companies merchant bank that send it back to the original bank that the payment came from. I

t's even better if the payment is over £100 and you put it on your credit card, that way you can invoke Section 75 and both parties (TOC and Credit Card Provider) are 100% responsible. I buy my monthly season's using my credit card just for the fact that I'm protected by Section 75.

 

[bb21]

For online transactions, the cost is pence. You're looking at the cost of the card interchange fee and that's about it. Everything else is automated. The credit card interchange fee is 0.3%, so for a £300 ticket it is a massive 91p. Let's be charitable and assume that the bank fees and assorted costs take that to an overall 1%. So for a £300 ticket bought online you're looking at £3. For the most expensive walk-up ticket available (Wick-Penzance 1st Anytime return) it would be £8.04.

A manual refund done at a ticket office would cost a bit more. Let's be generous and say a refund will take 12 minutes to process and a clerk earns £15 per hour. That's an extra £3 to factor in there.

Let's not be coy here. TOCs charge this £10 fee simply because they can. Let's not insult our intelligence by claiming that the cost of refunds is anywhere near £10, unless you're in the subset of people who routinely buy Wick-Penzance 1st Anytime returns in cash at a ticket office and then want a refund a few days later.

Which would be fine - except you don't charge a £10 fee to people buying a ticket. So it isn't being shared between users of the system. Of course, the counter to that will be that it is built into the cost of the ticket, well I wonder how much of a £7.90 Bath Spa to Bristol off peak day return goes to the cost of developing and maintaining the system?

Again I would have to refer the honourable members back to Post 50. I did not say the fee is wholly for covering the costs, just that the costs are not as minuscule as made out.

 

[bb21]

Let's put it this way then, a customer wants to withdraw £300 cash from the counter at the bank, and the teller takes £10 as an admin fee for the customer taking it out via the teller rather than an ATM, could you imagine the uproar? I'd love to know how much the TOCs make a year on the back of their £10 'admin' fees...

What relevance does that have?

 

[Hadders]

Let's put it this way then, a customer wants to withdraw £300 cash from the counter at the bank, and the teller takes £10 as an admin fee for the customer taking it out via the teller rather than an ATM, could you imagine the uproar? I'd love to know how much the TOCs make a year on the back of their £10 'admin' fees...

A poor example. Happens all the time with ATMs that change a fee to withdraw cash.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

What relevance does that have?

Let's try another one, I've just cancelled an order for a Samsung Dex docking station from Amazon as the design layout of it is appalling. Amazon didn't charge me a £10 admin fee to cancel, in fact they didn't charge me anything and got my money back within 2 days. If I cancel my travel plans for whatever reason, I fully expect to get the value of what I paid back. Simple as that.

You may not agree with it but TOCs have a certain responsibility and if they are going to act stupidly, then they are going to be dealt with stupidly.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

A poor example. Happens all the time with ATMs that change a fee to withdraw cash.

An example none the less...

 

[AlterEgo]

Let's put it this way then, a customer wants to withdraw £300 cash from the counter at the bank, and the teller takes £10 as an admin fee for the customer taking it out via the teller rather than an ATM, could you imagine the uproar? I'd love to know how much the TOCs make a year on the back of their £10 'admin' fees...

Not sure what your point is when talking about abusing the chargeback process.

There are already banks that have even banned large cash transactions over the counter without prior notice.

My point is simply that the chargeback process protects you against contractual wrong. What it doesn’t do it protect you against TnCs you agreed to but don’t like and I am simply pointing this out. No more and no less.

 

[AlterEgo]

Let's try another one, I've just cancelled an order for a Samsung Dex docking station from Amazon as the design layout of it is appalling. Amazon didn't charge me a £10 admin fee to cancel, in fact they didn't charge me anything and got my money back within 2 days. If I cancel my travel plans for whatever reason, I fully expect to get the value of what I paid back. Simple as that.

But this isn’t what the law says, nor is it reasonable to expect to be entitled to a refund on something you know full well is non-refundable, and cheaper anyway due to the fact you restricted yourself.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Not sure what your point is when talking about abusing the chargeback process.

There are already banks that have even banned large cash transactions over the counter without prior notice.

My point is simply that the chargeback process protects you against contractual wrong. What it doesn’t do it protect you against TnCs you agreed to but don’t like and I am simply pointing this out. No more and no less.

I'm not abusing it at all, in fact it hold companies to account when they try and pull a fast one. That's why I read T&Cs with a fine toothcomb and find the loopholes. I'm only exposing their faults and tough if they don't like it, that's not my concern.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not abusing it at all, in fact it hold companies to account when they try and pull a fast one. That's why I read T&Cs with a fine toothcomb and find the loopholes. I'm only exposing their faults and tough if they don't like it, that's not my concern.

It doesn’t hold companies to account in this way and you should stop trying to assert that it does. It doesn’t offer protection against terms and conditions you don’t like.

When you buy a train ticket and they say “this isn’t refundable” or “it is refundable but it will cost you £10”, and then they follow through on that when you ask for a refund, this isn’t “pulling a fast one”. You might not like it, but it isn’t “pulling a fast one”.

To be clear, a chargeback may only be made when goods or services aren’t delivered, are delivered but are not as described, the seller stops trading or where the goods are damaged.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

It doesn’t hold companies to account in this way and you should stop trying to assert that it does. It doesn’t offer protection against terms and conditions you don’t like.

When you buy a train ticket and they say “this isn’t refundable” or “it is refundable but it will cost you £10”, and then they follow through on that when you ask for a refund, this isn’t “pulling a fast one”. You might not like it, but it isn’t “pulling a fast one”.

To be clear, a chargeback may only be made when goods or services aren’t delivered, are delivered but are not as described, the seller stops trading or where the goods are damaged.

So the majority of the last bit then applies 100% to Scotrail...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let's put it this way then, a customer wants to withdraw £300 cash from the counter at the bank, and the teller takes £10 as an admin fee for the customer taking it out via the teller rather than an ATM, could you imagine the uproar?

I am broadly in favour of that kind of charge (though I would consider £10 a bit steep for it), and indeed bank with a bank that has (a) no branches, and (b) does not allow you to do via the call centre any task you can do yourself on the website.

The outcome of this is that the call centre is smaller but higher skilled, with the "drone reading off a screen I could read off myself" level removed.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But this isn’t what the law says, nor is it reasonable to expect to be entitled to a refund on something you know full well is non-refundable, and cheaper anyway due to the fact you restricted yourself.

The law does in fact provide for a refund in those circumstances, with some exceptions. See the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. Contracts concluded by means of distance communications (e.g. internet) can (with exceptions) be cancelled and reversed at the consumer's behest within 14 calendar days.

Some of the excepted services/contracts include (non-inclusive list):

- Services wholly performed within the 14 days, with the consumer's express agreement in advance
- Transport services
- Hotel/B&B services
- Certain financial services
- Newspapers
- Perishable items

Deductions may be made from appropriate refunds in respect of amounts such as (non-exclusive list):

- Any additional amounts paid for premium delivery services above the cost of the cheapest delivery method
- Any amounts paid or costs incurred by the trader (retailer) to enable the return of any sent goods
- Any damage/deterioration to any sent goods beyond what a typical inspection in a shop would have caused

So therefore in the case of an electronic gadget ordered on Amazon, you clearly have a right to cancel the order for a full refund (with possible deductions as above) within 14 days (Amazon goes beyond this and gives you 30 days iirc).

Unfortunately, as travel services are excepted, TOCs remain free to charge arbitrary and hugely profitable 'administration' fees, limited only by the NRCoT and the DfT really.

I can tell that this is a rather more complicated matter than I had originally suggested, but the idea of a fixed fee of £10 is still absurd to me, especially in the context I gave of tickets that hadn't even been printed yet. A percentage-based fee of say 5-15%, capped at £10 would seem fairer. I don't think Southern's system of not charging anything is fair on the actual fare-payer, as they are paying for someone else's changes, but neither do I think it fair for companies to profit out of cancellations. Perhaps there should be various percentages, depending on the administration and cost incurred for the refund, e.g. if cancelled when no human contact has been involved and tickets haven't yet been printed, the fee is 5%. If tickets have been printed but no human contact still, the fee is 10%. If tickets printed and human contact, the fee is 15%.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I can see an argument in favour of a different fee where tickets have been printed, as there is more cost there too.

 

[AlterEgo]

The law does in fact provide for a refund in those circumstances, with some exceptions. See the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. Contracts concluded by means of distance communications (e.g. internet) can (with exceptions) be cancelled and reversed at the consumer's behest within 14 calendar days.

As you point out, later in your post, it doesn’t provide for a refund in those circumstances. Transport services are excepted. That’s that.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

As you point out, later in your post, it doesn’t provide for a refund in those circumstances. Transport services are excepted. That’s that.

Uh, I was replying to your comment which was replying to:

Let's try another one, I've just cancelled an order for a Samsung Dex docking station from Amazon as the design layout of it is appalling. Amazon didn't charge me a £10 admin fee to cancel, in fact they didn't charge me anything and got my money back within 2 days.

So as said - Amazon has to be refundable, train fares don't have to be (but can be).

 

[philthetube]

For online transactions, the cost is pence. You're looking at the cost of the card interchange fee and that's about it. Everything else is automated. The credit card interchange fee is 0.3%, so for a £300 ticket it is a massive 91p. Let's be charitable and assume that the bank fees and assorted costs take that to an overall 1%. So for a £300 ticket bought online you're looking at £3. For the most expensive walk-up ticket available (Wick-Penzance 1st Anytime return) it would be £8.04.

A manual refund done at a ticket office would cost a bit more. Let's be generous and say a refund will take 12 minutes to process and a clerk earns £15 per hour. That's an extra £3 to factor in there.

Let's not be coy here. TOCs charge this £10 fee simply because they can. Let's not insult our intelligence by claiming that the cost of refunds is anywhere near £10, unless you're in the subset of people who routinely buy Wick-Penzance 1st Anytime returns in cash at a ticket office and then want a refund a few days later.

Please don't offer me a job, no hols, no toilet breaks no training no uniform, no heat in the office etc. This statement just goes to demonstrate how much more expensive it is to deal with customer issues than it appears on the surface.

If you look at online transactions plenty issues to sort there as well including checking the issued ticket cannot be used, and other security measures to prevent fraud, I don't need to go on.

 

[AlterEgo]

Uh, I was replying to your comment which was replying to:



So as said - Amazon has to be refundable, train fares don't have to be (but can be).

I was replying to: “If I cancel my travel plans for whatever reason, I fully expect to get the value of what I paid back. Simple as that.”

As I pointed out, that isn’t what the law says. I wasn’t challenging the fact you can get a refund from Amazon.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I was replying to: “If I cancel my travel plans for whatever reason, I fully expect to get the value of what I paid back. Simple as that.”

As I pointed out, that isn’t what the law says. I wasn’t challenging the fact you can get a refund from Amazon.

Misunderstanding resolved

 

[LAX54]

The law does in fact provide for a refund in those circumstances, with some exceptions. See the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. Contracts concluded by means of distance communications (e.g. internet) can (with exceptions) be cancelled and reversed at the consumer's behest within 14 calendar days.

Some of the excepted services/contracts include (non-inclusive list):

- Services wholly performed within the 14 days, with the consumer's express agreement in advance
- Transport services
- Hotel/B&B services
- Certain financial services
- Newspapers
- Perishable items

Deductions may be made from appropriate refunds in respect of amounts such as (non-exclusive list):

- Any additional amounts paid for premium delivery services above the cost of the cheapest delivery method
- Any amounts paid or costs incurred by the trader (retailer) to enable the return of any sent goods
- Any damage/deterioration to any sent goods beyond what a typical inspection in a shop would have caused

So therefore in the case of an electronic gadget ordered on Amazon, you clearly have a right to cancel the order for a full refund (with possible deductions as above) within 14 days (Amazon goes beyond this and gives you 30 days iirc).

Unfortunately, as travel services are excepted, TOCs remain free to charge arbitrary and hugely profitable 'administration' fees, limited only by the NRCoT and the DfT really.

I can tell that this is a rather more complicated matter than I had originally suggested, but the idea of a fixed fee of £10 is still absurd to me, especially in the context I gave of tickets that hadn't even been printed yet. A percentage-based fee of say 5-15%, capped at £10 would seem fairer. I don't think Southern's system of not charging anything is fair on the actual fare-payer, as they are paying for someone else's changes, but neither do I think it fair for companies to profit out of cancellations. Perhaps there should be various percentages, depending on the administration and cost incurred for the refund, e.g. if cancelled when no human contact has been involved and tickets haven't yet been printed, the fee is 5%. If tickets have been printed but no human contact still, the fee is 10%. If tickets printed and human contact, the fee is 15%.

Amazon don't exactly go beyond, under the distance selling rules, you can return for a refund in 28 / 30 days.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Amazon don't exactly go beyond, under the distance selling rules, you can return for a refund in 28 / 30 days.

It's 14 days - see Regulation 30(2) of the CC(ICAC)Rs 1013.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Please don't offer me a job, no hols, no toilet breaks no training no uniform, no heat in the office etc.

You have all those things regardless of whether you're sat there doing a refund, selling a ticket, or picking fluff out of your belly button.

The only cost to the refund process is the lost productivity.

 

[cuccir]

Am I correct in thinking that the cost is also currently £10 per ticket, rather than priced per transaction? If it is, this also seems unfair as the cost of multiple refunds at once must be lower than processing individual refunds.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Am I correct in thinking that the cost is also currently £10 per ticket, rather than priced per transaction? If it is, this also seems unfair as the cost of multiple refunds at once must be lower than processing individual refunds.

Depends where you are getting the refund from the instruction is very wooly, remember this dates back to the halcyon days of BR when it was many times more difficult to get a refund. Basically you had to have a Doctors letter or a letter from a car driver if you claimed you went by car instead.

 

[Puffing Devil]

At the risk of being unpopular, the £10 fee does not seem unreasonable to me for returned paper tickets. This is probably a close approximation to the costs of providing the service - it's not just the wages - there's the office, computing facilities, management time, insurances and many other costs to be included. These are all fixed costs and are not in proportion to the ticket value, meaning a fixed fee is perhaps the fairest way of charging.

Returning an uncollected/unprinted ticket is another matter - there is the cost of writing and maintaining the part of the IT system to permit this, though it is part of a larger system. There are also the finance costs for processing the payment refund. Perhaps a % fee is reasonable here, without a maximum, unless the payment processors have a cap on their fees.

 

[beeza1]

Would it not make more sense to remove the ridiculous date restrictions on tickets, especially on the outbound part, I could then buy a return ticket from A to B valid for say, 3 months, date stamp it on the outbound leg, return within a month of that date, obviously normal restrictions would apply regarding times. Admittedly ticket checks would have to be more thorough than at present.
It would remove the need to have to alter your ticket if you have to change your travel plans.
I do agree there should be a charge if you want a refund, maybe around 10% with a cap of £10, except in the event of cancellation, when a full refund should be given.

 

[Llanigraham]

Do people realise that asking for this fee to be a percentage would probably result in more work.

 

[Hadders]

Would it not make more sense to remove the ridiculous date restrictions on tickets, especially on the outbound part, I could then buy a return ticket from A to B valid for say, 3 months, date stamp it on the outbound leg, return within a month of that date, obviously normal restrictions would apply regarding times. Admittedly ticket checks would have to be more thorough than at present.
It would remove the need to have to alter your ticket if you have to change your travel plans.
I do agree there should be a charge if you want a refund, maybe around 10% with a cap of £10, except in the event of cancellation, when a full refund should be given.

How are you going to check tickets thoroughly on a wedged 12-car train during the peaks? If tickets are valid for 3 months many will just travel with what is in effect a 3 month season ticket.

As for dating tickets when you use them take a look at the regular threads we get on here about carnet tickets.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

How are you going to check tickets thoroughly on a wedged 12-car train during the peaks? If tickets are valid for 3 months many will just travel with what is in effect a 3 month season ticket.

As for dating tickets when you use them take a look at the regular threads we get on here about carnet tickets.

I think a perhaps better alternative would be to be able to order a flexible ticket and then have the option to make it become valid upon collection (obviously still retaining the current system of fixed validity). This would give extra flexibility to those who know they will need to travel X times in the coming days/weeks/months but who don't know exactly when.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How are you going to check tickets thoroughly on a wedged 12-car train during the peaks? If tickets are valid for 3 months many will just travel with what is in effect a 3 month season ticket.

As for dating tickets when you use them take a look at the regular threads we get on here about carnet tickets.

I am not clear why compostage (self-stamping) would require more checks. It would just require stamping machines prior to the barriers which would stamp the date and write it to the magstripe. If you don't stamp, the barriers won't open.

Compostage is used successfully in many countries and has been for years.