£2.50 extra on Oyster for 1 more stop (into Zone 1)

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by parkender102, 22 Jul 2013.

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  1. parkender102

    parkender102 Member

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    Staying in High Street Kensington tonight and just checked the Oyster fare on TFL and it's £4.90 from Hampton Court (SW Trains) via Wimbledon (District Line). However if I get off and walk from Earls Court (the previous stop) it's only £2.40. Seems a large difference for just for 1 stop?

    I assume it's because there is a weighting on any travel via Zone 1 as High St Ken is in Zone 1 and Earls Court in Zone 2 I think. Seems a bit harsh when you can travel all the way from Hampton Court (Zone 6) to Earls Court (Zone 2) and then be charged the same again + 10p for 1 extra stop! I know what I'll be doing.

    Are there any other examples of this?
     
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  3. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

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    Anywhere you cross a zonal boundary/travel within zone 1. The Leicester Square to Covent Garden being (one of) the most expensive journeys for miles. Even on buses where you pay a flat fare it is expensive for going one stop in some cases

    It's a disadvantage of a zonal system and will happen anywhere in the world with such a system
     
  4. parkender102

    parkender102 Member

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    Thanks. Still seems strange that Zone 6 to Zone 2 is £2.40 and then an extra £2.50 to go 1 stop into Zone 1 (of course it would be £2.50 extra to go to completely opposite end of Zone 1 also - for instance Adgate East). I think I expected the cost to be spread more evenly along the route I suppose i.e.

    Hampton Court (Zone 6) to Zone 5 - £1.30
    Hampton Court (Zone 6) to Zone 4 - £2.20
    Hampton Court (Zone 6) to Zone 3 - £3.50
    Hampton Court (Zone 6) to Zone 2 - £4.20
    Hampton Court (Zone 6) to Zone 1 - £4.90

    or something along those lines.

    Earls Court I assume is Zone 1/2 as it's on the boundary but have also noticed Notting Hill Gate is Zone 1/2 - however it's again £4.90 to Notting Hill Gate ( I suppose because you pass through High St Ken which IS in Zone 1)
     
    Last edited: 22 Jul 2013
  5. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    As you surmised there's a 'premium' charged on through NR/LU journeys which go via Zone 1 - which doesn't apply to single-mode journeys.

    See http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/fares-guide/ for a better explanation.

    It's better how things used to be though, where most through LU/NR journeys were charged as if they were two separate journeys - making short journeys very expensive.
     
  6. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Zone 1 has a huge extra cost for mixed mode journeys (Underground + National Rail in one journey)
     
  7. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

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    That may be a London thing because (I suspect) zone 1 is more congested and there is more demand for travel through it. London's network (or the tube at least) is concentric around zone 1 making it quicker for people to go through zone 1 for the most part and is probably some of the reasoning behind pink readers at certain stations.

    If you did spread the cost then you'll get people who's outer journeys are now more expensive so it's very hard to get a balance. For what it's worth I agree that it shouldn't cost double to do via zone 1.


    In the West Midlands we have (these are weeklies since there is no zone distinction for dailies and for nnetwork which is bus, train and tram)
    1-1: £21.30
    1-2: £22.40
    1-3: £26.00
    1-4: £27.00
    1-5: £28.50
    2-5: £26.00

    edit: as others have said it's a mixed mode premium but I've also noticed it on some (all?) tube only versions - travelling from Harrow on the Hill (Z5) to Hammersmith (Z2) is £3 off peak but if you go via Rayner's Lane it's £1.50
     
    Last edited: 22 Jul 2013
  8. robbob700

    robbob700 Member

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    It would also be the same price to go to somewhere like Epping, completely the other side of London, as you only pay for the zones you travel through - however many times!
     
  9. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    If your Z6 to Z1 journey had been on NR only, then you would have paid £3.50 - an extra £1.10. It's the mixed-mode-ness of the journey into Z1 that adds a further 'premium'.
     
  10. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The number of stops is irrelevant. Oyster PAYG fares are purely Zonal-based (though in some cases it has to make assumptions about the route you take).
    Yes - you are paying extra for Zone 1.
    There is indeed a huge premium for Zone 1, this is partly 'market based' pricing and partly because, on average, Zone 1 is where most overcrowding occurs.

    I recently had plenty of time to get from King's Cross to Croydon, so I walked to Caledonian Road & Barnsbury (20 mins), tapped the pink reader at Stratford, and touched out at West Croydon. £1.50 - bargain!
    Yes, as the fares are set Zonally.
     
  11. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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    In fact if you got off at Earls Court, touched out, touched back in again and continued to High St Ken, you would only be charged 2.40 + 2.10, 40p less than if you made 1 through journey!
     
  12. parkender102

    parkender102 Member

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    To cap it all I exited at Wimbledon - only to find the tube gates closed off due to severe signalling delays between Wimbledon and Earls Court. In a panic I swiped Oyster thinking of another route via bus. Then I realised I could get next train to Clapham Junction so (I thought) swiped back in again and caught next train to Clapham Junction. On checking my Oyster history later there was no swipe at Wimbledon back in and I was charged Hampton Court to Wimledon £2.20 + Clapham Jct £4.90! Is there any way to claim back the difference? It's obvious from the timings that I got straight back on the train to Clapham Junction as my arrival in Clapham Junction meant I spent literally 2 minutes at Wimbledon.
     
    Last edited: 22 Jul 2013
  13. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    You can try calling the Oyster helpline - they're the people who deal with that sort of issue. their new number is 0343 222 1234. Calls cost the same as calling an 01 or 02 number (even from mobiles) and lines are open 8am - 8pm
     
  14. londonbridge

    londonbridge Member

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    Ok, how about:

    West Croydon-Canada Water-Stratford. Zone 5-Zone 3. £1.50

    Stratford-Canada Water-East Croydon. Still Zone 3-Zone 5 but charged at £2.20.
     
  15. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Z 3-5 TfL rate
    Z 3-5 NR rate
     
  16. causton

    causton Established Member

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    Presumably because you use the Overground to West Croydon in their calculation, so it is cheaper?
     
  17. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Overground can count as TfL or NR (whatever makes the fare cheaper)
     
  18. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    This fare is a single mode TfL-only (LO & LU) journey.

    This is a multi-mode TfL & NR journey.

    Certain NR routes charge TfL 'tube' fares. Check the map http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/national-rail-map.pdf. Your first journey can be made on the green routes only, the second one requires both green and red routes.
     
  19. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Yes that's right. For journeys further out from the centre, the Transport for London (TfL) rates are generally cheaper.

    However a good example of the opposite occurring is Shoreditch to Canada Water, where only £1.90 is charged, which is the National Rail (NR) rate. The NR rates tend to be cheaper closer to the centre.

    There are also peak/off-peak differentials.

    In all cases I am aware of, London Overground journeys will be charged at the lowest possible rate.
     
  20. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    No. It is an NR-only Zones 2-5 fare. LO can be either NR or LU, whichever is cheaper.
    Both are Zones 2-5 fares, not 3-5.
     
  21. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I am not disagreeing with you as such (the charge you quote is correct) but the charge is the NR rate. LO counts as NR, but is charged at the lower of the rates.

    Also there no mixed-mode premium for using LU unless the system detects that you have used a 'red' (NR only) route and LU within Zone 1.
     
  22. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    This journey can't be done solely on NR. (Changing at Canada Water implies using the Jubilee line.)

    It just so happens that in this case (Z2-5) the price for a multi-mode TfL & NR journey and an NR-only journey is the same.
     
    Last edited: 22 Jul 2013
  23. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Of course TfL's advertising is so great at extolling the simplicity of their pricing system that most people in London genuinely think that the only things that determines the fare are the time of day and zones travelled through. Many people are paying much more for mixed-mode when there is a feasible alternative because they simply don't know there are different rates depending on the mode.
     
  24. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    If you do a journey that is on a combination on NR (red route) and LU (priced at TfL rates) then there isn't a multi-mode price as such, you simply pay the higher of the rates (NR will usually be more), with the one exception that if you go via Zone 1, then you incur the dreaded Zone 1 mixed mode premium tax!

    So 2-5, 3-6 etc on NR+LU will generally be charged at the NR rate.

    Basically, to avoid being utterly ripped off, you have to ensure you don't use LU in Zone 1 while also using a 'red route'. There is nearly always an alternative. As Maniacmartin says, a lot of people could probably make substantial savings if they just changed their journey habits slightly.
     
  25. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    I don't think it can be called an NR-only fare when it's clearly not an NR-only journey. It may be how the fare was derived in the back office, but TfL clearly list separate fare tables for NR-only journeys and for mixed-mode TfL and NR journeys - implying that the derivation of the fare might change at any point in the future.

    But we're splitting hairs here...
     
    Last edited: 23 Jul 2013
  26. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Indeed it might. Mixed journeys are made up of the NR fare plus an agreed premium. At present the TOCs only charge the premium on journeys involving zone 1, but they may decide to vary that at any revision in the future.
     
  27. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Ah, the Shoreditch High Street issue. In that case, it would seem it is indeed a mixed mode fare. I was thinking of changing at Highbury, but that involves going through Zone 1.

    Simple mistake. Disingenious I certainly wasn't trying to be.
     
  28. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    No, it's the wrong word. (It's late!) Apologies, I didn't mean to offend... I shall edit it out now.
     
  29. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Shoreditch on weekdays is heavily used by commuters though. . It might seem a bit odd to someone who visits on a Saturday, but virtually the whole train (seated and standing) alights there at 0800 - 08:30am, and walks to the finance district near Liverpool St station. ELL trains are totally at capacity, so they can charge through the nose!

    I always thought the station was oversized with stupidly wide staircases, but now I realise that they were the right decision.
     
    Last edited: 23 Jul 2013
  30. CNash

    CNash Member

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    Was the Zone 1 mixed-mode premium demanded by the TOCs upon the Oyster PAYG system integration a few years ago? If so... has there been any progress with Boris's idea of buying up the London metro lines and rebranding them as LO? :)
     
  31. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    Well, so far the only routes moving to TfL will be a) those that form Crossrail plus b) the rest of the GA 'metro' services (to Chingford/Enfield Town/Cheshunt via Seven Sisters) which might be branded as Overground.
     
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