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£300M for the Borders Railway? Value for money or better spent elsewhere?

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nuneatonmark

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Borders railway - £300m for about 30 miles of new railway connecting a number of small towns to Edinburgh. Good value? If you had £300M to spend on any other railway project which would it be, why that one and why would it better value for money than the borders railway? Don't answer for projects that would would probably cost more.
 
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Blamethrower

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pretty good value compared to anything ever suggested in England. In London that would be spent on feasibility studies alone.

Yes, great value
 

Greenback

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I think the line will be a big success. I don't think it's possible to quantify exactly what economic benefits it will bring, in terms of jobs during construction and then operating the line, as well as linking people to the capital and stimulating economic activity in the area.
 

pemma

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I seem to recall the feasibility report found a very low BCR for Borders railway (so low it normally wouldn't have been looked in to but having Transport Scotland in existence got it reopened), so while I hope it doesn't fail, it's seen as a lot more likely to fail than numerous lines where reopenings have been looked at but not commissioned.
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pretty good value compared to anything ever suggested in England. In London that would be spent on feasibility studies alone.

The problem in England is the scheme would have been rejected for having a low BCR and then every few years it would be looked in to again in the hope of getting a better BCR and while the BCR could improve it still doesn't get on Network Rail's list of projects.
 

Greenback

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I can't think of very many reopenings in Scotland or Wales that have not been considered successful, at least in wider context than simply benefits to costs, though i accept that there has to be some sort of criteria for judging which schemes should proceed and which should not.

In almost all the cases where lines have been reopened, I believe that the predicted BCR has been too pessimistic, though I'm happy to be corrected if my understanding is incorrect.
 

HarleyDavidson

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I for one hope it eventually goes all the way back to Carlisle, as I've said in a previous post that the problem may come in the future when those who currently live in Edinburgh, start to realise that the Galashiels & Tweedbank areas are nice areas to live in and are eminently commutable.

This will cause an increase in property prices, which will in turn drive those there out and a bit further out, also there will be the jealousy factor, when the residents of Melrose, St Boswells, Kelso & Hawick start realising that they're missing out not only on the tourism aspect of it, but the resultant property boom and the ability to have an easy link into the Scottish capital and of course the improvement in employment prospects without having to leave their locale & having to drive.

A possible offshoot of this is of course will the residents of Peebles and towns & villages on the route now start to campaign for that route to be reinstated too.

Also just out of curiosity, the distance from Carlisle to Edinburgh is 98¼ miles via Waverley, what's it from Carlisle via WCML & Carstairs? I think it would be shorter and quicker via Waverley and as such cheaper, due to the reduced amount of fuel used and increase capacity on WCML.
 
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Carntyne

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Well worth it. It'll be a roaring success, just like every other Scottish re-opening.
 

WatcherZero

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Yes the BCR was boosted by including tourist potential however I think it was a realistic price and is neither great value nor poor value after the earlier over optimistic Scottish Government touted construction and operation price was changed to reflect reality and Network Rail took over.
 

JonathanH

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Melrose is just about in walking distance from Tweedbank station although not exactly as convenient as being able to go all the way by train.

Carlisle would be a really slow journey from Edinburgh using the Borders route (given the speed of the line to Tweedbank that has just been reopened) so no prospect of it being the main route. Just about the only justifications seem to be linking Hawick to Edinburgh and giving Borders people a southbound way out of the area.

Having used the X95 from Carlisle to Edinburgh twice it doesn't exactly pass through areas of population south of Hawick.
 

Bodiddly

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I've just read David Spaven's excellent book on the Waverley line and one thing is abundantly clear. This line should never have closed. It was arguably, more important than the Southern Scotland section of the WCML and served more people in the communities it passed through.
Don't forget, Beeching may have included it in his axe document but it was Harold Wilson's Labour transport secretary Richard Marsh who signed the final death warrant.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Also just out of curiosity, the distance from Carlisle to Edinburgh is 98¼ miles via Waverley, what's it from Carlisle via WCML & Carstairs?

101m 28ch (so just over 101¼ miles)

Edinburgh to Tweedbank is timed at 57 minutes. Edinburgh to Carlisle is timed around 1 hour 20 minutes for Virgin and TransPennine.

The route goes too far east to be a rapid line to Carlisle - it only gets back as far west as Carlisle around Longtown and for much of its route, it's closer to the ECML than the WCML.
 

nuneatonmark

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Going a bit off topic?

No one has offered any answers to my questions? If £300m can be spent on the Borders railway why are re-openings such as the LSWR route through Okehampton or Leicester to Burton not 'no brainers' to open. Surely they would equally successful/cost about the same?
 

ainsworth74

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If £300m can be spent on the Borders railway why are re-openings such as the LSWR route through Okehampton or Leicester to Burton not 'no brainers' to open. Surely they would equally successful/cost about the same?

I believe the most recent report on that by Network Rail had a price tag of approximately £0.8 - £1bn so considerably more than the £300m Borders Railway.
 

DarloRich

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No one has offered any answers to my questions? If £300m can be spent on the Borders railway why are re-openings such as the LSWR route through Okehampton or Leicester to Burton not 'no brainers' to open. Surely they would equally successful/cost about the same?

becuase

a) they aren't " no brainers" in the real world

and

b) They will cost a lot more than £300m!
 

yorksrob

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Borders railway - £300m for about 30 miles of new railway connecting a number of small towns to Edinburgh. Good value? If you had £300M to spend on any other railway project which would it be, why that one and why would it better value for money than the borders railway? Don't answer for projects that would would probably cost more.

In short, yes.

The proportion of NR funding spent on extending the network to new areas seems very small.

Value is an important concept, and I believe that there needs to be more work done to identify non-farebox value which is currently under-estimated.

Other projects I would like to see completed in a similar vein are Uckfield - Lewes and Bere Alston - Okehampton (Yes, I will answer for whatever projects I see fit, thankyou very much).
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Schemes I would think £300m would be worthwhile are:
Ashington to Tyneside; Fleetwood to Preston; Colne to Skipton; Wisbach to March; Burton to Leicester; Tunnels in Liverpool; Portishead to Bristol; Armagh to Portadown; Ripon to Harrogate; Immingham to Grimsby; etc.
They are all good value in my opinion, it'll have a great impact on places connected.
 

deltic

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Borders railway - £300m for about 30 miles of new railway connecting a number of small towns to Edinburgh. Good value? If you had £300M to spend on any other railway project which would it be, why that one and why would it better value for money than the borders railway? Don't answer for projects that would would probably cost more.

We will have to wait at least 5 years before it is possible to say it is good value or not - it will take time for ridership to build up and for associated development to come forward.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Going a bit off topic?

No one has offered any answers to my questions? If £300m can be spent on the Borders railway why are re-openings such as the LSWR route through Okehampton or Leicester to Burton not 'no brainers' to open. Surely they would equally successful/cost about the same?

Absolutely. And I think that they'll soon end up spending more on it to put it to double track, after the myopic idea of doing loads of single tracking instead of double and of course that means that any money they would have saved will be lost due to the increased costs of doubling.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Going a bit off topic? No one has offered any answers to my questions? If £300m can be spent on the Borders railway why are re-openings such as the LSWR route through Okehampton or Leicester to Burton not 'no brainers' to open. Surely they would equally successful/cost about the same?

Look who runs the governance of Scotland, in which area the Borders Railway is so situated and of the priorities attached to that particular body.

The other two examples that you cite have not the same governance with its own transport priorities but are just part of a picture that is painted on a far larger canvas. You cannot therefore attempt a comparative.
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Absolutely. And I think that they'll soon end up spending more on it to put it to double track, after the myopic idea of doing loads of single tracking instead of double and of course that means that any money they would have saved will be lost due to the increased costs of doubling.

There a very great infrastructural matter to be consider in terms of finance, which is the number of bridges that would have to be rebuilt to accommodate this doubled trackwork.
 

Altnabreac

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Borders railway - £300m for about 30 miles of new railway connecting a number of small towns to Edinburgh. Good value? If you had £300M to spend on any other railway project which would it be, why that one and why would it better value for money than the borders railway? Don't answer for projects that would would probably cost more.

I think the thing which tends to confuse people about Borders Rail is that it is essentially 2 different railways.

There has always been an excellent Business Case for opening an Edinburgh commuter line to Midlothian. This has very similar characteristics to many Scottish reopenings of the last 30 years from Bathgate and Paisley Canal in the 80s, to Alloa and Larkhall in more recent years.

A service connecting Glasgow / Edinburgh to currently non rail served commuter belt towns on their outskirts has been shown to work time and again.

However where Borders Rail went beyond this tried and tested pattern was to extend a little further beyond the existing commuter belt to reconnect a more distant area to a new labour market. This kind of reopening is not captured well by existing business case methodology as it is about changing travel and commuting patterns, new house building plans and inward investment changes. Not to mention more ephemeral benefits like the economic benefit for the central Borders of being "On the Map".

The fragility of this business case was recognised by early promoters and the Bill Committee at the Scottish Parliament inserted a handcuff clause forcing the completion of the whole route to stop it being cut back to the better business cased Midlothian section.

There has always been an explicit recognition that the Borders element of the scheme was political, initially as a Lib Dem concession for joining the 2003 coalition, then as a symbol of SNP commitment to traditionally less fertile nationalist territory of the Borders.

If you wanted a stronger traditional business case return for a similar amount of money then you could probably have put it into three £100m schemes with more traditional commuter benefits (Midlothian, Levenmouth and Penicuik rail lines say).

However until we see the economic effect a few years down the line it's impossible to judge whether this would actually have have generated more benefits, as the expecting outcomes from Borders Rail are both longer term and more difficult to quantify than a traditional reopening.

In the short - medium term though I'd expect the scheme to wash it's face very nicely through fast growth on the Midlothian section.

The best comparator in this regard is Airdrie - Bathgate. This line has seen very strong growth at each end from Glasgow to Airdrie and Drumgelloch and from Edinburgh to Uphall, Livingston North, Bathgate and Armadale.

The volume of traffic over the middle section has taken longer to build up as it involves changing travel and economic patterns that have taken 50 years to form and it is only as people move house/job or move into new housing areas that these travel patterns change.

It is undeniable though that the service has helped drive economic growth in these areas. I strongly suspect Borders Rail will do the same but judge it in 10 years time not in 12 months.
 

WatcherZero

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In short, yes.

The proportion of NR funding spent on extending the network to new areas seems very small.

Value is an important concept, and I believe that there needs to be more work done to identify non-farebox value which is currently under-estimated.

Other projects I would like to see completed in a similar vein are Uckfield - Lewes and Bere Alston - Okehampton (Yes, I will answer for whatever projects I see fit, thankyou very much).

I suppose you could argue that new extensions to the network are value for money but the counter would be there is no resources available to fund such extensions when we are having to throw a huge amount at the existing network simply to keep pace with the growing demand.

It would be like having a garden you don't have the time to care for already and deciding to rent an allotment patch as well, you could never reap the full benefit of the patch and the garden is going to suffer even more.
 

Starmill

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There are projects crying out for this money that could have had it instead of the Gorebridge <> Tweedbank section. Gorebridge to Newcraighall is easily likely to become popular enough to pay for itself. Beyond that costs were so high that I'm doubtful. New stations built on existing lines are much more cost-effective.

In spite of this I am so pleased that everyone who lives in Galashiels, a town we shouldn't forget is home to more than nearby Berwick-upon-Tweed is now within easy walking distance of a railway station. Good for them!
 
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Altnabreac

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There are projects crying out for this money that could have had it instead of the Gorebridge <> Tweedbank section.

New stations built on existing lines are much more cost-effective.

This is a short list of Scottish station reopening projects (with approximate populations served) on existing lines:

These 6 are likely to reopen in the next 3-4 years and broadly have funding in place or likely business cases:
  • Dalcross <1,000
  • Kintore 4,500
  • Winchburgh 2,500
  • East Linton 2,000
  • Reston <1,000
  • Robroyston 5,500

These 9 have regional transport body support for at least looking at business cases in the current Scottish Station Funds round:
  • Dundee West n/a
  • Oudenarde (Bridge of Earn) n/a
  • Newburgh 2,000
  • Auchenback n/a
  • Plains 2,500
  • Thornhill 1,500
  • Eastriggs 1,500
  • Dunragit <1,000
  • Beattock 3,000 (inc Moffat)

These 12 have some sort of reopening campaign / local authority support but no immediate reopening prospects:
  • Bucksburn 7,000
  • Newtonhill 3,500
  • Bannockburn 7,500
  • Blackford <1,000
  • Bonnybridge 7,000
  • Cambus 8,000 (inc Tullibody)
  • Ravenscraig n/a
  • Glenboig 1,500
  • Westerhills n/a
  • Woodilee n/a
  • Abronhill n/a
  • Flemington n/a

Worth noting none of these stations serves a population of 10,000 or more. Indeed there are not really any settlements of a significant size alongside existing Scottish passenger lines left that do not have a station.

All these schemes have at their heart either providing a rail head to a significant rural area (East Linton, Reston), unlocking development potential (Winchburgh, Dalcross, Auchenback, Oudenarde) or better serving suburbs / business parks of larger settlements (Kintore, Robroyston, Dundee West).

I sincerely doubt many of these schemes have a hugely better business case than Borders Rail, especially once you get past the top 15 or so schemes that are actually progressing.

In Scotland most of the low hanging fruit of station reopenings have been done.

To really provide useful benefits you are looking at reopening freight or closed lines.
 

The Ham

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Borders railway - £300m for about 30 miles of new railway connecting a number of small towns to Edinburgh. Good value? If you had £300M to spend on any other railway project which would it be, why that one and why would it better value for money than the borders railway? Don't answer for projects that would would probably cost more.

There are typically two main responses to this question until such time as this project has bedded in and/or there are comparable schemes to which it can be compared:

(from those near the line) yes this is a good project and it should have gone ahead

(from others with a pet project of a reopening) no [insert pet project route] should have been built instead

Others may fall into one or other camp but basicly that will be the answer that you will get.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Going a bit off topic?
No one has offered any answers to my questions?

Your original question was:

Borders railway - £300m for about 30 miles of new railway connecting a number of small towns to Edinburgh. Good value? If you had £300M to spend on any other railway project which would it be, why that one and why would it better value for money than the borders railway? Don't answer for projects that would probably cost more.

Trying to answer that has a problem: I doubt many people here have much idea of what £300m will actually buy you in terms of new railway capacity. I certainly have very little idea. That makes trying to say what I'd spend £300m on quite difficult.
 

Romilly

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This is a short list of Scottish station reopening projects (with approximate populations served) on existing lines:

I wondered about the omission of St Andrews from Altnabreac's list, with its population (apparently) of 16,500. The Starlink re-opening campaign has a website. Edit: I have just spotted the reference to "on existing lines", which gives me my answer.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Trying to answer that has a problem: I doubt many people here have much idea of what £300m will actually buy you in terms of new railway capacity. I certainly have very little idea. That makes trying to say what I'd spend £300m on quite difficult.

£300m buys you one Borders Railway, but similarly, it would buy you around 70 to 90 route miles (140 to 180 track miles) of electrification, perhaps enough to electrify from Newbury and the current extent of electrification out to Taunton or very close to it, so that sort of money can go an awfully long way, physically.

£300m on the other hand buys you a two track viaduct at Welwyn, but not the tunnelling or other works needed to four track the ECML. In this instance, £300m goes about a third of a mile.
 

Altnabreac

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I wondered about the omission of St Andrews from Altnabreac's list, with its population (apparently) of 16,500. The Starlink re-opening campaign has a website. Edit: I have just spotted the reference to "on existing lines", which gives me my answer.

Indeed if you start looking at either freight lines or reopened lines you can come up with a fair few potentially viable schemes:
Levenmouth, Grangemouth, Banchory, Penicuik, Bridge of Weir, Kincardine, St Andrews, Peterhead.

I'd say those are broadly in order of likelihood of happening with Starlink closer to the bottom than the top.

My point was that there aren't many station reopening schemes on existing lines compared to a fair few potential new lines.
 

Welly

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I'm delighted that part of the Waverley is now open again but I think it is way too early to question the value of the £300 million cost; let's re-visit this question in, say, 5 years time when all the benefits to the area beds in. Personally I feel that it will!

I stayed in Hawick for a week back in August 2005 for a family wedding and was deeply impressed with the under-population of the area between Hawick and Carlisle. It's very easy to drive the A7 between those places as there is hardly any traffic despite the bendy road.

Also I walked the trackbed between Whitrope and Riccarton Junction, there were 3 sharp bends in that bed in that short distance!

These together convinced me there is unlikely to be any case for re-opening from Hawick to Carlisle.
 

swt_passenger

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Trying to answer that has a problem: I doubt many people here have much idea of what £300m will actually buy you in terms of new railway capacity. I certainly have very little idea. That makes trying to say what I'd spend £300m on quite difficult.

I thought a Nuneaton bypass line might be a good idea, whatever it would cost, then Virgin and LM could both reduce their service at Nuneaton... :D
 
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