£1000 bill for travelling on Virgin Trains on a 'LM only' ticket.

[muz379]

In my opinion, all this talk of 'complicated' tickets stems from people buying the cheapest possible ticket from the TVM or not telling the TO staff what they actually want!

Ticketing can be very easy indeed (just buy an expensive ticket) but if you want to make it as cheap as posible then it can get very complicated indeed, and of course everything in between!

I couldn't have said it better myself . People want their ticket to be as cheap as possible but also as unrestricted as possible . Unfortunately you cant have your cake and eat it . Either you just have a very basic ticketing system . Or you let tocs compete with each other but have restrictions

Well they will still end up with the price of the ticket that they would correctly have bought for their journey. Do you think they should get more because a passenger changes their mind?



In what sort of business is that a reason not to do it? An exploitative and manipulative one.

This viewpoint is a perfect argument for nationalisation, the railway being run in a way that is against the interest of passengers in order to take more money.

The passenger does pay the same price yes if the toc specific fare is excessed .

However the TOC might not get the revenue that is rightfully theirs .
And despite what many may believe renationalisation is not happening any time soon so we are stuck with the system we have at the moment where different tocs do exist . And they do have bills to pay to keep their trains running , and god forbid they should make a tiny bit of profit as well .

 

[Starmill]

Well you may have a point there, I don't know. I'm a savvy passenger who is not going to get caught out by the restrictions or need to excess, I was just arguing for a bit more of what I thought was common sense that might also improve PR somewhat, but it is clearly not to be. I've no wish to start a nationalisation debate which I am clearly very realistic about.

I agree the system should not be one-sided, but there are few industries where it is so one sided towards a firm rather than its customers. If that's the way they are going to make money then so be it. Who am I to want to stop them? It's simply the market at work, and only the government can alter the market. There doesn't seem to be any appetite for that either. So those of us in the know will go on getting the good deals and in some cases paying very little indeed for our fares, while all out refusing to pay the high fares some TOCs want by not travelling with them. I'll learn to drive, get a car and make journeys that are made difficult by TOCs that way instead. I guess that's inevitable unless I move to London. Or I could become a member of railway staff and might be able to afford to get around that way, but the chances of that are probably even less than me moving to London. At least that's better than not being in the know and booking a very expensive Anytime Return somewhere on thetrainline.

 

[yorkie]

However the TOC might not get the revenue that is rightfully theirs . .

Out of interest, did you read this?

And before anyone goes on about revenue allocation, that's a red herring as an excess of a "Route via High Wycombe" ticket wouldn't re-allocate the revenue allocation for the original ticket held, and yet if someone goes to Euston ticket office and says they want to go via High Wycombe one way, and via MKC the other way, that is exactly what they'd be sold..

And another example: a Huntingdon to Peterborough Season ticket holder can buy a CDR from Huntingdon to London, travel on EC, and EC do not get much - if any - revenue for that.

 

[Haywain]

It's simply the market at work, and only the government can alter the market.

Simply not true. The government can alter the terms of the market in a regulated industry, but it is driven by the suppliers (TOCs) and consumers. The consumers have an option to stop buying something if they don't like it, but these days they seem mostly driven by price and ignore the fact that more onerous conditions may be the result of a low price.

As I said, the government can alter the market, but as they have made very clear that they want those who use rail services to pay a larger share of the costs it is not likely to lead to any benefits for the consumers - and overall, no real benefits for the TOCs either.

 

[muz379]

Out of interest, did you read this?

And another example: a Huntingdon to Peterborough Season ticket holder can buy a CDR from Huntingdon to London, travel on EC, and EC do not get much - if any - revenue for that.

Im aware that in some cases revenue allocation is not as straight forward , but in other cases it is straight forward . If someone has a tpe advance ticket from Manchester to leeds but boards a northern service to make the journey then who gets the revenue from that ticket ?

I agree the system should not be one-sided, but there are few industries where it is so one sided towards a firm rather than its customers. If that's the way they are going to make money then so be it. Who am I to want to stop them? It's simply the market at work, and only the government can alter the market. There doesn't seem to be any appetite for that either. So those of us in the know will go on getting the good deals and in some cases paying very little indeed for our fares, while all out refusing to pay the high fares some TOCs want by not travelling with them. I'll learn to drive, get a car and make journeys that are made difficult by TOCs that way instead. I guess that's inevitable unless I move to London. Or I could become a member of railway staff and might be able to afford to get around that way, but the chances of that are probably even less than me moving to London. At least that's better than not being in the know and booking a very expensive Anytime Return somewhere on thetrainline.

Id Disagree I think a lot of industries are very one sided , look at insurance , banking , retail , airline & holidays ,telecoms ,energy .just to name a few . I think the market and regulation in its current form does very little to protect consumers with a lots of very weak ombudsman . However that is a discussion for an entirely different thread , and one like you I am not particularly interested in getting into because I am realistic in that things are not going to drastically change all of a sudden .

You dont have to be in the know to get good fairs , and you dont have to be in the know to not get caught out . Before I Started working on the railway I didn't really know that much about the industry . And never used to use the railway that frequently . Probably about 5 or 6 times a year . When I did use it I used to book my tickets well in advance and use to get what I perceived to be very good advance fares . I remember one occasion for example I booked an advance from Manchester to Edinburgh on TPE for £24 pounds . This to me represents very good value . I certainly couldn't drive to Edinburgh for £24 and whilst I could travel on a coach for cheaper (I have) the coach journey is a lot longer than the train journey .Similarly I have to/from Leeds countless times for between £7-£12 , I even traveled first class from Leeds once for £14 . This to me again represents good value for money I couldn't make that journey for less than that in a car , and even by coach I would be pushing it . Did I ever fall short and get "caught" out by tocs when making these journeys . No because as far as I am aware the terms of these tickets are pretty simple , you travel on the train that you have booked to travel on , and you have no problems . If that train gets cancelled then you go and find the staff at the station and find out what you are to do . So I dont even think that everyone that is not in the Know gets ripped off or gets a harsh deal .

 

[Clip]

In my opinion, all this talk of 'complicated' tickets stems from people buying the cheapest possible ticket from the TVM or not telling the TO staff what they actually want!

Ticketing can be very easy indeed (just buy an expensive ticket) but if you want to make it as cheap as posible then it can get very complicated indeed, and of course everything in between!

Oh come on didnt you know you can travel across teh whole of Europe in 1st class for 2 euro and still have change for a 3 course meal on board?

Of course that would be the same europe where many countries dont have ticket offices at every station and just use machines/validators yet mention closure of ticket offices and the place erupts like mount Etna

but lts gt all misty eyed for the days of BR, which of course was only in existence for a third or more of the railways life in this country but it was soooo much better as you could get a sleeper return for a shilling behind a nice big fat steam train.

 

[Flamingo]

Oh come on didnt you know you can travel across teh whole of Europe in 1st class for 2 euro and still have change for a 3 course meal on board?

Of course that would be the same europe where many countries dont have ticket offices at every station and just use machines/validators yet mention closure of ticket offices and the place erupts like mount Etna

but lts gt all misty eyed for the days of BR, which of course was only in existence for a third or more of the railways life in this country but it was soooo much better as you could get a sleeper return for a shilling behind a nice big fat steam train.

And of course, nobody ever got prosecuted for fare evasion before 1996...

 

[Deerfold]

Out of interest, did you read this?

And another example: a Huntingdon to Peterborough Season ticket holder can buy a CDR from Huntingdon to London, travel on EC, and EC do not get much - if any - revenue for that.

The difference is that Advances have been specifically created for the purpose of having revenue attributed soley to the company(ies) named in the route and getting people onto their trains.. Your example is one that has happened by chance.

 

[Crossover]

He tells me he likes buses, he has a card these days but before then the bus turned up, he paid the driver, and got where he wanted to go.
Kind of, er, easy.

I'm afraid I don't buy the "bus is easier" arguement - it is quite possible to purchase a fare (usually a day ranger) for a bus that is valid on one operators services only (even the single ticket prices between the two can vary wildly)
Where I live we have Yorkshire Tiger and Arriva. A recent occurence is what has reminded me of this as a family member was telling me the other day that Yorkshire Tiger have borrowed one of the Arriva vehicles, and as a result, Yorkshire Tiger are accepting Arriva passes when using this vehicle

 

[Deerfold]

I'm afraid I don't buy the "bus is easier" arguement - it is quite possible to purchase a fare (usually a day ranger) for a bus that is valid on one operators services only (even the single ticket prices between the two can vary wildly)
Where I live we have Yorkshire Tiger and Arriva. A recent occurence is what has reminded me of this as a family member was telling me the other day that Yorkshire Tiger have borrowed one of the Arriva vehicles, and as a result, Yorkshire Tiger are accepting Arriva passes when using this vehicle

That's a particularly fun one - as Yorkshire Tiger is 100% owned by Arriva - they just keep it quiet and don't generally accept tickets between the two.

 

[Clip]

And of course, nobody ever got prosecuted for fare evasion before 1996...

Well we all know penalty fares and the bylaws and prosecution was only ever brought in then to line the fat cat TOC owners pockets.

r

 

[Starmill]

Yorkshire Tiger are now owned entirely by Arriva.

I'm afraid my opinion of those of you arguing it's easy to understand these restrictions, even if you have never travelled in that area by rail before, is that you don't have a clue how normal passengers see things. The quality of output provided by websites and ticket offices all to often falls well short of what would be required to enable the passengers to understand. For so many routes these days you will, if not 'in the know' be painfully ripped off.

 

[Clip]

Nope Im sure myself and flamingo and others have no idea about how passengers see things even though we see them every single day and listen to them. Week in week out.

 

[muz379]

Yorkshire Tiger are now owned entirely by Arriva.

I'm afraid my opinion of those of you arguing it's easy to understand these restrictions, even if you have never travelled in that area by rail before, is that you don't have a clue how normal passengers see things. The quality of output provided by websites and ticket offices all to often falls well short of what would be required to enable the passengers to understand. For so many routes these days you will, if not 'in the know' be painfully ripped off.

I can surely hazard a guess though that because nowhere near the majority of "normal" passengers in that area are not facing prosecution or penalty fares then the restrictions cant be that confusing

Whilst you are busy arguing that we are all aware of the restrictions so it probably wont seem to complicated to us you are completely missing your own hypocrisy in that

Your perception of being painfully ripped off is only because of your knowledge of splitting and various other tricks that the railway has never intended to have happen

If the railway was a painful rip off then passenger numbers would not be rising as they are currently

I'm afraid I don't buy the "bus is easier" arguement - it is quite possible to purchase a fare (usually a day ranger) for a bus that is valid on one operators services only (even the single ticket prices between the two can vary wildly)
Where I live we have Yorkshire Tiger and Arriva. A recent occurence is what has reminded me of this as a family member was telling me the other day that Yorkshire Tiger have borrowed one of the Arriva vehicles, and as a result, Yorkshire Tiger are accepting Arriva passes when using this vehicle

In some places as you pointed out busses are no simpler . In manchester you can buy tickets just valid on stagecoach /first/arriva.then you can buy ticket valid on all , tickets valid on all and trams etc etc . From my local bus stop to the city center I can pay as little as a pound or as much as £2.20 depending on the color and number of bus I get on . Im pretty sure there is one route that runs near to my house that is even operated by different companies at different times of the day which could further confuse passengers .

 

[talltim]

The irony of this post being that BR itself was formed by the amalgamation of different train companies. Which, depending on how old your dad is,couldve been something he may remember.

Did the Grouping companies have single company tickets?

 

[yorkie]

Im aware that in some cases revenue allocation is not as straight forward , but in other cases it is straight forward . If someone has a tpe advance ticket from Manchester to leeds but boards a northern service to make the journey then who gets the revenue from that ticket ?

TPE get the revenue from that ticket, which is the same as Northern getting all the revenue on a Leeds to York route: via Harrogate ticket, which can be excessed for a matter of pennies for use on TPE.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The difference is that Advances have been specifically created for the purpose of having revenue attributed soley to the company(ies) named in the route and getting people onto their trains.. Your example is one that has happened by chance.

How is that any different to a York - Leeds rte: via Harrogate ticket, or a Manchester - Leeds rte: via Hebden Bridge ticket? They were created specifically for the purpose of having revenue abstracted from TPE to Northern, and yet they can be excessed.

My point wasn't about Advances specifically anyway; I was comparing walk-up fares from Birmingham to London. Choose to travel with Chiltern and you'll be issued a ticket that can be upgraded for use on Virgin, but choose to travel with LM and you'll be issued with a ticket that (officially) can't be.

 

[6Gman]

Did the Grouping companies have single company tickets?

Yes.

... and splendidly complex rules!

[When my grandfather went to the - Railway - Convalescent Home in Dawlish it was free pass to Pontypool Road then quarter-fare to Dawlish!]

 

[Yew]

are restrictions set by livery now?

If I go on Chilterns BR Blue rake, do I pay fares at 1965 levels

 

[krus_aragon]

'AP NORTHERN ONLY'
'AP XC ONLY CNM'
'AP XC ONLY DBY'
'✠AP EMT& CONNECT'
'AP SWT ONLY'
'AP HULLTRNS ONLY'
'AP GC ONLY'
'AP EMT& CONNECT'
'AP FGW/ATW &CONN'
'AP TPE & CONNECT'
'AP TPE ONLY'
'AP SOUTHERN ONLY'


To name just a few. They're quite common really.

Arriva have renamed some of theirs to 'ATW &CONNETIONS' or 'AP SHREWSBURY', but there are still several flows routed 'AP ATW CT & CONN' seven years since Central Trains ceased to be!

 

[Starmill]

Arriva have renamed some of theirs to 'ATW &CONNETIONS' or 'AP SHREWSBURY', but there are still several flows routed 'AP ATW CT & CONN' seven years since Central Trains ceased to be!

Indeed! 'AP MANCHESTER' and 'AP HEREFORD' are out there too! And for the First Class Advances, 'AP ATW ONLY'

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I know, lets go back to how it was under BR, which had a far simpler range of long distance journey tickets with no restrictions or variations at all...

 

[infobleep]

How does BR ticketing compare to the big four prior to privatisation?

 

[Clip]

How does BR ticketing compare to the big four prior to privatisation?

Its irrelevant unless you then compare ticketing of the big four to prior to the 'big four'. Which was kind of my point.

And also why which I dont mean to derail the thread somewhat, that people ought to understand BR and how much money it hemorrhaged whilst it was state owned before they hark back to thinking it was a beautiful thing.

 

[Deerfold]

How does BR ticketing compare to the big four prior to privatisation?

Do you mean prior to nationalisation?

 

[Tetchytyke]

people ought to understand BR and how much money it hemorrhaged whilst it was state owned

Fascinating, isn't it, how paying billions to British Rail is "haemorrhaging money" but paying billions to the TOCs is "investing in Britain's infrastructure".

 

[Clip]

Fascinating, isn't it, how paying billions to British Rail is "haemorrhaging money" but paying billions to the TOCs is "investing in Britain's infrastructure".

I dont remember saying anything about that, do you?

Also I think you will find that the billions you speak of investing in britains infrastructure actually goes to NR who are the ones who do just that.

but carry on. Theres fat cats out there just waiting for your slights against them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Also I think you will find that the billions you speak of investing in britains infrastructure actually goes to NR who are the ones who do just that.

£600m is going to Serco and Abellio in "subsidy" at Northern, First got £3bn in the years they ran Scotrail. First, again, were given £230m last year for Great Western. In all (excluding network grants) 8 of the 14 DfT franchised TOCs receive subsidies.

I dont remember saying anything about that, do you?

People's choice of words is often illuminating. People who support nationalisation "hark back" to a time when the state company "haemorrhaged money". The network still does- it's 7p per passenger mile overall- except now you've got the likes of Serco skimming the cream off the top as well as the costs of running lightly-loaded trains to far-flung villages.

By stating BR "haemorrhaged money" you're implying that our shiny privatised utopia doesn't, and anyone who preferred paying for trains not fat cat yachts is foolish.

If the railway was a painful rip off then passenger numbers would not be rising as they are currently

...so ATOC like to claim.

The truth is more complicated. A lot of train travel is a distress purchase- one has to get to work somehow- and people will travel regardless. That was the rationale behind regulating fares increases for season ticket holders- it was to prevent rampant profiteering in the run-up to the 1997 General Election. It worked, to an extent, but the cost of commuting is as much as the cost of the rent/mortgage for many people in the south east.

Walk-up fares are a painful ripoff so people are not using them anymore, with the Anytime fares forcing people on to Advance tickets with punitive restrictions. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends on your viewpoint.

 

[Deerfold]

The truth is more complicated. A lot of train travel is a distress purchase- one has to get to work somehow- and people will travel regardless. That was the rationale behind regulating fares increases for season ticket holders- it was to prevent rampant profiteering in the run-up to the 1997 General Election. It worked, to an extent, but the cost of commuting is as much as the cost of the rent/mortgage for many people in the south east.

In the first few years regulated fares were allowed to rise by *less* than the rate of inflation (presumably to show the benefits of privatisation). That didn't last long...

 

[plastictaffy]

Be interesting to know how many of the ticket sellers and train conductors (aka guards) actually DO know the best/cheapest/most convenient ticket for your journey all the time, or even whether the ticket you have is correct. I bet the majority don't, and like us, rely on a website for the info (which could be wrong anyway). That's not a dig at the person, it's a dig at the system.

Often, it's worth playing around with the ticket and routing options.
Some weeks ago, a chap boarded at Kempston Hardwick (on the Bedford line) wanting to go to Chesterfield. Now, no ticket office, so I can sell him the full range of tickets. Full point-to-point fare came in at over 50 notes, but if you split ticket it as Kempston Hardwick - Market Harborough - Chesterfield, it comes in about 7 quid cheaper. Being as the chap was a self-employed Car Delivery type fella, I sold him the cheapest ticket.

Also, in the peak, if you are travelling from Wolverton, wanting a travelcard, it's cheaper to buy a single WOL-MKC and a Travelcard from there.
Most of the little tricks we know are self-taught by playing with the machine and reading the restrictions when working a busy 12 car in the morning. We pass info between each other about tricks for cheaper tickets and the like, helps a lot.

 

[Howardh]

Often, it's worth playing around with the ticket and routing options.
Some weeks ago, a chap boarded at Kempston Hardwick (on the Bedford line) wanting to go to Chesterfield. Now, no ticket office, so I can sell him the full range of tickets. Full point-to-point fare came in at over 50 notes, but if you split ticket it as Kempston Hardwick - Market Harborough - Chesterfield, it comes in about 7 quid cheaper. Being as the chap was a self-employed Car Delivery type fella, I sold him the cheapest ticket.

Also, in the peak, if you are travelling from Wolverton, wanting a travelcard, it's cheaper to buy a single WOL-MKC and a Travelcard from there.
Most of the little tricks we know are self-taught by playing with the machine and reading the restrictions when working a busy 12 car in the morning. We pass info between each other about tricks for cheaper tickets and the like, helps a lot.

Chorley to Stalybridge (off peak day return) is a whopping £16-something. Total rip-off of a fare that, wonder if the ticket sellers would say "no, have a Peak Wayfarer" at £11".
Saying that, it's probably easily splittable Chorley - Horwich ret and then Gtr. Manchester Day ranger as long as you are off-peak.
But if I was unused to rail travel, and went to the ticket office for a journey of, what, 30 miles (?) and was told £16.60 ret OFF PEAK then you'd have to pick me up off the floor.