£48m boost for Penistone line service doubling and capacity increases

[Iskra]

If it terminates at Barnsley, would that allow stops to be withdrawn from other services to allow them to be faster? Faster Sheffield/Barnsley-Huddersfield journeys would be desirable.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I really don’t see the fixation on continuing to Meadowhall and Sheffield. Sure, these are big centres, at least for Meadowhall in the case of the Penistone line specifically.

However, a timed connection at Barnsley would be sufficient….. or attached to a fast service at Barnsley.

Either way, Barnsley town centre still sees a number of people visiting from just outside of its borders, notably Denby Dale.

A bay platform from the North sounds a real possibility though a bay platform from the south (both could theoretically work) would offer greater options, notably an extension of one of London—Sheffield services that spend time laying over in Barnsley…. Though I do appreciate there are capacity constraints north of Sheffield.

It's hardly a "fixation" as you put it... they're the main traffic sinks for the route. I agree that terminating at Barnsley with a decent connection to southbound services would be the next best thing, and we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Attaching services is probably a non-starter due to the performance risks due to the single sections- even the London commuter services which have splitting and joining down to a fine art, seem to be moving away from that method of operation. A bay to the south would need the capacity issues at Sheffield sorting out as you say, and is probably outside of the scope for this thread anyway. A London service did operate around 25 years ago using Turbostars, but usage wasn't particularly good so they didn't continue once the 170s went.

Having just looked at the timetable, the current Huddersfield to Barnsley time (calling at all stations) is 48mins, meaning an additional service terminating at BNY could be provided with two additional units- though turnarounds would be tight. Running beyond BNY would definitely need three units.

If it terminates at Barnsley, would that allow stops to be withdrawn from other services to allow them to be faster? Faster Sheffield/Barnsley-Huddersfield journeys would be desirable.

The constraints of the single sections (even with additional and/or extended loops) mean a skip-stopping pattern would be harder to plan, and as discussed earlier in the thread there aren't any obvious candidates for skipping due to the usage patterns and large number of journeys between intermediate stops. It's not like (for example) the Huddersfield to Leeds stoppers, where in the past a second service per hour was operated in the peaks which skipped Ravensthorpe- which had (and still has) drastically lower ridership than the rest of the route.

Faster journeys between the larger places would be better served by operating an additional service via either Wakefield Kirkgate or preferably a reinstated Crigglestone curve.

 

[Manclad]

The former St.Pancras-Barnsley was a round the houses, twice a day affair mind.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The former St.Pancras-Barnsley was a round the houses, twice a day affair mind.

Any reintroduction would probably be the same- I can't see EMR choosing to extend every other London service to Barnsley all day even if there was capacity through Nunnery.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I really don’t see the fixation on continuing to Meadowhall and Sheffield. Sure, these are big centres, at least for Meadowhall in the case of the Penistone line specifically.

Neither do I for that matter!

I think the idea is to have a much more frequent service to have everything head further is contary to that intention.

A turnback from the North could be wholly segregated from existing lines, it even has a disused bridge upon the Western side.

As for a South facing turnback, well that couldnt even be central and would just cause crossing conflicts.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Again, discussing various aspects of a proposal is not a "fixation". Nor is it off-topic, as the current Penistone line service runs to Sheffield via Meadowhall. Meanwhile every speculative topic about Bradford gets hijacked by a handful of users obsessed with Skipton to Colne.

 

[fishwomp]

You wouldn't turn back at Brightside... surely if you were terminating at Meadowhall you'd use the crossover on the Barnsley lines and turn back in the platforms?

Brightside allows getting out of the way, you would not be able to timetable an immediate return - not without over occupying the platform at Meadowhall

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Brightside allows getting out of the way, you would not be able to timetable an immediate return - not without over occupying the platform at Meadowhall

That's a fair point- much like at Barnsley there's a big difference between turning a service there as a one-off due to late running, turning all services there for a weekend due to a possession... and expecting that same manoeuvre to work all year round.
The only downside with turning in a new Bay at Barnsley (given that solving the capacity constraints at Sheffield is a much bigger problem to tackle) would be passengers for Meadowhall and Sheffield transferring to the following ex-Leeds service. With the restrictions on length caused by platform 17 at Leeds, those services cannot easily be extended.

 

[YorksLad12]

You wouldn't turn back at Brightside... surely if you were terminating at Meadowhall you'd use the crossover on the Barnsley lines and turn back in the platforms?

As others have said or implied: if you were turning straight round, fine; but you probably wouldn't be. Better to use the crossover, drop off on the 'wrong' side (P4), shift out of the way of any late departure/s from Sheffield then glide back in. An additional Meadowhall-Barnsley service just before one of the the semi-fasts would be useful.

A bay platform from the North sounds a real possibility though a bay platform from the south (both could theoretically work) would offer greater options, notably an extension of one of London—Sheffield services that spend time laying over in Barnsley…. Though I do appreciate there are capacity constraints north of Sheffield.

It was something that crossed my mind too, during the great Northern strikes of 2017/18. You'd have to remove part of the bus area (three layover bays) and 15 parking spots (which in a space which could be reconfigured, looking at Google Maps, or even reinstated underneath the platform), but there'd then be space to build a 100m platform on that side, exit via the existing P1. Just a pity that all of the space at Barnsley is on the 'wrong', eastern side if you wanted to create a Penistone bay...

 

[Halifaxlad]

Just came across this
'Line of Route Report Barnsley to Huddersfield via Penistone' published by Network Rail in December 2022 which may give an idea as to what this upgrade is likely to involve.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/regional-long-term-planning/Eastern/Line%20of%20Route%20Report%20Barnsley%20to%20Huddersfield%202022.pdf

Here is an extract from page 8 which interestingly includes a potential new station for Penistone. It also sounds like NR is aspiring to straighten out the track just South of Penistone viaduct!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Hope it's a pretty significant speed improvement provided, if part of achieving it means moving the station further away from the town.

To allow doubling of frequency without adding or extending loops will need a massive upgrade in terms of linespeed.

 

[fishwomp]

Hope it's a pretty significant speed improvement provided, if part of achieving it means moving the station further away from the town.

I can't see a good reason for moving 'south' by more than 25 yards.. The dog's leg is visible on Google maps and just moving the platform 'to the right' by 10 yards (which is actually east at that point) would straighten it.. all within railway land.

To allow doubling of frequency without adding or extending loops will need a massive upgrade in terms of linespeed.

Penistone to Denby Dale being 90mph might not have considered the curves.., but if Pendolinos are becoming spare some time soon...

It was interesting to see the speed profile of the various types of unit on the route - a few seconds here and there..

Another thing they could consider if they really want to improve journey times is driver controlled door opening - the platform theatre the conductor must do costs heavily on a line with as many stops as this - 15 stops excluding Sheffield and Huddersfield. That's 15 x 10 seconds, or 2.5 mins, that'd be a lot of engineering work to get.. Or put another way, if the idea is to get from 75 mins to 60 mins.. 2.5 mins out of 15 mins is a start.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Hope it's a pretty significant speed improvement provided, if part of achieving it means moving the station further away from the town.

I suspect its only as far South to enable the turnout to be removed from the viaduct!

As pointed out by fishwomp above you could move the station Eastwards and achieve the linespeed improvements that NR want to achieve.

I suspect NR is presuming the need to construct a new station South of the existing as similar stations have been done/undertaken prior to the closing of the existing one.

Now Penistone could be done by building a brand new station to the East, laying the track through it then by connecting it when its ready to reopen.

 

[Tim_UK]

I suspect its only as far South to enable the turnout to be removed from the viaduct!

I agree. I wondered if moving the pointwork to the other end of the viaduct would also fix the problem, and extend the loop in the process.

Now Penistone could be done by building a brand new station to the East, laying the track through it then by connecting it when its ready to reopen.

I agree. Better do it soon before they decide to build houses on it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I suspect its only as far South to enable the turnout to be removed from the viaduct!

As pointed out by fishwomp above you could move the station Eastwards and achieve the linespeed improvements that NR want to achieve.

I suspect NR is presuming the need to construct a new station South of the existing as similar stations have been done/undertaken prior to the closing of the existing one.

Now Penistone could be done by building a brand new station to the East, laying the track through it then by connecting it when its ready to reopen.

That wouldn't be too bad in terms of proximity to the town. Hopefully with an increase in parking spaces (for both cars and bikes) too.
I suspect a Morley-style process (possibly with the new up platform constructed prior to laying the track to modify/extend the loop) though, rather than shifting the alignment sideways.

I agree. I wondered if moving the pointwork to the other end of the viaduct would also fix the problem, and extend the loop in the process.

Extending the loop northwards (by direction of travel- it probably isn't actually North at that point) wouldn't really help with timings, as Shepley to Penistone (one intermediate stop) is timetabled at 12 minutes, and 11 minutes in the other direction. Extending in the Barnsley/Sheffield direction will be far more useful, as Barnsley to Penistone (two intermediate stops) takes 22 minutes.

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @fishwomp to update.

 

[fishwomp]

Multiple newspapers and multiple new MPs are reporting that the budget confirmed the funding for the upgrade!

‘Penistone Line’ receives transformative funding

STATIONS and tracks along a well-used train route which passes through Barnsley will benefit from a multi-million pound... Local News News Barnsley South Yorkshire

www.barnsleychronicle.com

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Multiple newspapers and multiple new MPs are reporting that the budget confirmed the funding for the upgrade!

‘Penistone Line’ receives transformative funding

STATIONS and tracks along a well-used train route which passes through Barnsley will benefit from a multi-million pound... Local News News Barnsley South Yorkshire

www.barnsleychronicle.com

Certainly the investment (if it happens) is to be welcomed, but I'm not sure there's that much scope to reducing the journey times within the existing infrastructure. A 2tph service will by itself reduce overall journey times though, simply by reducing the maximum wait times from 59 minutes to 29.

 

[fishwomp]

Certainly the investment (if it happens) is to be welcomed, but I'm not sure there's that much scope to reducing the journey times within the existing infrastructure. A 2tph service will by itself reduce overall journey times though, simply by reducing the maximum wait times from 59 minutes to 29.

I'll certainly find the connections from XC at Sheffield much improved and that will be a bit journey time win - but the idea of being turn up and go instead of planning around schedule is still not how anyone thinks at a 30 mins frequency for a self contained journey!

I'm now almost sure something will happen, but it has been twelve months since first announced, so am wondering what happened in the previous 12 months. Are we at a reset, or somewhere into the design.. who knows! They could blow the budget on a series of bridges with lifts.. that'll do it. Penistone is obviously a likely requirement anyway given the anachronistic foot crossing, and maybe Silkstone.

 

[Killingworth]

Increasing capacity between Huddersfield and Barnsley seems to be where the money is to be spent and that might shave 5 minutes off current schedules?

Barnsley to Meadowhall is used by other services but must have capacity for an extra hourly service.

Meadowhall into Sheffield could be problematic from Nunnery when it comes to scheduling any extra paths. There are other aspirations not least the extra fast Nothern service to Leeds which may start in 2025. Restoring the hourly CrossCountry via Doncaster must soon come and another restoration of the second stopper between Sheffield and Doncaster is possible. An aspiration for an extra service to Hull is less likely to be delivered although the Hull Trains open access Sheffield - Kings Cross proposals seem quite promising. I'll leave Chesterfield - Sheffield via Barrow Hill for now.

Platform space then becomes an issue for services entering Sheffield from the north and east. And that also impacts on anything scheduled to enter and leave from the south and west.

Spend £50m over the next 5-10 years (it will take at least that long to deliver anything and probably cost more) to reduce journey times end to end without capacity to run a second train beyond Barnsley?

Would a second train from Huddersfield to Barnsley with connections there be more practical? Would there be room at Barnsley for a third terminal platform?

Or even run from Huddersfield to Meadowhall where space could be found for a train to layover providing more connections?

 

[fishwomp]

Increasing capacity between Huddersfield and Barnsley seems to be where the money is to be spent and that might shave 5 minutes off current schedules?.

There is a lot more earlier in this thread on what this might all be and earlier studies/ideas from network rail.. What's really needed is an update from Network Rail!

 

[YorksLad12]

Would a second train from Huddersfield to Barnsley with connections there be more practical? Would there be room at Barnsley for a third terminal platform?

Or even run from Huddersfield to Meadowhall where space could be found for a train to layover providing more connections?

I'm sure we've had this conversation before, but... looking at Google Maps (ahem), if you wanted to trim a bit of the bus station and the car park away, you could insert a third platform to the west of the existing northbound one. If you nibbled away 20m of the northbound platform and put track there (and add 20 at the southern end - no level crossing to worry about now), a 100m platform would extend as far as the bridge over the road. That would have the advantage of keeping any Huddersfield-Barnsley shuttles away from other services. The downside is that if you wanted to get a unit off that platform and continue south you'd need some pointwork to get onto the northbound track, run wrong line and then cross again to the southbound line. Messy.

There is what I always thought was a goods line south of Meadowhall on the Barnsley side for laying over, but I've been on Northern services twice now that have used it, either to allow parallel arrivals into Meadowhall from the south (via Barnsley and via Rotherham) or to allow my via Barnsley semi-fast to overtake a via Rotherham stopper waiting for a TPE service to clear the route. I'd rather see Wincobank Junction moved further south to allow such parallel moves all of the time but that would involve digging up the former Brightside Station (and junction) and is well off topic for this thread