£1000 bill for travelling on Virgin Trains on a 'LM only' ticket.

[Starmill]

Chorley to Stalybridge (off peak day return) is a whopping £16-something. Total rip-off of a fare that, wonder if the ticket sellers would say "no, have a Peak Wayfarer" at £11".
Saying that, it's probably easily splittable Chorley - Horwich ret and then Gtr. Manchester Day ranger as long as you are off-peak.
But if I was unused to rail travel, and went to the ticket office for a journey of, what, 30 miles (?) and was told £16.60 ret OFF PEAK then you'd have to pick me up off the floor.

Please don't confuse by calling it a Peak Wayfarer. There is a thing called a Derbyshire Wayfarer and a Manchester Wayfarer (abbreviated by the ticketing system as GM WAYFARER). Chorley to Stalybridge is indeed £16.60 SVR or £19.40 SOR - which is utterly bonkers, and there will be people out there, paying that. The reason for the immense expense, particularly for the Anytime ticket (although note that the off-peak ticket can be used after 0859) is the lack of a day return.

 

[muz379]

£600m is going to Serco and Abellio in "subsidy" at Northern, First got £3bn in the years they ran Scotrail. First, again, were given £230m last year for Great Western. In all (excluding network grants) 8 of the 14 DfT franchised TOCs receive subsidies.

You like to set your sights on the fat cat bosses at TOCS dont you .

Yes £600m or whatever does go to the company running the Northern franchise as a subsidy . But your painting the picture as if this is all creamed off by Northern when that is far from true .

If you want to be angry at someone for the cost and state of the trains that are run by Northern blame the Roscos who with DFT approval are charging extortionate amounts for the loan of pacers and sprinters that are life expired and have been paid for multiple times over already .

It would be like running a car hire company with a range of T reg cars that are completely knackered .

Of that £600M how much ends up in the pockets of the Bankers and venture capitalists who own the ROSCOS
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Please don't confuse by calling it a Peak Wayfarer. There is a thing called a Derbyshire Wayfarer and a Manchester Wayfarer (abbreviated by the ticketing system as GM WAYFARER). Chorley to Stalybridge is indeed £16.60 SVR or £19.40 SOR - which is utterly bonkers, and there will be people out there, paying that. The reason for the immense expense, particularly for the Anytime ticket (although note that the off-peak ticket can be used after 0859) is the lack of a day return.

Id never charge someone on the train £16.60 for a return between Chorley and Stalybridge unless they specifically wanted to use the SOR or SVR because they where not coming back the same day . If someone boarded my train at Chorley and asked for a Stalybridge return , I would confirm they wanted to come back the same day and at what time and then split it for them so it worked out cheaper .

 

[Starmill]

Id never charge someone on the train £16.60 for a return between Chorley and Stalybridge unless they specifically wanted to use the SOR or SVR because they where not coming back the same day . If someone boarded my train at Chorley and asked for a Stalybridge return , I would confirm they wanted to come back the same day and at what time and then split it for them so it worked out cheaper .

And I would commend you for doing so. I would also hope that many of your colleagues would do the same, and that your manager would be happy with that. However, what I do not agree with, is that the TSA suggests that this is not permitted. I cannot remember the exact wording - I am sure someone can. The obligation is to sell the cheapest through ticket, and if someone does not word their request carefully I think they could well end up with that SVR, even though a straightforward Chorley - Horwich Parkway CDR is £4.90 and Horwich Parkway - Stalybridge is £4.20 - a massive saving if a Day Return is what you want. The ticket office at Chorley would have the same difficulty, unless the passenger worded their request with extreme care, an attempt by the clerk to recommend splitting at Horwich Parkway, Bolton or Manchester if they want to return the same day could be looked upon very dimly indeed by management.

 

[muz379]

And I would commend you for doing so. I would also hope that many of your colleagues would do the same, and that your manager would be happy with that. However, what I do not agree with, is that the TSA suggests that this is not permitted. I cannot remember the exact wording - I am sure someone can. The obligation is to sell the cheapest through ticket, and if someone does not word their request carefully I think they could well end up with that SVR, even though a straightforward Chorley - Horwich Parkway CDR is £4.90 and Horwich Parkway - Stalybridge is £4.20 - a massive saving if a Day Return is what you want. The ticket office at Chorley would have the same difficulty, unless the passenger worded their request with extreme care, an attempt by the clerk to recommend splitting at Horwich Parkway, Bolton or Manchester if they want to return the same day could be looked upon very dimly indeed by management.

The thing Is I would only offer that because I know of that split . My experience is that my Managers are not all that interested in what it is I am actually selling , as long as I am paying in the amount of cash the machine says I should be paying in .

I have no doubt at some point sold someone a through ticket that I could have easily split to save the customer some money because I simply did not realize that the ticket could be split .

The requirement for passengers to ask for the specific ticket is surelybecoming a bit of a nonesense now with regards to the addition of evening peak restrictions .
Generally I have been leaving it to passengers to ask for what they want and selling them the off peak if they dont ask specifically on the basis it can get excessed later if needs be . Where I do ask , most people want the off peak anyway

 

[Tetchytyke]

Id never charge someone on the train £16.60 for a return between Chorley and Stalybridge unless they specifically wanted to use the SOR or SVR because they where not coming back the same day . If someone boarded my train at Chorley and asked for a Stalybridge return , I would confirm they wanted to come back the same day and at what time and then split it for them so it worked out cheaper .

I think that's commenable, especially given some of the fares you see in Greater Manchester and the short hop between Greenfield and Marsden. I'm glad guards are doing this and not following the order that they can only sell a ticket that the passenger asks for.

Of that £600M how much ends up in the pockets of the Bankers and venture capitalists who own the ROSCOS

I'm mostly angry at the Tories for destroying the railways in Britain.

My point isn't to blame the TOCs- although they deserve a lot of blame- it was more to point out that the shiny privatised utopia we have now costs more than the British Rail that "haemorrhaged" money did. But because we're giving the money to the fat cats at HSBC and the fraudsters at Serco it's not "loss making" it's "investment".

 

[Deerfold]

I'm mostly angry at the Tories for destroying the railways in Britain.

That's a bit strong! They've wasted plenty of money and helped price some people off services, but there's more miles and passengers now tham pre-privatisation.

If you want destroyed - look at rural bus routes.

My point isn't to blame the TOCs- although they deserve a lot of blame- it was more to point out that the shiny privatised utopia we have now costs more than the British Rail that "haemorrhaged" money did. But because we're giving the money to the fat cats at HSBC and the fraudsters at Serco it's not "loss making" it's "investment".

Oh, the ROSCO scandal is not understood by the average man in the street. I've never quite understood why these can't be nationalised bodies (even if only by doing it very slowly with the new government company buying the new stock).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can just about understand the ROSCO model for new trains. I don't like PFI, I think it is nothing more than the Governmental equivalent of the "buy now pay later" deal at DFS except with Wonga interest rates, but I can understand why a build-and-maintain contract would be appealing. I can understand why they did the deals with Siemens and Hitachi, even if I think they are poor value (especially the IEP deal).

What I truly cannot get my head around is why the Tories ever thought it was a good idea to flog trains designed, built and paid for by BR off for pence. Northern are paying £100k a year for a Pacer train that was paid for in full the day it rolled out of Derby. And then the Tories force price rises on passengers to pay for this "investment in rolling stock".

 

[Starmill]

What I truly cannot get my head around is why the Tories ever thought it was a good idea to flog trains designed, built and paid for by BR off for pence. Northern are paying £100k a year for a Pacer train that was paid for in full the day it rolled out of Derby. And then the Tories force price rises on passengers to pay for this "investment in rolling stock".

I could not agree more. I'd like to see how this can be argued against.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Please don't confuse by calling it a Peak Wayfarer. There is a thing called a Derbyshire Wayfarer and a Manchester Wayfarer (abbreviated by the ticketing system as GM WAYFARER). .....

Surely it's neither.

I have a 'scratch-off' one in front of me, and the associated leaflet, both refer only to 'Wayfarer'. Which is not helpful given the Derbyshire version also available.

 

[Starmill]

Surely it's neither.

I have a 'scratch-off' one in front of me, and the associated leaflet, both refer only to 'Wayfarer'. Which is not helpful given the Derbyshire version also available.

I believe they have been discontinued as scratch-off tickets. Although you're correct that a distinction with a Derbyshire Wayfarer isn't well made in official publicity!

 

[Moonshark]

Id never charge someone on the train £16.60 for a return between Chorley and Stalybridge unless they specifically wanted to use the SOR or SVR because they where not coming back the same day . If someone boarded my train at Chorley and asked for a Stalybridge return , I would confirm they wanted to come back the same day and at what time and then split it for them so it worked out cheaper .

You shouldn't be selling cheap tickets to passengers who have boarded the train without a ticket, it should be a standard full fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm mostly angry at the Tories for destroying the railways in Britain.

Destroying? I think that's harsh. The rail system is expensive and slightly fragmented - certainly not optimal - but it's far, far better than it was in the 1980s and 1990s. Higher frequencies, higher speeds, cleaner and less run-down stations and trains.

Of course if you imagine what a BR given all that extra money would be like, it'd likely be pretty good. But that doesn't mean what happened destroyed it.

I agree with another poster than it's bus services outside cities that could be argued to have been destroyed.

Neil

 

[VauxhallandI]

Destroying? I think that's harsh. The rail system is expensive and slightly fragmented - certainly not optimal - but it's far, far better than it was in the 1980s and 1990s. Higher frequencies, higher speeds, cleaner and less run-down stations and trains.

Of course if you imagine what a BR given all that extra money would be like, it'd likely be pretty good. But that doesn't mean what happened destroyed it.

I agree with another poster than it's bus services outside cities that could be argued to have been destroyed.

Neil

My station reeks of pee and is strewn with litter and long term grime. The train that turns up has fleas.

How bad was it in BR days!

 

[Starmill]

You shouldn't be selling cheap tickets to passengers who have boarded the train without a ticket, it should be a standard full fare.

What, from all stations? At all times of day?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Destroying? I think that's harsh. The rail system is expensive and slightly fragmented - certainly not optimal - but it's far, far better than it was in the 1980s and 1990s. Higher frequencies, higher speeds, cleaner and less run-down stations and trains.

Of course if you imagine what a BR given all that extra money would be like, it'd likely be pretty good. But that doesn't mean what happened destroyed it.

I agree with another poster than it's bus services outside cities that could be argued to have been destroyed.

Neil

Closing vast chunks of it was destroying it.

 

[455driver]

I'm mostly angry at the Tories for destroying the railways in Britain.

Is that the first time around when most of the closures (including some not in 'that' report) took place under a Labour government?
Or the second time when it was Privatised (under the Tories) and then continued on under Labours watch for over a decade despite one of their main manifesto points was to renationalise the railways!

Yeah Labours record is sooooo much better than the Tories isnt it! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Closing vast chunks of it was destroying it.

Who was in power when most of these closures took place?

 

[Starmill]

Who was in power when most of these closures took place?

I wasn't making a political point - and I don't have a clue!

 

[455driver]

I wasn't making a political point - and I don't have a clue!

Have a guess?
I will give you a clue (coz I is nice like that ) it begins with L and ends in R and has 4 letters in the middle, 3 vowels and a consonant!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is that the first time around when most of the closures (including some not in 'that' report) took place under a Labour government?
Or the second time when it was Privatised (under the Tories) and then continued on under Labours watch for over a decade despite one of their main manifesto points was to renationalise the railways!

Yeah Labours record is sooooo much better than the Tories isnt it! :roll

Just because I hate the Tories it doesn't mean I like Labour. I hate them too. They're just Tory Lite, and just as interested in protecting the corporate fat cats as the Tories ever were.

"That" report is a tough one because, truth be told, most of the lines that closed deserved to close. A few should never have closed, e.g. the Waverley Route and Blyth & Tyne, and a few with hindsight should have stayed open, e.g. Keswick, but most closed because they were financial basket cases that went from nowhere to nowhere via nowhere.

Privatisation destroyed the railway building industry in this country and destroyed the railway construction industry too. Privatisation was a major contributory cause of several fatal crashes in the late 90s and early 2000s. You can blame privatisation, and the corner-cutting caused by profiteering, for Watford, Southall, Ladbroke Grove, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Tebay and Grayrigg.

But I think we've strayed far from the original point about a man charged £1000 because he got on a red train instead of a green one.

 

[455driver]

Arctic Troll, I agree with every word of that post, especially the bit about Labour being Tory lite!

I wasn't insinuating that you liked Labour, just that a lot of the things the Tories started were actually carried on and finished (or even taken a stage further) by Labour meaning the actual villains of the piece were Labour.

 

[jon0844]

At least the Tories do what they set out to do. Labour says one thing and does another.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I wasn't insinuating that you liked Labour, just that a lot of the things the Tories started were actually carried on and finished (or even taken a stage further) by Labour meaning the actual villains of the piece were Labour.

I think some people on here think I do like Labour though!

They're all as bad as each other. And this idea of DOR bidding against private operators is quite probably the stupidest thing I have ever heard, and Miliband has said some pretty stupid stuff in his time.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think this thread has run its course and it's now going some quite considerable distance off the original point! If people wish to continue the discussions around privatization vs nationalization, Labour vs Tory or who destroyed the railways/the railways weren't destroyed at all then please feel free to do so on a new thread or an existing thread that we have to discuss those issues.

If any one has anything significant to add to the original topic of this thread please feel free to contact a member of the staff team and we will consider reopening the thread.